• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

News According to E-mails submitted to court by Apple , Tim Sweeney asked Apple for a special deal.

EliteSmurf

Member
Jan 23, 2020
143
1,760
515

Apple responded to Epic Games’ lawsuit accusing it of anticompetitive behavior in how it controls the App Store, telling the court that the Fortnite maker violated Apple’s rules and shouldn’t be placed back into the store temporarily while the legal battle rages.

In its filing, Apple alleges that Epic Games asked for an individual arrangement with Apple, producing three emails from Epic CEO Tim Sweeney that bolster its claim.

This is Apple’s first significant legal response to Epic Games after the dispute between the two companies spilled into the courts. It comes the week after Epic Games released a direct payment mechanism inside Fortnite designed to bypass the App Store’s payment system, from which Apple takes a 30% cut. Apple subsequently removed Fortnite from its store for violating its policies. People who already have Fortnite installed on their iPhones can continue to play, but cannot update or download the app for the first time.

Epic sued it Apple in an attempt to force it to change its business practices and launched a “free Fortnite” marketing campaign portraying Apple as the villain.

Special deal? Sweeney said earlier this month that Epic is not seeking a “special deal” with Apple that other iOS app makers don’t get.

But in Friday’s filing, Apple disputed that point.

“On June 30, 2020, Epic’s CEO Tim Sweeney wrote my colleagues and me an email asking for a ‘side letter’ from Apple that would create a special deal for only Epic that would fundamentally change the way in which Epic offers apps on Apple’s iOS platform,” former Apple Senior Vice President Phil Schiller wrote in a declaration. Schiller, whose title is now Fellow, runs Apple’s App Store.
Apple said Sweeney was asking permission for Epic to bypass in-app purchases and allow Fortnite players to pay it directly. Schiller said that Sweeney emailed him the morning that Fortnite changed its payment mechanism saying that it “will no longer adhere to Apple’s payment processing restrictions.”
“Because of restrictions imposed by Apple, Epic is unable to provide consumers with certain features in our iOS apps,” Sweeney wrote in the June 30 email titled “Consumer Choice & Competition” produced by Apple. It was sent to Apple CEO Tim Cook as well as Schiller and other top Apple executives.
“Apple would need to provide a side letter or alter its contracts and standards documents to remove such restrictions to allow Epic to provide a competing app store and competing payment processing option to iOS customers,” it continued, although the letter did note that “we hope that Apple will also make these options equally available to all iOS developers.”
Epic has asked for a temporary restraining order that would place Fortnite back on the App Store. A hearing on that order is scheduled for Monday in the Northern District of California.
“In the wake of its own voluntary actions, Epic now seeks emergency relief. But the ‘emergency’ is entirely of Epic’s own making,” Apple’s lawyers said in the filing.
Apple says that if Epic were to remove the payment mechanism it introduced, it would allow Fortnite to return to the App Store, and would not disable Epic’s developer account. If Epic were to lose its Apple developer accounts, it would not only be unable to publish Fortnite for iPhones, but it would also hamper the development of the Unreal Engine, software that helps programmers make games, and is used in hundreds of apps from many other companies.
The emails:


Tim Sweeney denied this happening on August 14th.
 

MrFunSocks

Banned
Jul 9, 2020
3,018
5,445
645
Tim Sweeney is only out for Tim Sweeney. He couldn’t give a shit about the customers.

Imagine going in to a store and demanding that they let you open another store inside their shop, where you’ll sell the same things that they sell but cheaper. Oh and telling them that they have to build your shop, and pay for the maintenance and rent.
 

Raymo

Member
May 24, 2013
1,154
35
530
If you actually read the email, he blatantly stated that he hopes Apple makes the features they requested available to ALL iOS developers. Just read the emails in the OP. I think this is going to be a big problem for Apple.

Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.

EDIT: Here, I highlighted it for you...

 
Last edited:

MrS

Member
Apr 6, 2014
9,958
9,854
780
North East, England
To be honest I cant see how anyone but Apple and shareholders can view what Epic is doing as something negative
A lot of people are shocked at how brazenly entitled he's being. He knew the rules before signing the contract. Now after the contract has been signed, he thinks its terms shouldn't apply. That ain't how it works and Epic doesn't need to be on the app store if it no longer wishes to abide by the rules.
 

LordCBH

Member
Jun 4, 2020
2,033
5,075
445
If you actually read the email, he blatantly stated that he hopes Apple makes the features they requested available to ALL iOS developers. Just read the emails in the OP. I think this is going to be a big problem for Apple.

Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.

EDIT: Here, I highlighted it for you...


the way that reads is “please give us this because we want it. Also please make it available to everyone too, but if not hopefully we can at least get it.” That’s what it reads like.
 

VFXVeteran

Industry Professional (Vetted)
Nov 5, 2019
4,953
10,946
780
Hmm.. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I don't like monopoly because that is a danger to capitalism. But on the other hand, it seems like Sweeney is getting greedy. He already put a dent into Valve with getting timed releases on EGS. And now this?
 

Clear

Deer/Dur
Feb 2, 2009
12,507
7,437
1,365
Does it really matter? I mean if Epic gets their way end-users save money and a precedent is set for other big providers to do the same. Apple loses some money but considering they are richer than God and still gouge the fuck out of literally everyone with their excessively priced hardware and software licensing, that's not gonna hurt them.

I don't get the problem.
 
Aug 28, 2019
6,306
12,029
530
“Apple would need to provide a side letter or alter its contracts and standards documents to remove such restrictions to allow Epic to provide a competing app store and competing payment processing option to iOS customers,” it continued, although the letter did note that “we hope that Apple will also make these options equally available to all iOS developers.”

I mean... all of what Sweeney asked for sounds like it would only ever apply to everyone. Why would only Epic get a "competing app store"? And if they did, it would be an app store likely that other devs could use.. and then there's the part where he said he'd hope everyone would get the same rules.
 
Last edited:

Abriael_GN

Member
Feb 26, 2019
2,088
9,702
630
Italy
twinfinite.net


The emails:

Tim Sweeney denied this happening on August 14th.

Only, he did not. He asked for a better deal for ALL iOS developers. You likely should read things before just believing CNBC's misreporting and Schiller's lies.

I have no particular love for Epic Games, but seeing people siding with Apple over this (or anything, really. Apple is probably the only tech company out there that I would unironically call "anti-consumer") is pretty disgusting.
 
Last edited:

MrFunSocks

Banned
Jul 9, 2020
3,018
5,445
645
I mean... all of what Sweeney asked for sounds like it would only ever apply to everyone. Why would only Epic get a "competing app store"? And if they did, it would be an app store likely that other devs could use.. and then there's the part where he said he'd hope everyone would get the same rules.
He asked for special considerations for them to bypass the Apple payment fees and also to let them open a store. He then says he also hopes they’d let others do it too, but that doesn’t mean he’s saying that they need to. He would have been more than happy for them to just grant epic the exemption. You really think he’d be doing this and fighting for everyone else if that got their way? No.
 
  • Like
Reactions: smbu2000
Aug 28, 2019
6,306
12,029
530
Only, he did not. He asked for as better deal for ALL iOS developers. You likely should read things before just believing CNBC's misreporting.

I have no particular love for Epic Games, but seeing people siding with Apple over this (or anything, really. Apple is probably the only tech company out there that I would unironically call "anti-consumer") is pretty disgusting.
I'm confused how anyone can call Apple anti-consumer who also doesn't call Sony/MS the same for their just as if not more restrictive walled gardens?
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Sep 4, 2018
18,550
36,227
885
40
always wondered why this guy was constantly talking about his business on that shitcan of a platform

turns out he was using it to lie to people and his virtue signalling was an attempt to mask shitty shady behavior

imo this is typical of virtual signalers. if you are doing something truly virtuous, you don't really need to tell anyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DunDunDunpachi
Aug 28, 2019
6,306
12,029
530
He asked for special considerations for them to bypass the Apple payment fees and also to let them open a store. He then says he also hopes they’d let others do it too, but that doesn’t mean he’s saying that they need to. He would have been more than happy for them to just grant epic the exemption. You really think he’d be doing this and fighting for everyone else if that got their way? No.

Dude are we reading the same letters? He repeatedly uses terms like "in principle".. and repeatedly generically asks for Apple to change their "restrictions"... it's plainly obvious he's asking for Apple to change their rules, and not asking for a specific "only for Epic" rule change.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kuncol02

Abriael_GN

Member
Feb 26, 2019
2,088
9,702
630
Italy
twinfinite.net
I'm confused how anyone can call Apple anti-consumer who also doesn't call Sony/MS the same for their just as if not more restrictive walled gardens?

It isn't just a matter of the walled garden. Apple has been gouging consumers for years, selling basically the most overpriced hardware on the market and doing literally everything it can to offer less for more. That doesn't apply to Sony and MS.

The sooner it receives a hard blow, the better, and this may just be it.
 
Last edited:
  • Triggered
  • Like
Reactions: Perrott and demigod

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Mar 15, 2007
15,185
3,836
1,740
If you actually read the email, he blatantly stated that he hopes Apple makes the features they requested available to ALL iOS developers. Just read the emails in the OP. I think this is going to be a big problem for Apple.

Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.

EDIT: Here, I highlighted it for you...

If Epic manages to get a free route to transact payments on mobile, they can use their same PC store strategy to lock exclusives. This isn’t a benefit for the consumers. Tencent is funding all of this to eventually have a monopoly over gaming habits data. Data is incredibly valuable as it lets you be always a step ahead of the competition.
 
Last edited:

DaGwaphics

Member
Dec 29, 2019
3,659
4,976
505
What I would like to know is when has Apple ever been a platform built on openness.

With that said, I think the walled gardens provided by mobile stores should remain, at least to the level provided by Android. Maintain the option to only allow vetted apps to be installed unless a specific choice is made to allow otherwise. Security is a major issue, especially for certain companies with a lot of ties to other companies, cough, cough.
 

Zefah

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2007
44,603
25,684
1,805
Of course he did. This whole act about Epic being some kind of champion of fairness in the industry is bullshit. They just want to use their competitive advantage to strong arm partners so they can make more money.
 
Last edited:

MrFunSocks

Banned
Jul 9, 2020
3,018
5,445
645
Dude are we reading the same letters? He repeatedly uses terms like "in principle".. and repeatedly generically asks for Apple to change their "restrictions"... it's plainly obvious he's asking for Apple to change their rules, and not asking for a specific "only for Epic" rule change.
His email asks for Apple to let Epic do those things, and then also says he’d like it if they let others do it as well. They’re 2 separate things. He wouldn’t be fighting this fight if they said ok to epic but no to everyone else because all he cares about is epic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Endless Fluff

showernota

Member
Jun 6, 2020
3,167
9,371
600
If he said in the email that all other developers should have the same options I can respect that. I'll admit I'm very biased against Apple though.
 

Entroyp

Member
Jul 28, 2017
4,099
11,157
550
Open platforms for all developers? And you were asking for an exclusive deal? That doesn’t add up...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CyRuZ
Aug 28, 2019
6,306
12,029
530
It isn't just a matter of the walled garden. Apple has been gouging consumers for years, selling basically the most overpriced hardware on the market and doing literally everything it can to offer less for more. That doesn't apply to Sony and MS.

The sooner it receives a hard blow, the better, and this may just be it.
MS and Sony went from big loss leaders to attempting to profit off of us day one this past gen.. hence the absolute dogshit Jaguar CPUs we dealt with all generation. There's also Nintendo on the market, whose always been profit margin focused.

Yes, Apple has pushed hardware profit margins way beyond what most companies have... their products also have much higher resale value, are incredibly popular, have high user satisfaction. People are also getting a device that actually performs just as well... that $100 profit margin Samsung phone isn't actually doing anything better/faster than the $300 profit margin Apple phone... your smaller battery lasts just as long, your "less powerful/cheaper" chips runs the same games/apps just as well/better.

Apple is just the most successful at what every other company is trying to do.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: smbu2000

Abriael_GN

Member
Feb 26, 2019
2,088
9,702
630
Italy
twinfinite.net
MS and Sony went from big loss leaders to attempting to profit off of us day one this past gen.. hence the absolute dogshit Jaguar CPUs we dealt with all generation. There's also Nintendo on the market, whose always been profit margin focused.

Yes, Apple has pushed hardware profit margins way beyond what most companies have... their products also have much higher resale value, are incredibly popular, have high user satisfaction. People are also getting a device that actually performs just as well... that $100 profit margin Samsung phone isn't actually doing anything better/faster than the $300 profit margin Apple phone... your smaller battery lasts just as long, your "less powerful/cheaper" chips runs the same games/apps just as well/better.

Apple is just the most successful at what every other company is trying to do.

"If other companies were in Apple's position they'd do the same!"

History isn't made with IFs. For now Apple is the prime example of selling underpowered hardware for more. When other companies will do it, I'll think about getting on their case. For now, there's one company that needs a harsh lesson, and that's Apple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kuncol02

Endless Fluff

Member
Feb 27, 2017
1,271
2,382
575
Germany
If you actually read the email, he blatantly stated that he hopes Apple makes the features they requested available to ALL iOS developers. Just read the emails in the OP. I think this is going to be a big problem for Apple.

Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.

EDIT: Here, I highlighted it for you...

Well, yeah... he hopes that apple will make that available to others, but first before the others he IS asking for special treatment. He asks for the Epic Game Store being an alternative store on iOS. He asks for special treatment for all Epic Games.

It doesn't really matter that he hopes for what comes after that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fuz and CyRuZ
Aug 28, 2019
6,306
12,029
530
"If other companies were in Apple's position they'd do the same!"

History isn't made with IFs. For now Apple is the prime example of selling underpowered hardware for more. When other companies will do it, I'll think about getting on their case. For now, there's one company that needs a harsh lesson, and that's Apple.

That's a bad paraphrasing of what I said.

They are all doing the same thing.. Apple is the most successful at it. They all have walled gardens, are all looking to force devs to pay them to use said gardens, are all looking to make money on hardware too. There is no "IF" here.
 
Last edited:

Estocolmo

Member
Jul 24, 2012
1,356
131
610
Stockholm
If you actually read the email, he blatantly stated that he hopes Apple makes the features they requested available to ALL iOS developers. Just read the emails in the OP. I think this is going to be a big problem for Apple.

Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.

EDIT: Here, I highlighted it for you...


yes he “hopes” Apple will make the feature available to all developers, or else he is going to force Apple by Taking them to court.
 

SlimeGooGoo

Member
Jun 29, 2020
1,994
5,704
550
Reading the replies in here that are instantly dog pilling Epic without digging into the details is depressing.
Wait, there are people here that actually bother reading and using their brain to to think critically and make informed decisions?

Never expected to see this here.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
Jan 2, 2007
18,688
9,812
1,695
Umm, duh? Of course he asked for a special deal before going with the nuclear option.
 
Aug 28, 2019
6,306
12,029
530
His email asks for Apple to let Epic do those things, and then also says he’d like it if they let others do it as well. They’re 2 separate things. He wouldn’t be fighting this fight if they said ok to epic but no to everyone else because all he cares about is epic.
I mean Tim Sweeny is a blowhard who hasn't shut up about open platforms since MS first introduces Windows Store so yeah I think he'd at least still not shut up about it even if he got a "special deal" lol. Yes he managed to leave room for a "special deal" and it makes him look slimy.. but it's pretty ridiculous to leave out that he also repeatedly clearly is just asking for a generic rule change.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kuncol02