Yeah but short skirts aren't the problem with female representation in media.
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Anime art style games with no sexualized characters?
- Thread starter Salsa
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Luminous_Reaver
Neo Member
There should be an internet law requiring all sarcasm to be italicized, because I agree with everything you said, but I have an itch that tells me you may not have been aiming for that.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
That it's integrated into the story doesn't make her any less of a sexualized character, nor does it remove any of the countless fanservice scenes involving all the girls in both Persona 4 and Golden.
What exactly is the context to Chie and Yukiko appearing in swimsuits? Er...they cooked the boys bad food so to make up for it, Brosuke emotionally blackmails them into wearing them. Followed by scenes of compliments, wolf whistles and a hentai bloody nose from Kanji. All in the name of plot progress.
I don't really think I can criticize Rise's character design all that much - It is essentially concept art after all. A lot of that come from the idea that the character they were trying to make was a popular model/idol style character. Hence, the crazy proportions.
The important thing is that the character design doesn't really become part of the game. With the style of the rest of the game, her proportions never stand out at any point, and I don't think I ever even looked at her skirt a single time. She just ends up looking like the image I posted. EDIT: There's also the whole point of her arc - Which was basically her getting tired of the way people see her in the media.
Also, it doesn't help that google images is made up of 70% fanart.
Ugh. OK, first, here's what I wrote before:
Short skits are a problem because of how many of the designs in this thread include a girl with a super short skirt. I don't know about you - But if I'd join an army or went to fight monsters or whatever I'll probably no want to wear a skirt barely reaching my mid thighs. This not a question about what I think of the human body, but how game designers (and by this thread, clearly gamers as well) perceive women.
And yeah, I can totally see as how a character with a non-feminine body and no sexual characteristics can relate to women who's outfit include 40% skin. Really, quite the amazing argument there.
It was sarcasm, and do we all live in the same world? where a game designer can freely say he understand "a game needs to have (male-oriented) eye-candy"? That's a made up problem?
No pants? too lewd
Exactly. People are completely missing the actual issue here by focussing way too much on superficial und ultimately irrelevant details.
oh god not this again.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
I agree.
Hi,
Rise is a support character. Also, one of the themes in her character arc is being a direct victim of sexualization in media.
Hope this helps. I know playing the game would.
IIRC crazy proportions is a Soejima thing that is in the art for all the characters. What Soejima did to make her that popular model/idol style character was give her pigtails, a hair style he considered to fit and echo that idol style character.
Paraphrasing though.
I'm not attacking the game, or the people who play it or even the people who like it. Throughout the thread I said that a sexualized character design can make sense. Does it in this case? Probably, I didn't play the game and I have no reason to not believe you.
What I said in the very post your quoted had nothing to do with this Rise or that game at all.
Thanks, hope that helps.
Yeah, rough drafts and all while he was trying to figure out how to make her stand out IIRC.
It was a reply to a reply about Rise which was a reply about Rise. It has everything to do with her actually.
Also, I'm not saying you're attacking anything. Just that you're wrong starting here:
Because you have to play the game to judge the design, as this shows.
Most male gamers aren't 90% muscle, either. Why are they playing dudebro games then considering they can't relate to the protagonists? Because that's actually not what many games are all about. They're about escapism, wish fulfillment, power fantasies and shit, and the characters are larger-than-life ideals. Guess why the old Lara Croft had so many female fans?
UGH. This is why my post has nothing to do with her:
A disclaimer I posted in my first or second post in this thread, explaining how I can only judge whether a design is sexualized or not (which I very much can regardless of playing the game) - Not whether it's justified in the context. You claim it's justified in context, I believe you.
I then went on to explain why the short skirts are a problem - Not because they are inherently problematic, but because virtually all skirts in gaming are mini skirts and almost all female character wear them even what it make no sense whatsoever. It has nothing to do with Rise, her design, or the game she is from which might be one of those few rare instances where a game actually treats its female characters with respect.
Uh-huh, and you think it's good that many game that are about living a macho fantasy where all men are bags of muscles and all women are talking sex toys?
Also, you think Lara Croft was designed with female players in mind? Haha, OK there buddy.
I'll say this straight up: Yeah it is. It's actually one of the rare instances for a lot of things. Including sexual identity confusion, and transgender issues.
It's probably partially why you now have fans of the game defending Rise so much - It's almost unmatched at making you care about characters. By the end of the game a lot of players end up feeling like they won't be seeing their friends again.
I agree with what you are saying in principle though.
Ah, I love playing along with threads like this. It's like anime Jeopardy!, where the answer is given and we spend the thread trying to figure out the question.
My submissions:
Umihara Kawase. Pictured is the upcoming 3DS game. A long-runing series since SNES. I've only completed the PS1 version though. Boxart here to prove anime-ness.
Princess Maker. Pictured is PM2, the only one I've completed. I wanted to use an image from the newest one (5), but I figured some people would complain about the Gainax crossover costumes.
All the Precure games. Pictured is the DS GoGo game, because finding screenshots is hard. I wanted to post the new dancing game for Wii, but someone would call out the spats and absolute territory. Even though it's rated CERO A!
The last one is kind of cheating (it's a series for kids), but the first two are definitely for adult players, and all 3 have sufficiently generic artstyles (which the OP seems to want).
My submissions:
Umihara Kawase. Pictured is the upcoming 3DS game. A long-runing series since SNES. I've only completed the PS1 version though. Boxart here to prove anime-ness.
Princess Maker. Pictured is PM2, the only one I've completed. I wanted to use an image from the newest one (5), but I figured some people would complain about the Gainax crossover costumes.
All the Precure games. Pictured is the DS GoGo game, because finding screenshots is hard. I wanted to post the new dancing game for Wii, but someone would call out the spats and absolute territory. Even though it's rated CERO A!
The last one is kind of cheating (it's a series for kids), but the first two are definitely for adult players, and all 3 have sufficiently generic artstyles (which the OP seems to want).
I wasn't sarcastic (honestly!), I really do believe you guys this game is different. But this game wasn't my point, and the fact that it does treats women with respect doesn't mean all games do.
Honey, please. Princess Maker 2 is absolutely sexualized. And I don't just mean the "hidden costume."
Princess Maker. Pictured is PM2, the only one I've completed. I wanted to use an image from the newest one (5), but I figured some people would complain about the Gainax crossover costumes.
KojiKnight
Member
Was going to say this as well.
I think he's overcompensating for something.
If I was a porn star, this would be my stage name. Just sayin'.
Pretty Cure is also rather sexualized.
I don't think it's good or bad, actually. It's just what it is and what a large percentage of the consumers want. Games are a form of entertainment after all. Nothing wrong with that.
Also, no, Lara was probably not designed with female players in mind - not that it makes any difference. Regardless of who designed her or which audience the designer had in mind, it appealed to female gamers. And the reason this happened is entirely logical in retrospect. To quote Lara's designer, Toby Gard:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toby_Gard
Care to show numbers showing how popular Lara Croft is among women? Because from what I know she is infamous as an go-to example of over-sexualized representation of women in media.
If this thread has reached the point of denying the negative representation of women in gaming and media, you guys should just go all the way - Why not deny the gender gap all together? Just say misogyny is over, we all now live in the perfectly harmonious age where your gender is irrelevant, right?
Well, thinking more about it, I suppose that's so. But she's your daughter! I certainly don't sexualize my daughters. It's just not the way I think about those games. From an uninvested perspective, though, you're right. It was a poor example.
dude said:
I can't agree with this at all, though. It's a wholesome series for kids. They don't even wear swimsuits at the beach.
Precure is many shows with different character designers; the look of its characters varies a lot.
Fresh:
...and Smile:
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Corpse party seems to fit the bill.
One of the best sim games to come from the east and make it to the west, but yeah. It wouldn't affect the game whatsoever if they had simply removed all the lolicon aspects of it and kept it purely innocent.
I don't know if any polls have been taken, but Lara Croft is often cited as a symbol of female empowerment. Maybe not as often as she's cited as a male fantasy, but still. She's supposed to be smart, capable, beautiful, rich, and perhaps most importantly, independent.
This interpretation was made even more evident by the whole "protect Lara Croft" fiasco.
Barbie is also a doll for kids. Over-sexualization from early age has been a key part in establishing female gender roles for some quite time now.
It's usually cited as a female empowerment symbol by gamers. I mean, I won't deny she represents some progress with the very fact that she is a female protagonist, but she is designed to look more like a playboy model than a "smart, capable, independent" woman. And the "protect Lara" fiasco just shows that even the design team doesn't treat her as what you're implying she symbolizes.
Like the hat?
Banned
Does wind waker count?
Like a few have said already--context, context,context.
Criticizing Rise's sexuality in Persona 4 is actually really funny if you have played the game. Her entire character arc is about coming to terms with being a pop idol and people's preconceptions about her. The bathing suit picture is from a commercial the very beginning of the game when the main character walks past televisions all around town (a strong thematic element of the game). Her dungeon, a physical structure embodiment of her insecurities is a strip club.
Her shadow, the personification of her insecurities.
So yes she is sexualized for her job, but the point of her character is to overcome her lack of a personal identity and her self hatred caused by that. After defeating her shadow, she gets her persona
I'm all for criticizing overbearing or creepy sexualization, but when it's thematically relevant I don't see it as a problem. That applies from Persona 4 to Bayonetta. Pick your battles, because criticizing things too casually ends up devaluing your overall argument.
As for finding nonsexualized anime-style game characters, I can't think of many. So let's just go with Persona 3 and 4. Golden added in a few cutscenes that crossed the tackiness line for me though.
Criticizing Rise's sexuality in Persona 4 is actually really funny if you have played the game. Her entire character arc is about coming to terms with being a pop idol and people's preconceptions about her. The bathing suit picture is from a commercial the very beginning of the game when the main character walks past televisions all around town (a strong thematic element of the game). Her dungeon, a physical structure embodiment of her insecurities is a strip club.
Her shadow, the personification of her insecurities.
So yes she is sexualized for her job, but the point of her character is to overcome her lack of a personal identity and her self hatred caused by that. After defeating her shadow, she gets her persona
I'm all for criticizing overbearing or creepy sexualization, but when it's thematically relevant I don't see it as a problem. That applies from Persona 4 to Bayonetta. Pick your battles, because criticizing things too casually ends up devaluing your overall argument.
As for finding nonsexualized anime-style game characters, I can't think of many. So let's just go with Persona 3 and 4. Golden added in a few cutscenes that crossed the tackiness line for me though.
Yotsuba& is not an anime brah
Some Precure designs are sexualized, but not all of them. Like I said, Precure shows have different character designers working on them. Fresh indeed tries to make the character "sexier", but I don't think how can you make an argument for Yes 5 or Futari wa:
The characters don't have shapely legs or bodies and they all wear shorts under their skirts.
I'm not entirely sure I would put Bayonetta and Persona 4 in the same category, as much as I see your point.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
lol did you not get very far in the game?
Princess Maker. Pictured is PM2, the only one I've completed. I wanted to use an image from the newest one (5), but I figured some people would complain about the Gainax crossover costumes.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Corpse party seems to fit the bill.
You must have missed the pantyshots.
I'm saying the amount of sexualization in both games is dependent on the tone. Bayonetta isn't meant to be taken seriously.
They are more accessible than 1 and 2. I think the reason they come up so much is because people want to recruit more people to the SMT cult, and the more contemporary Persona 3 and 4 are easier to get people to try.
