Teknopathetic
Member
Geek topic to the max. Well? Thoughts? Suggestions?
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Anyone ever played D20 Modern?
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shoplifter
Member
I own it, but haven't used it. Seems ok, though I must admit even though I run d20/3e D&D, I'm not that fond of class/level systems in general.
I'm slowly weaning my players off it and to stuff like HERO System and The Burning Wheel, where you're not quite so stuck with archetypes.
If you're looking for something that's pretty quick without lots of bookeeping the new World of Darkness stuff from White Wolf would be an excellent way to go. It can be run completely without the vamps/werewolves/mages and such if you so desire.
If you're a real number cruncher, Hero would be something nice to check out. They've got a 128 page basic handbook called Sidekick that will get you going for only $10 to see if you like it or not. You can literally create anything with the system once you learn how, and you're not shoehorned into one particular mold. The main book is $39, but that's the same price as d20 Modern iirc, and the book is like 600 pages, plus you can use it for any genre. Their setting/genre books are fucking outstanding. Its only intimidating until you actually start using it, and then it's super smooth in play.
Lemme know what kinds of things you're looking for, since I'm not sure where you're coming from as far as your gaming background and what you want in a game. I'll be happy to help you out.
edit: also I don't know if this is a 'sell me on X' thread or a 'i've got x, give me ideas' thread.
I'm slowly weaning my players off it and to stuff like HERO System and The Burning Wheel, where you're not quite so stuck with archetypes.
If you're looking for something that's pretty quick without lots of bookeeping the new World of Darkness stuff from White Wolf would be an excellent way to go. It can be run completely without the vamps/werewolves/mages and such if you so desire.
If you're a real number cruncher, Hero would be something nice to check out. They've got a 128 page basic handbook called Sidekick that will get you going for only $10 to see if you like it or not. You can literally create anything with the system once you learn how, and you're not shoehorned into one particular mold. The main book is $39, but that's the same price as d20 Modern iirc, and the book is like 600 pages, plus you can use it for any genre. Their setting/genre books are fucking outstanding. Its only intimidating until you actually start using it, and then it's super smooth in play.
Lemme know what kinds of things you're looking for, since I'm not sure where you're coming from as far as your gaming background and what you want in a game. I'll be happy to help you out.
edit: also I don't know if this is a 'sell me on X' thread or a 'i've got x, give me ideas' thread.
Teknopathetic
Member
Well, I'm pretty much looking for a modern setting (naturally), I've been thumbing through my pal's rulebook and I like some of the things I see (wealth modifier instead of number crunching gold, etc.), and it seems to just be a "faster" game in general than say a DnD game would progress. Bookkeeping I don't mind (so much), however, for the most part I'm looking for things to be weary of with D20 Modern.
It's a "I've indefinitely borrowed a friend's book and am looking for some general guidelines/suggestions" thread. I've already got story, blah blah in the works.
It's a "I've indefinitely borrowed a friend's book and am looking for some general guidelines/suggestions" thread. I've already got story, blah blah in the works.
shoplifter
Member
From what I can tell, it'll be fine for trying to emulate stuff like the A-Team and all that. I'm assuming you probably dont' want to go all Shadowrun, but if you do, picking up Urban Arcana and/or the Menace Manual wouldn't hurt since Urban Arcana is pretty much a rip of Shadowrun with Dark Elves.
Here are some reviews of it if you're interested in getting an in-depth look:
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7479.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7497.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7557.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7835.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7526.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7827.html
I also think the wealth modifier works pretty well for modern games, since it helps to take into account credit and whatnot. It's a good simulation of a more fluid economy that's present in the modern day.
One suggestion: rather than using a d20 for skill/attack rolls, consider using 2d10 or 3d6 (i'll try to dig up the rules changes for using 3d6 rather than a d20 and post them tomorrow, it's in Unearthed Arcana 3e if you have that). This makes skills levels more important since rolls will be on a bell curve (centered on 11) rather than a totally flat 1-20 random scale. Some people prefer the randomness, but I like a mechanism in which people can be relatively predictable under most circumstances, and using a bell curve for checks provides that.
Here are some reviews of it if you're interested in getting an in-depth look:
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7479.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7497.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7557.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7835.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7526.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7827.html
I also think the wealth modifier works pretty well for modern games, since it helps to take into account credit and whatnot. It's a good simulation of a more fluid economy that's present in the modern day.
One suggestion: rather than using a d20 for skill/attack rolls, consider using 2d10 or 3d6 (i'll try to dig up the rules changes for using 3d6 rather than a d20 and post them tomorrow, it's in Unearthed Arcana 3e if you have that). This makes skills levels more important since rolls will be on a bell curve (centered on 11) rather than a totally flat 1-20 random scale. Some people prefer the randomness, but I like a mechanism in which people can be relatively predictable under most circumstances, and using a bell curve for checks provides that.
Teknopathetic
Member
Thanks for the links, etc. I'll look up the 3d6 and other dice variants, though. That's a very interesting ideal.
shoplifter
Member
Tre said:
If you don't have the book, I'll type it up for you tomorrow.
Teknopathetic
Member
I know a buddy of mine has Unearthed Arcana, but I think it's for 3.5.
shoplifter
Member
Tre said:
That's the book I'm talking about. It'll work plently fine.
Crag Dweller
aka kindbudmaster
Not to take this off topic, but I quit playing right around when the 2nd edition came out, so I'm out of the loop. Can you still buy game modules for the new system? Do you still need a bag full of different dice? For those of you that are familar with the different editions how radical have the changes been? Has it been a total reworking or just fine tuning to the system? I had a great time playing ad&d in the early/mid 80's, and I'm glad to hear that some here are still enjoying it today.
shoplifter
Member
Hey, sup. I also enjoyed playing in the mid 80s.
AC now goes UP instead of down, and starts at 10, modified by Dex and armor.
THAC0 no longer exists, nor do the old school matrices. Instead, each class has a 'base attack bonus' that goes up as they level. Fighter types increase by one every level, clerics/rogues every three out of four, and mages every other level.
You add this number, your STR bonus (or dex if ranged), and any other modifiers like weapon bonuses to a d20 roll. If you roll equal or higher than the AC you hit. So much better than the old way.
For every +5 you have in BAB, you get an extra attack, so at 20th level fighter types get 4 attacks per round, clerics 3, mages 2. This is assuming they do nothing else.
There are now things called 'feats' which are selected every third level (fighters get bonuses from a selected list as well). These allow you to do things like increase you movement rate, make an extra attack against an adjacent foe whenever you kill something (like a follow-through attack), or modify the parameters of a spell you're casting.
Skills are completely different that the old non-weapon proficiencies, which I loathed. Each class gets a certain number of points each level that they can spend on 'ranks' in skills. These skills are checked by a d20 roll + number of ranks + bonus from relevant stat (the skill 'Spot' has Wisdom as it's relevant stat) vs. a target number for whatever is being done.
Yes, you can still get modules, though you'd have to do a good bit of work to convert them backward. WotC (the Magic people) bought TSR when they were about to go belly up, and basically made it possible for any company that wished to publish 3rd edition D&D material, which is a fairly large about face from the old TSR policies. There is a shitton of material out and on shelves (some great, some good, some bad, some VERY BAD) including sourcebooks and adventure modules.
In fact, you can actually get the rules for FREE RIGHT HERE if you'd like to give them a read. Stuff like deity names and character names (like in spells - Melf, Mordenkainen, Tenser, etc.) aren't in there since they're reserved for WotC's use, but the spells are there without the names (Acid Arrow and the like)
I heartily recommend stuff from Necromancer Games, as those guys really make stuff that feels like 1st edition AD&D using the 3rd edition ruleset. If you remember the old Judge's Guild stuff, they're re-releasing the Wilderlands and City State stuff right now.
If you ever played in Forgotten Realms, it's now a huge clusterfuck and seemingly every bartender is a level 14 character. Power Creep really has set in over the years, but the quality of the sourcebooks that come out for the setting is still top notch.
Greyhawk is still around, but it's pretty much abandonded by WotC. They however, handed the world over to a player-run worldwide Living campaign,
edit: oh yeah, you don't have to color the numbers on your dice with a crayon anymore
AC now goes UP instead of down, and starts at 10, modified by Dex and armor.
THAC0 no longer exists, nor do the old school matrices. Instead, each class has a 'base attack bonus' that goes up as they level. Fighter types increase by one every level, clerics/rogues every three out of four, and mages every other level.
You add this number, your STR bonus (or dex if ranged), and any other modifiers like weapon bonuses to a d20 roll. If you roll equal or higher than the AC you hit. So much better than the old way.
For every +5 you have in BAB, you get an extra attack, so at 20th level fighter types get 4 attacks per round, clerics 3, mages 2. This is assuming they do nothing else.
There are now things called 'feats' which are selected every third level (fighters get bonuses from a selected list as well). These allow you to do things like increase you movement rate, make an extra attack against an adjacent foe whenever you kill something (like a follow-through attack), or modify the parameters of a spell you're casting.
Skills are completely different that the old non-weapon proficiencies, which I loathed. Each class gets a certain number of points each level that they can spend on 'ranks' in skills. These skills are checked by a d20 roll + number of ranks + bonus from relevant stat (the skill 'Spot' has Wisdom as it's relevant stat) vs. a target number for whatever is being done.
Yes, you can still get modules, though you'd have to do a good bit of work to convert them backward. WotC (the Magic people) bought TSR when they were about to go belly up, and basically made it possible for any company that wished to publish 3rd edition D&D material, which is a fairly large about face from the old TSR policies. There is a shitton of material out and on shelves (some great, some good, some bad, some VERY BAD) including sourcebooks and adventure modules.
In fact, you can actually get the rules for FREE RIGHT HERE if you'd like to give them a read. Stuff like deity names and character names (like in spells - Melf, Mordenkainen, Tenser, etc.) aren't in there since they're reserved for WotC's use, but the spells are there without the names (Acid Arrow and the like)
I heartily recommend stuff from Necromancer Games, as those guys really make stuff that feels like 1st edition AD&D using the 3rd edition ruleset. If you remember the old Judge's Guild stuff, they're re-releasing the Wilderlands and City State stuff right now.
If you ever played in Forgotten Realms, it's now a huge clusterfuck and seemingly every bartender is a level 14 character. Power Creep really has set in over the years, but the quality of the sourcebooks that come out for the setting is still top notch.
Greyhawk is still around, but it's pretty much abandonded by WotC. They however, handed the world over to a player-run worldwide Living campaign,
edit: oh yeah, you don't have to color the numbers on your dice with a crayon anymore
Crag Dweller
aka kindbudmaster
Thanks for the info shoplifter. That covered everything I wanted to know. Sounds like it's a hell of alot easier to get started than it used to be. My oldest son's birthday is coming up next month, and there are enough kids here everyday playing xbox lan to get a game going, maybe I'll get a big table and enough books and stuff to start them out with. Next time I take him to the comic book shop I'll check out the roleplaying section and see what they have.
Thanks again for the reply, you wouldn't believe how much this forum has helped me stay connected to my sons with all the music/comics/anime recommendations I get from here. This place is like a goldmine!!!
Thanks again for the reply, you wouldn't believe how much this forum has helped me stay connected to my sons with all the music/comics/anime recommendations I get from here. This place is like a goldmine!!!
Having played various forms of D+D since the old basic red box days, I have to say the 3rd Edition has completley reinvigorated my love for the franchise. I've been playing various 3e games for a while now, and recently went back and played through Baldur's Gate 2; holy crap, I forgot how cludgy 2e was. In no way is 3e perfect- we are still dealing with a class level system that results in demigods- but it sure is a far more cohesive set of rules. Far easier for new players to acclimate to, I think.
Shoplifter you have some good taste- HERO/champions took me through high school. Went through at least three copies of the old hardbound champions book back in the early 90's... Champions in particular remains my favorite pnp game...if I could find local players, I'd fire that up again. Fun stuff. I saw the latest HERO rulebook recently and nearly bought the damn thing just to own it.
What do you think of Eberron? I'm not sure, personally, that low level Final Fantasy is what D+D needed, myself...
Shoplifter you have some good taste- HERO/champions took me through high school. Went through at least three copies of the old hardbound champions book back in the early 90's... Champions in particular remains my favorite pnp game...if I could find local players, I'd fire that up again. Fun stuff. I saw the latest HERO rulebook recently and nearly bought the damn thing just to own it.
:lol Those were the days.shoplifter said:
What do you think of Eberron? I'm not sure, personally, that low level Final Fantasy is what D+D needed, myself...
shoplifter
Member
^^^^ nice timing i was writing this as you were editing
KBM:
If you decide to pick up a setting book, let me recommed Eberron. It came out mid last year. WotC did a contest for a new setting and got some ungodly number of submissions. This is what they went with.
I said I'd hate it when it was announced, but I picked it up anyway and totally love it. It basically asks the question 'How is the world affected by all this magic?' So you've got stuff like airships/boats/trains using bound elementals to fuel them, lampposts using continuual light, courtrooms with permanent Zone of Truth spells and such.
AND HALFLINGS RIDING FUCKING DINOSAURS.
It's got this cool noir/indiana jones feel to it, and there's lots of unexplored land to make your own. You can run dungeon crawls, political games, or basically whatever you want out of it and it'll be just fine.
I'm also a big fan of Kenzer's Kingdoms of Kalamar setting. It's a lot like Greyhawk, only a bit more subdued and cohesively designed. I don't know how old your kids are, but it might be a little too dry for their tastes, whereas Eberron should satisfy them if they're into Anime and the like.
KBM:
If you decide to pick up a setting book, let me recommed Eberron. It came out mid last year. WotC did a contest for a new setting and got some ungodly number of submissions. This is what they went with.
I said I'd hate it when it was announced, but I picked it up anyway and totally love it. It basically asks the question 'How is the world affected by all this magic?' So you've got stuff like airships/boats/trains using bound elementals to fuel them, lampposts using continuual light, courtrooms with permanent Zone of Truth spells and such.
AND HALFLINGS RIDING FUCKING DINOSAURS.
It's got this cool noir/indiana jones feel to it, and there's lots of unexplored land to make your own. You can run dungeon crawls, political games, or basically whatever you want out of it and it'll be just fine.
I'm also a big fan of Kenzer's Kingdoms of Kalamar setting. It's a lot like Greyhawk, only a bit more subdued and cohesively designed. I don't know how old your kids are, but it might be a little too dry for their tastes, whereas Eberron should satisfy them if they're into Anime and the like.
shoplifter
Member
And Tre, here's the 3d6 stuff, just the jist of it:
1) Autofail for attacks and saves on 3, autosucceed on 18. Neither will happen as often as 1 or 20 on a d20.
2) Instead of taking 10 or 20 on a skill check, you can take 16 which takes 10 times as long, or take 18 which takes 100 times as long.
3) Threat ranges are changed as follows:
old: 20 new: 16-18
old: 19-20 new: 15-18
old: 18-20 new: 14-18
old: 17-20 new: 14-18
old: 15-20 new: 13-18
I'd leave the action points from d20 modern as-is.
1) Autofail for attacks and saves on 3, autosucceed on 18. Neither will happen as often as 1 or 20 on a d20.
2) Instead of taking 10 or 20 on a skill check, you can take 16 which takes 10 times as long, or take 18 which takes 100 times as long.
3) Threat ranges are changed as follows:
old: 20 new: 16-18
old: 19-20 new: 15-18
old: 18-20 new: 14-18
old: 17-20 new: 14-18
old: 15-20 new: 13-18
I'd leave the action points from d20 modern as-is.
Can't argue with that. Nope. I'll go read through my copy again, perhaps I was distracted by the low-level focus. Which I understand, by the way, after the travesty the Realms became.shoplifter said:
Shoplifter how does the 3d6 system work in practice? The math seems solid, but I'm curious to know how it works in real play.
Teknopathetic
Member
I'd like to know as well. I'm mulling over using it if it'll put more focus on how someone developed their skills rather than random luck/unlock.
Crag Dweller
aka kindbudmaster
The oldest will be 14 next month and the rest of the kids range from 16 to 12(my second oldest son). Reading that link you posted along with other stuff I read about 3rd edition this morning has got my juices flowing to play again myself. If I can set aside some time maybe I'll dm the first adventure for them to help get them started. I'll be sure to look for Eberron when I go hunt down the books and stuff we'll need. If we have time today I'll make a trip to the shop and see what I can find. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction.
shoplifter
Member
Tre said:
To be honest, I haven't used it yet for D&D. I -will- be using it in our upcoming game though, which will be the weekend after this. I'd imagine that it makes things more powerful than the PCs a little stronger, and those that are less powerful a little weaker, due to the averaging out of attacks/saves, since there's a roughly 64% chance that the roll will be in the 8-13 range, instead of the 30% chance you get with a d20.
If I remember I'll try to post after our game with how it went. I could see this being a little better for modern day games though, rather than fantasy where you sometimes like to see lots of variation.
The only real problem I may have with using it are the skill caps that 3e puts on characters (level + 3) in total ranks. I'd almost recommend doubling the cap (to level + 5) in ranks to help alleviate this. Skill caps are one of the biggest things I hate about 3rd, because (at least by the rules) a master smith has a bunch of extra hit dice because he's really good at making horseshoes. I don't give a fuck if that cooper is a 10th level Expert, he still has no more than two hit dice.
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