Astral Dog
Member
i feel like this gen has barely started, software wise
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Are Sony and Microsoft resetting the clock for this gen with PS4 Pro and Scorpio?
- Thread starter family_guy
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MisterXDTV
Member
You are not wrong, development time for any kind of game is increasing so this gen has A LOT more to give.
Sony is clearly trying to extend it with PS4 Pro.
Microsoft wants to kill it right now, but at the same time they don't want to piss off Xbox One users that trusted them since 2013 and now with the new S model
paragonpro
Banned
Microsoft maybe but i dont think sony is
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Well yeah, a CPU upgrade will be an obvious addition in a true next gen console however many years from now.
But let's say an 8TF PS5, this is not going to be a big enough jump over the new Xbox to be considered truly next gen (or worthwhile doing). And that's probably about the far as they could go on 14nm without breaking the bank, or running into technical issues.
So as I said, we most likely wont see a true next gen console until AMD has a smaller node process available. Which won't be for a good while.
And no, I don't know why people are calling the Scorpio a next gen machine either. It kind of is hardware wise, but other than that it's the same deal as the Neo.
Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony are all releasing brand new hardware. New GPUs, New CPUs, smaller nodes ect.
The Next generation is starting in 2017. It's just a minor jump, and The beginning of iterative consoles with a shared OS.
The biggest issue is that consumers aren't ready for a next gen. So the marketing is its gen 8.5.
However realistically it's Gen 9 in everything but name
The Next generation is starting in 2017. It's just a minor jump, and The beginning of iterative consoles with a shared OS.
The biggest issue is that consumers aren't ready for a next gen. So the marketing is its gen 8.5.
However realistically it's Gen 9 in everything but name
Yep!
I thought Sony made it clear, after telling us for 5 billion times, that the PS4 Pro is just a PS4. Nothing more. A more powerful PS4 for better graphics.... and that's it. The PS5 will come in 2019/2020 and it will reset the clock then.
Whether they are trying to reset the gens or not, one thing is clear: they are now locked in an arms race for hardware. This pleases me greatly. Neither side will want to surrender the upper hand next go around and hopefully this should spur them to deliver us stronger boxes at launch going forward.
LastGamer84
Member
MS definitely, Sony not so much.
Whatever Sony might claim, it's undeniable that the PS4 will run PSVR better than the base PS4. Likely this contributed to their decision to release a pro in the first place.
MS on the hand, saw the writing on the wall, saw the admittedly middling sales numbers (when measured against the success of the PS4), saw the power gap becoming more and more of an issue, and likely realized even the U.S. was no longer safe as a bastion of strong Xbox sales.
So MS quite literally reset the game- clearing the chess board and swinging the power gap back in their favor. Will it work? Only time will tell.
Whatever Sony might claim, it's undeniable that the PS4 will run PSVR better than the base PS4. Likely this contributed to their decision to release a pro in the first place.
MS on the hand, saw the writing on the wall, saw the admittedly middling sales numbers (when measured against the success of the PS4), saw the power gap becoming more and more of an issue, and likely realized even the U.S. was no longer safe as a bastion of strong Xbox sales.
So MS quite literally reset the game- clearing the chess board and swinging the power gap back in their favor. Will it work? Only time will tell.
MisterXDTV
Member
Well they want to build stronger boxes but keeping the price affordable.
This mid-gen happened because AMD shrank the GPUs from 28 to 14nm, it was the perfect storm in a way...
I don't think we will see another conjunction of time like that in a while (7nm is still far away)
You don't think Sony can invest in first parties while also putting out Pro? What exactly is your proof to the contrary?
What point would there be for Sony to pursue 100% forwards compatibility instead of just building on backwards compatibility?
Even after they have said over and over again that they are not interested in destroying gens or mandating forwards compatibility, we still see claims like this. Its the new "always online is the future"
TSMC Roadmap Update: Will Be Ready To Take 7nm Orders By April 2017, Volume Production Scheduled To Begin By 2018
TSMC's 7nm should definitely be ready for volume production complex chips in consoles that would launch in 2020, even factoring in a ~1 year delay of the 7nm node.
AMD has now reserved the right to use TSMC, and not be bound to GlobalFoundries.
TheSpecialOne
Banned
Nope, they are just extending the generation. They've said as much and it makes absolutely no sense for them to reset the gen. The ps4 pro is not nearly powerful enough for a reset. Microsoft on the other hand will try to and I don't think it'll work. In fact, I honestly believe it'll do more harm than good. If they wanted to reset, they should have waited till 2018. 6tf is not nearly enough for a new gen and the number to start a new gen with is 10tf minimum. They could have done that in 2018 but now the Scorpio will be in no man's land. If Sony respond with a ps5 in 2019, that console will be about 2 times more powerful than the Scorpio if it remains at 6tf. With the Scorpio having launched just 2 years prior to release, it would be stupid to drop new hardware till 2020 at the earliest. The console market will very quickly contract if they try and adopt the upgrade cycle of the mobile market. Phones are essential, video games are not.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
If we make it to 2020 (I use to say 2018 but this mid-gen refreshes fucked that up though think I said 2017 for MS at some point after how the XBO turned out) I think it's safe to assume we'll see consoles that are more around twice that FLOP count. 15TF at a minimum four years from now shouldn't be out of the question.
Red Liquorice
Member
They're just trying to double their money per gen, end of.
I'm pretty sure this is more of a stopgap measure than anything else. I expect PS5 in 2019 or 20 which is about what I was expecting before the rumors even leaked.
I don't know what Microsoft is doing. Seems they're going a little bit further than Sony. I wonder what it's going to be priced at.
I don't know what Microsoft is doing. Seems they're going a little bit further than Sony. I wonder what it's going to be priced at.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
They're going to probably try justifying selling it at a higher price but specwise it still looks like what a $400-$450 console would be in 2017.
Berek Halfhand
Member
Isn't a more powerful system with with better graphics considered a reset?
This is very dangerous territory IMO. I agree MS wishes that they could rest. They've made their bed now.
Sony on the other hand I have no idea. Not falling for it though.
This is very dangerous territory IMO. I agree MS wishes that they could rest. They've made their bed now.
Sony on the other hand I have no idea. Not falling for it though.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Yes, 12 - 15TF would be about my guess in 2020/21-ish. I think it's possible Microsoft might once again go a year later than Sony's PS5.
Their Scorpio will have more legs than the Neo. Plus that way they guarantee having the best hardware on the market for the majority of the time. I think that would be my strategy anyway if I was losing. Having the best hardware is at least one major checkbox in the bag to help regain consumer support.
I just wish consoles would finally drop 30fps once and for all, then I might take them more seriously as a viable alternative to PC.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
I dont know what more Sony can do to convince you that the Pro is a PS4. They wont even let Pro modes have an improved frame rate in multiplayer, let alone exclusives.
30yearsofhurt
Member
I think it will depend on GPU advances.
The moment you see a 15TF GPU the clock will be ticking for a new console gen 2 years later.
The moment you see a 15TF GPU the clock will be ticking for a new console gen 2 years later.
Henry Jones Jr
Member
I think Sony's plan is to release a new console every 3 years, but only start a new console "generation" every 6 years. In 3 more years, we will get a PS5 and with it new PS5 games that will not play on PS4 or PS4 Pro. Then 3 years after that we will get PS5 Pro. So basically if you just want to play the games, you just get a console every 6 years and you're set. If you are a power user and want the best, you get a new console every 3 years.
As long as they stay with x86, all games back to original PS4 will be compatible with all future systems.
As long as they stay with x86, all games back to original PS4 will be compatible with all future systems.
General Lee
Member
I think Sony might keep the gen unified that when PS5 comes, there won't be games that work on PS4 Pro but not the base model. Pro is too similar, so there's not much point in excluding it. Microsoft on the other hand might leave the option for the developers to only support Scorpio and whatever follows it. That's assuming Scorpio is using a new CPU instead of the old Jaguar cores.
Once AMD has 10/7nm custom APU's available, Sony and MS will make the jump to next gen. That'll be 2019 earliest. It doesn't make much sense for Sony or MS to make any concrete plans, they'll simply have to wait until new tech is available, and that's what decides the cadence.
Once AMD has 10/7nm custom APU's available, Sony and MS will make the jump to next gen. That'll be 2019 earliest. It doesn't make much sense for Sony or MS to make any concrete plans, they'll simply have to wait until new tech is available, and that's what decides the cadence.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Came to post this. I feel like this generation is just starting and has alot left to give.
timmyp53
Member
Both of yall is wrong. Exclusives don't matter. Just look at the sales for this gen as proof already.
ReBurn
Gold Member
These mid gen refreshes are not resetting the clock. They are the end of generations as we've known them.
Technology is moving too fast to continue with 6-8 year cycles. Shorter cycles will keep hardware close enough to PC to keep people interested, which is no doubt important to Microsoft's Windows 10 strategy. That's also why Sony released PS4 Pro.
I think we'll see new boxes every 3-4 years that bump the specs but keep the same basic architecture. If they can keep the price in the $400-$500 range some people will buy the latest iteration every time. I know I will. They'll call it PS5/Xbox whatever and market it, but it'll just be another iteration and not a generational leap.
Technology is moving too fast to continue with 6-8 year cycles. Shorter cycles will keep hardware close enough to PC to keep people interested, which is no doubt important to Microsoft's Windows 10 strategy. That's also why Sony released PS4 Pro.
I think we'll see new boxes every 3-4 years that bump the specs but keep the same basic architecture. If they can keep the price in the $400-$500 range some people will buy the latest iteration every time. I know I will. They'll call it PS5/Xbox whatever and market it, but it'll just be another iteration and not a generational leap.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
I think Sony was pretty clear with the Pro, an extension to the PS4 because that's what it is to be honest.
Hopefully for the PS5 they use Zen+ as long as AMD doesn't fuck up it's timetable.
Hopefully for the PS5 they use Zen+ as long as AMD doesn't fuck up it's timetable.
I'm still not sure we're ever going to have "resets" in the traditional sense anymore. Microsoft is already talking about "blurring the lines between console generations."
I've said it before but here's what I sort of expect to happen: Sony releases a console called the PS5 in 2019 or 2020. It's still based on the same architecture, operating system, and API as PS4 and PS4 Pro but more dramatically upgraded, essentially making it another refresh under the hood (but not branded as such). Sony drops the requirement for developers to support PS4 and PS4 Pro, but many of them, maybe even the majority of them for a while, choose to keep supporting the older consoles for the same reason they did cross-gen games in 2013 and 2014. As a result you end up with a lot of games circa 2020 that support the PS4, PS4 Pro, and PS5 but on one SKU. The most popular games like Madden, FIFA, or Call of Duty would definitely do this, maybe locking off gameplay features from the older versions. It would be like the difference between playing a game on a GTX 1080 and playing the same game on a 760. Indie developers are definitely more likely to support the older machines in a system like this since their games rarely have a reason to really push the hardware. Why lock a low-end indie game to the latest model if it can run fine on an older model without the developer having to build a whole separate version?
At the very least I think Microsoft is more likely to try this. Microsoft may even allow Scorpio-exclusive games, but most developers will probably choose not to make their games Scorpio-exclusive for a while.
I've said it before but here's what I sort of expect to happen: Sony releases a console called the PS5 in 2019 or 2020. It's still based on the same architecture, operating system, and API as PS4 and PS4 Pro but more dramatically upgraded, essentially making it another refresh under the hood (but not branded as such). Sony drops the requirement for developers to support PS4 and PS4 Pro, but many of them, maybe even the majority of them for a while, choose to keep supporting the older consoles for the same reason they did cross-gen games in 2013 and 2014. As a result you end up with a lot of games circa 2020 that support the PS4, PS4 Pro, and PS5 but on one SKU. The most popular games like Madden, FIFA, or Call of Duty would definitely do this, maybe locking off gameplay features from the older versions. It would be like the difference between playing a game on a GTX 1080 and playing the same game on a 760. Indie developers are definitely more likely to support the older machines in a system like this since their games rarely have a reason to really push the hardware. Why lock a low-end indie game to the latest model if it can run fine on an older model without the developer having to build a whole separate version?
At the very least I think Microsoft is more likely to try this. Microsoft may even allow Scorpio-exclusive games, but most developers will probably choose not to make their games Scorpio-exclusive for a while.
bitbydeath
Member
Got a link for the sales you are referring?
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I don't have a good link, but I think what he is referring to is the top 10 NPD every month. It is generally dominated by multiplatform games like COD, Battlefield, Madden, FallOut, NBA2K, GTA5, etc every month. Rarely do you see exclusive games like Uncharted, Forza, Bloodborne, Quantum Break, etc consistently dominate the sales chart every month. Just look at some of the older NPD threads.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Strange hearing people state that Scorpio is in any different position than Sony. They're not. It's still an Xbox One, the gap in power is just a bit larger since it will be more powerful and is an iteration on the lower powered XB1.
Generational leaps require far larger jumps in power - CPU, Memory, bandwidth. Etc. Scorpio is a sizeable iterative bump, but it's still within this generation. It really is the PS4/XB1 in reverse in terms of power differential, and arguably less so since there's more diminishing returns with higher resolutions.
Sony/MS will launch next gen systems when 7 nm is ready, they can fit a lot more RAM, CPU power, and bandwidth into the system. This is likely to be around 2020. PS4/Scorpio exist because they'll simply provide another consumer option for the next 4 years as 4K TVs gather steam. It's a smart move for both parties. They are both taking interesting strategies to get there. Sony is earlier, less powerful, but likely to be more affordable. I think MS being late to the party has to differentiate themselves somehow, and certainly can't be equal when they're a year later.
There's no question to me that PS4 pro will be far more successful given these factors: 1) timing, 2) price, 3) brand.
Generational leaps require far larger jumps in power - CPU, Memory, bandwidth. Etc. Scorpio is a sizeable iterative bump, but it's still within this generation. It really is the PS4/XB1 in reverse in terms of power differential, and arguably less so since there's more diminishing returns with higher resolutions.
Sony/MS will launch next gen systems when 7 nm is ready, they can fit a lot more RAM, CPU power, and bandwidth into the system. This is likely to be around 2020. PS4/Scorpio exist because they'll simply provide another consumer option for the next 4 years as 4K TVs gather steam. It's a smart move for both parties. They are both taking interesting strategies to get there. Sony is earlier, less powerful, but likely to be more affordable. I think MS being late to the party has to differentiate themselves somehow, and certainly can't be equal when they're a year later.
There's no question to me that PS4 pro will be far more successful given these factors: 1) timing, 2) price, 3) brand.
I think this is strategy for PlayStation hardware as well unless the Xbox scorpion is able to shake things up.
Salty Hippo
Member
Generations are over, there's nothing to reset anymore. It'll be one incremental upgrade after another from now on, with only two SKUs being supported at a time for each company so that the super old hardware doesn't hold the games back. The end.
odhiex
Member
This new "beyond generation" model is really interesting to me.
Of course, I'm not going to buy every iterations as I don't need/have to anyway. I'm glad to know that the old hardwares will be supported for quite a while before I am ready to buy another one a couple years later.
Forward compatibility (and somewhat backward compatibility is also welcomed.
Of course, I'm not going to buy every iterations as I don't need/have to anyway. I'm glad to know that the old hardwares will be supported for quite a while before I am ready to buy another one a couple years later.
Forward compatibility (and somewhat backward compatibility is also welcomed.
They matter to what ecosystem core users are going to invest in, not overall sales in the casual marketplace. They are important, but not as important as third party games.
If Sony and MS had 1:1 software output, there would be literally no real differentiation between the two. MS can't match Sony on non western games and tons of other content, that's why i invest in that eocystem.
People keep saying it, but what's the basis? Because MS says that's what they want to do? They don't dictate how the industry goes, otherwise it would be a hell of a lot different right now already.
LiquidSolid
Member
Well yeah, 8 TFLOPS wouldn't compare well and I doubt they'd do that anyway, but personally, I don't really care that much about the perception of whether the console is next gen or not. I want the PS5/XB2 to offer more than just a GPU upgrade.
quickwhips
Member
Wth does that statment even mean? Its either a leap or it isn't. 40% is a pretty good jump mid gen.
PS5 - Xbox5
New CPU architecture that's both more powerful and faster (Zen, Zen+, etc)
GPUs that are around 10X more powerful than base PS4 / Xbox One (or ~3X Scorpio)
High Bandwidth Memory / 32 GB RAM / 1+ TB/sec bandwidth
Native 2160p games - next gen graphics /lighting / physics
2nd generation VR.
New CPU architecture that's both more powerful and faster (Zen, Zen+, etc)
GPUs that are around 10X more powerful than base PS4 / Xbox One (or ~3X Scorpio)
High Bandwidth Memory / 32 GB RAM / 1+ TB/sec bandwidth
Native 2160p games - next gen graphics /lighting / physics
2nd generation VR.
Humdinger
Gold Member
I'm not even clear on what defines a generation. Is it a certain level of power increase? A certain level of technological difference between the consoles (not just power but something in the tech itself)? Or is it that the software from the earlier console isn't fully compatible with the successor?
DangerMouse
Member
It will be bound to current gen games just like the PS4 Pro since the games will have to work on both. Therefore games can't be built just for these two new pieces of hardware.
For most people, generations are defined by the software being fully taken advantage of in the hardware to create a clear jump in visual and gameplay design experience.
I don't think it means means straighforwardly that only games that could not be emulated on previous consoles are 'next gen', but that games built to take advantage of those systems in a particular way are considered the standard of a new generation.
I do not think that hardware itself is the standard for generations, as as we've seen, you can mandate that the games stay the same with relatively minor PC like upgrades to visual and performance compared to a complete changing of the landscape like traditional software generational changes.
Sony's idea of generations, based on what they've said of the Pro, is based on the above. A new piece of hardware with software to specifically take advantage of that hardware in completely changing visual or conceptual designs in the software itself. Something they have specifically forbidden Pro to not do.
Generally speaking though, Pro could not be considered a generational shift to begin with, its level of power is not strong enough to bring a paradigm shift in game software. The RAM size is the same, the bandwidth is only marginally higher, and the CPU is only marginally higher too. only the GPU is somewhat stronger.
Its likely because the Pro was built specifically in mind with the thought that it was not intended to be fully taken advantage of as its own unit beyond visual and slight performance upgrades.
