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As a lifelong (but merely casual) Street Fighter fan, don't feel like I have a place
- Thread starter AgentOtaku
- Start date
storafötter
Member
Exactly. I bought Xrd, but played it very little. However its battle system is very damn complicated despite doing the tutorial twice.
Kinda funny I notice more and more people signing out of the Neogaf PS4 SFV room.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I honestly think that there will be more dedicated players on Revelator than SF5. Guilty Gear also had beastly, near flawless players online and and Revelator looks like an extension to GGXrd meaning that those pros will probably migrate over unless the mechanics drastically changed which I doubt. I actually think SF5 is easier to pick up than Guilty Gear, but I could be wrong on the competitive level on both games. Imho, Arc fighters imo range from fairly complicated to very complicated, especially for casuals. Yeah, SF5 like most fighters is filled with hardcore players, but just getting the mechanics down in something like Revelator will probably be a battle in itself.
Sadly, it does seems like most of the casuals abandoned SF5 or even fighting games in general. I have a feeling that is going to be a future trend for most fighters unfortunately. Most casuals understandably probably just do not have the time and patience to try to get really competent at fighting games to compete on a high level. I think I can hold my own in most fighters, but I must that fighting games are seemingly becoming a little more difficult to compete in.
Stop fear mongering people into not buying the game and it's not upto you to tell us who has a place or not. Capcom does care as we've seen from their latest fiscal report but it's a case of being "too little too late". If they cared only about thier income they would make us pay for every game update such as characters, stages and other DLC (like other fighters are doing) yet they are giving us a chance to get them for free.
The Silver
Member
Man I remember when I was excited seeing gameplay videos and was looking forward to buying the game and finally really getting into the Street Fighter series, then when launch was nearing I looked into the game more and was shocked at how barebones it actually was. A fighting game releasing at full price without even a basic arcade mode for me to practice in? wat? Completely turned me off from the game.
That's how I got my skills up in MvC3 before venturing into the harsh world of online. I'm a person who if im facing another human I want to fucking win, getting blown out like a scrub 20x in a row is something I won't let happen. I'll keep practicing at my own pace in arcade(usually on the highest difficulty) or story, getting a feel for what my best character(s) is in the process, it's how I've always done it. I don't know what Capcom was thinking with SFV.
That's how I got my skills up in MvC3 before venturing into the harsh world of online. I'm a person who if im facing another human I want to fucking win, getting blown out like a scrub 20x in a row is something I won't let happen. I'll keep practicing at my own pace in arcade(usually on the highest difficulty) or story, getting a feel for what my best character(s) is in the process, it's how I've always done it. I don't know what Capcom was thinking with SFV.
rasberryjam
Member
I ended up buying the game for a friend, so I could have someone at my level to consistently fight. Coping with repeated losses feels like a core part of the game now.
I've gotten better, but maining Alex coupled with this being a first attempt at actually learning a fighting game has been rough.
I've gotten better, but maining Alex coupled with this being a first attempt at actually learning a fighting game has been rough.
DryEyeRelief
Member
What ZTS said isn't really different than a bunch of the apologists for this game have been saying. The only difference is he's saying it's stupid instead of taking pride in it.
gigantor21
Member
They might not have been outright contemptuous, but indifference and poor prioritizing clearly made it look that way.
Capcom had a choice to make. They could either wait until May/June and actually release the game with story mode, challenges and tutorials and the like to offer a complete and well rounded package. Their rushing the game out in the state it launched at was a clear sign that they didn't think that stuff was as important as the CPT.
For all his talk of wanting to "reset" the franchise and broaden the audience, the game should NEVER have launched without that stuff. They put all that effort into making the actual gameplay more accessible but didn't do nearly enough to offer tools for new players to learn the game, or even just enjoy it in ways other than getting their asses kicked online.
And really, considering how I've seen so many apologists saying that complaints about the barebones release are just pointless whining, I can't say I'm surprised Capcom didn't realize how important the offline/single-player stuff was. The fallout has exposed VERY clear contempt for more casual players from many in the core audience.
It's interesting, I just went back on to get the storymode and survival mode fm that you get for free due to the store not being up.
People aren't interested in fighting people who aren't good anymore. No one takes rematches, people will do the quickest most efficient combos in order to end matches faster when they realize their opponent isn't as skilled.
In making the core loop of the game "win above all else" they really have alienated the rest of the populous. Unless you are planning on dedicating 100% of your gaming time to SF5, there's nothing there for you. You're either winning online or you're scrambling to get through as many scrubs as you can in order to continue winning online against players that matter.
It really is a "casual gamers need not apply" situation. It also means unless you have people in your physical life who are interested in playing SF5, the likelihood that you're going to actually learn from playing online is very very small.
Capcom has made the ultimate tournament game, and now, 4 months later, it seems like the only ones who can hang are people who are willing to dedicate their lives to it.
I don't have that kind of dedication, so I think I'm done with this game.
People aren't interested in fighting people who aren't good anymore. No one takes rematches, people will do the quickest most efficient combos in order to end matches faster when they realize their opponent isn't as skilled.
In making the core loop of the game "win above all else" they really have alienated the rest of the populous. Unless you are planning on dedicating 100% of your gaming time to SF5, there's nothing there for you. You're either winning online or you're scrambling to get through as many scrubs as you can in order to continue winning online against players that matter.
It really is a "casual gamers need not apply" situation. It also means unless you have people in your physical life who are interested in playing SF5, the likelihood that you're going to actually learn from playing online is very very small.
Capcom has made the ultimate tournament game, and now, 4 months later, it seems like the only ones who can hang are people who are willing to dedicate their lives to it.
I don't have that kind of dedication, so I think I'm done with this game.
Petrae
Member
Yup. I played SFII (and its sequels) in arcades and at home by myself. Same with every other fighting game. On rare occasions, I played Alpha 3 at a game store with friends-- but that was about it.
The single-player modes in fighting games didn't have to be deep. Sure, I enjoyed Edge Master Mode, World Tour Mode, and the various solo stuff that Netherrealm designed for Mortal Kombat-- but I was perfectly content to drop 15-30 minutes of time going up the arcade ladder in even the earliest games.
When Capcom focused on online multiplayer for SFV, it was a no-brainer to skip it. It's not at all what I want. Not only would I have to pay for an online sub to get much use out of SFV, but I'd get to look forward to getting housed all the damn time? Fuck that. Even SFIV had ladder match solo play that I could go back to after getting my ass handed to me online. SFV? Not so much.
Capcom's lost me for good, after 20+ years of buying Street Fighter video games. I really don't give a rat's ass if/when the publisher decides to add more solo play stuff to SFV. What won't be forgotten by me is how Capcom decided to deprioritize the solo player in favor of its FGC approval aspirations, its rush for fiscal year deadlines, or whatever other bullshit reasoning it decides to plead.
This. I dont get where the "They made it only for the FGC" rhetoric is coming form when EVERYONE was upset about the launch. If they made the game for the FGC you would see features within the game that would suggest that, yet there's nothing that does. It's SF4 features without SP content. I dont know how removing one thing without adding anything else is making a game that caters more to a particular crowd. That's called releasing an unfinished game.
AgentOtaku
Member
Tragically, yes
I completely understand OP. While I'm not a SF player, I felt as you do about Tekken 6 when it turned out that online was the only way to rank up after reaching 1st Dan. I like playing locally but never competitively. After all the connection issues and demotions because of things like lag, this made me stick entirely to Scenario Campaign and endless battles against CPU without getting anywhere. Not very rewarding.
On the flipside, I reached Tekken God within weeks on Ttt2 because they allowed offline level ups. I just don't like playing online because everyone is awesome as I am and that makes me competitive, which I don't like to be. Same with Smash 4. I play exclusively offline unless my sister wants to do team battles - those are fun.
On the flipside, I reached Tekken God within weeks on Ttt2 because they allowed offline level ups. I just don't like playing online because everyone is awesome as I am and that makes me competitive, which I don't like to be. Same with Smash 4. I play exclusively offline unless my sister wants to do team battles - those are fun.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Hard to articulate correctly what I want to say without someone coming out left field accusing me of being an apologist or some FGC elitist. Granted I'm not one since all my experience from SF comes from consoles, playing solo, couch play and some arcade machines ( at the local laundry mat or at the mall hell I learned to play stick last gen XD) so I'll just skip that it's long and hard without someone trying to twist your words.
However, I'll say that I can see where the OP is coming from and why he feels alienated. It's shame cause all capcom needed to do to please the disgruntled was to add more CPU matches during the SFV prologue/story mode. For instance, a latter of 10 CPU matches think about A3, before your first match you get a short story segment, then the 5th fight whoever is your rival in the story and then the 10 match is the final boss. Like the prologue in SFV is fine it just needed some paddling of CPU fights and difficulty slider and bam there's your arcade mode. Then the June update could be viewed as a continuation of the arcade mode prologue/story would be the first time an arcade mode story is updated since we would have to wait until the next game for the continuation of the story but capcom messed up. People would've been cheering such thing well those who like that mode.
I can only speak for myself but I have gotten my 60 dollars worth but i can see why someone feels the way they feel. Ultimately, I'm a SF player since birth it was my first game with sonic 2 as well on the Genesis.
However, I'll say that I can see where the OP is coming from and why he feels alienated. It's shame cause all capcom needed to do to please the disgruntled was to add more CPU matches during the SFV prologue/story mode. For instance, a latter of 10 CPU matches think about A3, before your first match you get a short story segment, then the 5th fight whoever is your rival in the story and then the 10 match is the final boss. Like the prologue in SFV is fine it just needed some paddling of CPU fights and difficulty slider and bam there's your arcade mode. Then the June update could be viewed as a continuation of the arcade mode prologue/story would be the first time an arcade mode story is updated since we would have to wait until the next game for the continuation of the story but capcom messed up. People would've been cheering such thing well those who like that mode.
I can only speak for myself but I have gotten my 60 dollars worth but i can see why someone feels the way they feel. Ultimately, I'm a SF player since birth it was my first game with sonic 2 as well on the Genesis.
This is wishful thinking, at best. I dropped GGXrd in a month because I couldn't find matches in a timely fashion and, although I'm a fairly decent player in 2D fighters in general, I'd say the majority of the player base was better than me.
SFV didn't net as nearly as casual players as SFIV did, clearly. However, advocating an updated version of semi-niche anime fighter isn't going to fix OP's problem.
Edit: There is more single player content, though, with M.O.M. and the Mission modes. Of course, if you're looking to "play" a story mode in a fighting game then GGXrd's story mode won't be for you.
Kalamari
Member
SFV is pretty trash as most have said, and will probably decline in popularity after EVO. Capcom really shot themselves in the foot by releasing a half-assed title, then they complain about a lack of sales.
Smash is where all the action is right now, it has a thriving community that is growing leaps and bounds. It's far more approachable for casuals as well in my uninformed opinion.
Smash is where all the action is right now, it has a thriving community that is growing leaps and bounds. It's far more approachable for casuals as well in my uninformed opinion.
The game design essentially removed barriers so semi-beginners could become intermediate players more easily. The whole "making the game more beginner friendly" focus isn't completely true. Although they made the game easier for less devoted players complete casuals who have troubles doing super moves or aren't not sure how to special cancel will likely not even notice these changes. There's way, way more gradations in skill level in Street Fighter than just beginner -> intermediate -> pro.
I actually don't think it's possible to gain a lot of new beginner players and turn them into decent players without turning the game into something like Smash Bros. level of complexity (and I'm not including Melee in this). The amount a player has to learn to not get obliterated immediately facing a random online opponent is dozens of hours of learning and that probably applies to every 2D fighter out there that, again, isn't Smash Bros. And those hours of learning just mean you won't get perfected, you'll still probably lose.
I guess if you could get convince tons of people to flock to your game that haven't played Street Fighter one could learn to mash SRK and take out the completely new players, a la the first month of vanilla SFIV. Of course, that did only last about a month.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Content is trash and half-assed for casuals or folks who just want to smash buttons and messed around to take off some stress agreed, the gameplay is unrivaled and perhaps the best in the series.. So next time you come to shit on a game or shill your preferred game at the very least get the facts straight. Btw Smash is fantastic.
That's simply not true. This game is the most popular fighting game in the FGC and has over 4000 (which is a record breaker and way more than smash) entrants at this years EVO in only it's first year so I doubt game will be going anywhere anytime soon. I think Capcom have realised thier lack of strategy which is why they stated in thier fiscal report about continuing to support the game with more resources however it was a massive shame that it took them this long to realise thier mistakes.
I think the only way it happens is indeed with a bigger player base. Dota 2 is even more obtuse than a SFV in its mechanics but due to how many people play there's still a lot of newbies around that you can fumble around with while youre all learning.
The only way SFV would get such a population boost is if it went f2p itself though. Not sure I see capcom doing that yet.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Because sfv apologists have been defending this game in the name of the FGC
example:
Well, there are apologists then there are people with valid opinions in regards to the game which are not overly negative that some on Neogaf tend to be. I'm kind of neutral but tend to stay more "glass is half full" as constantly being a negative nancy will be a waste of my time and breath. There is no denying that Capcom messed up but they need to learn from these mistakes pronto as they go forward.
This is what I believe as well. You can't force someone to become good at a 2D fighting game. And although some tutorial modes are better than others there hasn't been a single one that I can think of that thoroughly teaches you how to play while also being fun/subtly incorporate a tutorial into the game. The best ones are a text box that says "here's how to super cancel and here's why you'd want to" followed by making you do that 3 times.
So the best solution is to remove a big barrier to entry, the price, and hope that for every 100 people that try Street Fighter V that at least one sticks with it and gets better.
Rapscallion
Member
This thread has made me rethink getting the game when it's cheap. Even USF4 was too much for me; I would get destroyed online
Not saying you should buy it but "even USF4 was too much for me" doesn't make much sense. Half the online population for that game was killers because SF4 had been around forever, leaving the only people still playing being 1) very experienced and 2) very good.
There is definitely a lot of great players in V in the online population but it is still a new game. Plus, the game itself is easier for newer players to win with the high damage and short combos. It's still challenging, though.
crimzonflame
Member
I havent even opened my copy of SF5 yet.
I'm in-between a casual fighting game fan and a hardcore FGC member. I watch fighting tourneys, play a good amount of fighters but I dislike going online much these days and the same with even going to official tourneys, never been to one.
I feel pretty much the same as you do.
Yeah the gameplay is great but I've got a career, I can't go into training or online constantly and spend time on that, I can't do all of these things hence why I prefer single player modes, just modes that I can do great in and be invested. I mean it is what it is. This series has been great for years but this entry feels like they're leaving me (a fan who's been in since SFT2 on SNES) in the past. Tekken on the other hand surely when T7 hits they'll have all I need in single player hell they've already commented on it. Overall SFV's release is a shot in the heart to most fans who aren't in that "ok lemme play this online match then go to training mode for a bit and then do more online" mindset. You've gotta constantly be on the grind in this game.
And it's funny because I've said this exact same thing when the game released and I'm seeing a lot more people who initially were against my comment follow along as well. I mean it just is what it is.
I feel pretty much the same as you do.
Yeah the gameplay is great but I've got a career, I can't go into training or online constantly and spend time on that, I can't do all of these things hence why I prefer single player modes, just modes that I can do great in and be invested. I mean it is what it is. This series has been great for years but this entry feels like they're leaving me (a fan who's been in since SFT2 on SNES) in the past. Tekken on the other hand surely when T7 hits they'll have all I need in single player hell they've already commented on it. Overall SFV's release is a shot in the heart to most fans who aren't in that "ok lemme play this online match then go to training mode for a bit and then do more online" mindset. You've gotta constantly be on the grind in this game.
And it's funny because I've said this exact same thing when the game released and I'm seeing a lot more people who initially were against my comment follow along as well. I mean it just is what it is.
I'd say, unless you want to make the game your main game for a significant amount of time, it's not going to be for you.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Does SF:V have someone with a youtube channel making videos easing people into learning?
Something like Purge's channel in dota 2 or HDStarcraft was that to some extent at one point.
Something like Purge's channel in dota 2 or HDStarcraft was that to some extent at one point.
That's not what stops people from wanting to become FGC amateurs trying to go online and improve. Lack of desire not lack of tools. That shit is already out there if you want to seek it out.
Proper tools would lead to a guaranteed higher conversion rate of the playerbase regarding this than what they have now. "Seeking it out" is part of the wall that prevents players from getting to a competitive point.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Not really why I asked but more out of personal interest.
I think there's more than one road to taking an interest in the FGC, one of which being people that put a lot of time into single player because they find it fun and less intimating, then moving towards playing competitively and learning the technical ins and outs of the game. I know that's what I did for smash.
professor denim
Member
On a deeper level, yes. But its a game really easy to fall to and most importantly, extremely fun to play. Like SNK best, its easy to play but hard to master.
It looks and sounds beutifully, tones of Single player options to mess around, M.O.M is awesome. story mode, challenges etc...
Then online you will get across the niche fan base, who've been following the series since ever, so get ready to get bodied, Guilty Gear player will not hold back.
The thing is, i've become a much better Guilty Gear player with Xrd, i learned a lot with it and most of it was from playing offline modes. Thanks to that i can hold my own while online and i live in a zone where theres plenty of great players, China/Hong Kong.
And has i get older (37), my patience to learn video games as grow thiner, but i can defenetly see the casual appeal on Xrd. It something SFV is completly missing.
Except for the fact that there were Street 5 defenders going "OH BUT WHO CARES ABOUT OFFLINE MODES THO!? ONLINE ONLINE ONLINE #NotTrueFightingGameFans." So I'd say Capcom fucked up by making those people feel self-important.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Excluding the lack of content, SF5 is still an excellent fighter. Trash? I take it that you have never experienced Shadow Warrior on 3DO or Rise of the Robots before. Yeah, SF5 is barebones(like most games this generation unfortunately), but imo the fighting engine/gameplay is near unprecedented. Smash? Comparing Smash to SF5 is like comparing Apple pie to gasoline.
Smash is more like a platform fighter imo. The two games are nothing alike and just because one has more content in it doesn't mean it's the better fighter. Yeah, Smash is more approachable or accessible for casuals, but I think something like Skullgrils, NitroPlus, Guilty Gear, Blazblue or even Mortal Kombat is more of a substitute for SF5 than Smash.
Mass Effect
Member
Smash 4, MKX, and KI are perfect examples of developers providing content for both casual and hardcore players with everyone ending up happy. Not to mention their consistent updates and them constantly adding new content. I feel those three games are the gold standard this gen when it comes to fighting games.
I like SFV (even though I haven't played it in a while), but Capcom has really dropped the ball in comparison.
KI is providing constant updates, yes. But Smash 4 already ended DLC support back in February (& judging by the Bayonetta patch, possibly ending balance updates as well) while NRS is only considering Kombat Pack 3 as far as we know. Granted, you could make an argument for the NX port adding more content, but that's one big if.
Mass Effect
Member
I know Smash ended DLC support, but they still provided a ton of content for over a year. So, for the time they were doing DLC and updates, they were doing a good job IMO. And even though MKX hasn't had as many content updates as the other two, they had a much more fleshed out game from the beginning. As the one poster I quoted said, so many features are missing from SFV in comparison and Capcom has been pretty slow at rectifying that.
Don't get me wrong, I am not making excuses for the state of the game at this point. A lot of games have rocky launches and if things had been dealt with in a timely fashion I think it would be water under the bridge for everyone at this point. Trust me, I *LOVE* this game, but I'm still disappointed with it's current state. It's embarrassing having the game come up in conversation with a co-worker telling him how great the game is but to hold off a few months to buy it.
What I am saying is that acting like Capcom is making some sort of a preference for pro players over casuals makes very little sense. For example you said the game should have sat until story, tutorial and challenge modes were ready, but the second two are things hardcore fans want too.
You say the CPT is treated as more important, but Capcom doesn't run those tournaments, all they did was not delay the game. What probably happened was the suits at Capcom (The same ones who didn't want to find the game to begin with and needed Sony's money to convince them) made them drop the game to hit financial numbers and the timing supports that.
The game was released barebones in a state that really only worked if you were playing locally, but that's not because that's what the hardcore players want, it's because that's he foundation everything else is built on. If they were actually prioritizing the hardcore players they still would have delayed the game to get it ready for them.
Lupin the Third
Member
I like playing against real world players occasionally but I had a lot more fun playing through World Tour mode in Alpha 3 than really any other SF content. SFV not even having a rich solo experience, and honestly the steps toward even greater cleavage and skin exposure, cemented my distaste for V. If they remedy some of this with an optional "Super SFV" configuration for latecomers, I would probably grab it.
They lowered the execution barrier significantly, in retrospect it probably would have made sense to bring back EO from CVS2's later versions so people could do moves right off the bat.
I haven't played played the latest version of Smash Brothers that much but is it really so shallow now that you don't have to learn the game in order to win? I find that difficult to believe, I played the series pretty extensively until the latest version but when I played online I got eaten for breakfast.
The basic mechanics of DOTA 2 are not difficult. You point and click. Clicking and ability then clicking again is a lot easier to do then a Shoryuken.
This isn't to say anythingin regards to the game's skillcaps (I haven't played much DOTA 2) but at the basic level of controlling the game it's easier to pick up and play DOTA2.
MOBAs are also team activities, you've got friends with your back and to share the burden of skill. I think most of the 'casual' longtime street fighter fans are perfectly capable of doing something like a fireball or dragon punch or ultra or combo or whatever. Not the SUPER advanced stuff of course, but that's not the same. The amount of learning frame advantages and linker windows and what every single move looks like for every single matchup though? that's another level that you're not going to invest in if you don't want to be seriously good. It's not just that this is obtuse, it's that it's not fun to learn for most people that aren't already invested in that scene. With a moba you're learning it together with people you are already friends with most likely ( I doubt the solo queue super super beginner low ELO/MMR/whatever dota community is particularly large either).
This is probably the most noob friendly and accessible Street Fighter after Street Fighter 2. The focus on neutral game, lack of Ling combos, high damage output, and universal V Skill and V Trigger mechanic that's way easier to do that FADC shenanigans from SFIV. They definitely did a silly move by not adding Arcade Mode, they really could have just added the extra fights on Story Mode and make that Arcade Mode. But luckily Arcade Mode isn't a big deal for me.
Accessibility has nothing to do with the things you list though, casual players weren't going "Oh, FADC is so complex, I won't bother to get involved" - they never cared in the first place.
Like, most people here probably aren't or haven't ever been high end wow raiders, so if I start saying "Oh this xpac was more noob friendly because it didn't require you to line up your cooldowns with this trinket proc and wait for it and then scumbag vengeance on your tank and...' etc etc, it doesn't actually mean anything because the barrier for entry for you is "I don't want to play wow and be a raider" not "This mechanic involved in raiding is beyond my desire to learn"
The problem with the online basically is that the playerbase is small and you don't often get matched with people of similar skill. Also imo they need to put some other online mode in the game to make things more interesting but that is another issue.
I don't understand your complaint about people trying to be efficient, whether you are playing with a good or a bad player logically you will try to be efficient in a multiplayer game unless you enjoy losing, sure occasionally you can be flashy. Unless you are saying that this is the reason you prefer sp then i can understand.
It doesn't seem like many casuals are playing the game i will agree with you there, i find it interesting because in usfiv on steam there were tons of casual players playing online before sfv came out (i don't know what is going on know). I can only assume that casual players bought the game when it was cheap on sale.
Yeah the game being less complex will not attract causal players, sp stuff will but in my experience the more complex the game the less likely they will stick around for mp. I know casual players in sfiv who after a while were complaining that they were losing because they couldn't do fadc combos and other technical stuff like option selects and they didn't like going to training mode to learn all that.
But like you say if people weren't buying the game in the first place then all that doesn't doesn't matter.
Sure the execution of moves are harder but at its lowest level you don't even need to pull dp's off reliably. People have been playing fighting games for decades very casually with their friends, by effectively just 'button mashing' and still having fun. The issue is, you don't really get that level of play online.
Unlike in DOTA where you do have levels of play where people don't really know what they're doing.
I think you'd be surprised how decent the matchmaking is in Dota 2 really. I only started playing last year, and although I did have friends who already played. I didn't want to always burden them with my lack of skill/knowledge, so I played solo quite a lot. I always got matched with people who had a similar amount of time playing. Some people didn't seem to understand any of the mechanics, others probably played LoL or whatever before as they had more of a grasp, but over all it was a pretty good place to learn. First few games there was a few smurfs, but they get weaned out by the system.
bagandscalpel
Member
But then you have multiple posts in this thread decrying GGXrd as too casual unfriendly.
Which raises the question: does accessibility really account for anything to the casual eye, or is it better off hidden away to be found like buried treasure?