V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Truant said:
Ninja Assassin? Oooh yeah.
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Assassin's Creed 2 - Spoiler Thread (Discuss all plot and story here)
- Thread starter duckroll
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Ninja Assassin? Oooh yeah.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Yahtzee does AC2 this week, but Escapist is currently b0rked. Dammit.
Once Memory Sequences 12 and 13 are over and done with, I'd like to see a full-on expansion (5-6 new Memory Sequences), that flesh out the Lineage story. Basically, a Prologue sequence that deals exclusively with Ezio's dad's missions.
Preferably in a fully developed Rome...
Preferably in a fully developed Rome...
So any ideas on the silhouette holding the apple in the Truth segment of the video? Looks sort of like Ezio, but I think it may be Minerva or another one of the "gods." The silhouette seems to be floating, which is why I assume it's not a human.
Also, you guys think it's right to assume that the humans from Eden were being bred as slaves? Seems like they're toiling over building those "pieces" through metal work in sweat shop conditions.
Also, you guys think it's right to assume that the humans from Eden were being bred as slaves? Seems like they're toiling over building those "pieces" through metal work in sweat shop conditions.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
As someone who isn't aware of Christian history, can someone tell me what the 'blasphemy' in the Sisteen chapel scenario is that was talked about some time ago ?
Ether_Snake
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Vilix said:
But using what Animus?
Ether_Snake
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Also isn't there supposed to be a sword of Eden? In glyph 5 it shows the PE and staff, and a sword.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
[Nintex] said:
I just got goosebumps.
I Fucking love this story.
Ether_Snake
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Just look at the glyphs video on youtube, the Russian revolution could be cool for an AC game. I doubt they'll do it tho. Still would prefer antiquity Rome or Greece
Pizza Luigi
Member
Ether_Snake said:
The Animus is actually entirely set up in the van. It is said by that one girl, not Lucy, when they're in the van that 'all is connected and set up'. That's why you can use the Animus as well after you've finished the game.
I think there was a scream sound sample or something in the game that actually scared the shit out of me after I finally found the solution to a code. Staring at the screen for 10 minutes with only the static sounds in the background and "WOAH what the hell just happened" when I acccidently put in the right code.Gamer @ Heart said:
I don't like to use the word immersive but this game really is immersive, puts you in some sort of zone sometimes.
I hope the Desmond parts in AC III are more like they were in the first game. They were easily the most interesting parts of the first one. (and I loved every bit of the first) In fact, the Truth Glyphs reminded me of those parts in AC1.
I'm kinda hoping the next one takes place during and after the French Revolution (1789-1799). It just seems like an interesting time period. (Plus, you could focus on different types of gameplay that would still work for an Assassin.) The conspiracyish story could really thrive here.
I also think it could be a time where all of the Assassin guilds may have met together. (They seem to be united in Desmond's time, but it's clear that they aren't in Altair and Ezio's times.) I'd like to see what united them and how much different knowledge came together when they joined. I mean, things weren't and still aren't being discovered everywhere at once at the same time.
I'm kinda hoping the next one takes place during and after the French Revolution (1789-1799). It just seems like an interesting time period. (Plus, you could focus on different types of gameplay that would still work for an Assassin.) The conspiracyish story could really thrive here.
I also think it could be a time where all of the Assassin guilds may have met together. (They seem to be united in Desmond's time, but it's clear that they aren't in Altair and Ezio's times.) I'd like to see what united them and how much different knowledge came together when they joined. I mean, things weren't and still aren't being discovered everywhere at once at the same time.
And the music, oh my the music. The Auditore Villa has this eerie music that is simply amazing. Not to mention the build up in the music that they used for the chases but also just free roaming in the cities. The game delivered on all fronts and that's why ACII is so good.Crunched said:
TacticalFox88
Banned
Ok I just beat both games again back to back. And it's official.
AC1 and ACII>>>>>>MGS4 in terms of whacko and :lol Storylines. Good god Ubisoft could we have JUST gotten a game set in the period and not all this scifi bullshit about genetic memories?
AC1 and ACII>>>>>>MGS4 in terms of whacko and :lol Storylines. Good god Ubisoft could we have JUST gotten a game set in the period and not all this scifi bullshit about genetic memories?
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Ether_Snake said:
Well, Rebecca does say to Desmond to feel free to go back into the Animus, and dig around to see if he could come up with anymore useful memories, since it's gonna be a long drive to the cabin. My guess is they had a spare in the truck?
indigo-cyclops
Member
TacticalFox88 said:
Not even close considering the entire story has been plotted out from the beginning...That's what I think anyway.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Crunched said:
You saw that too?! I thought it might be Minerva, or another Atlantian, overseeing the workers. Eve came up from behind her and "yoink!"
I'm actually listening to the soundtrack right now :lol[Nintex] said:
Favorite tracks are "Earth," "Ezio's Family," "Venice Rooftops," and "Wetlands Escape." But there are so many awesome tracks. "The Madam," "Flight Over Venice," "Back in Venice"... they're all so good.
Why are we assuming they're Atlantian? I might have missed something. But yeah, I definitely noticed the person holding the apple there. I don't believe it actually shows Eve stealing the Apple, it seems to just cut from one scene to another in which she's somehow acquired it.Vilix said:
I'm assuming the genesis story is supposed to be the beginning of the war between humanity and the gods in Assassin's Creed. One thing I'm not so sure on (and I think the game intentionally calls into question without answering) is whether humans were created to serve the Pieces of Eden or if the Pieces were created to control humanity. I'm guessing the apple is what gives Minerva or whoever that is floating there the power to enslave those workers, hence the loss of "innocence" stealing the apple begins. Mankind was indoctrinated into serving the gods, but once the gods lost their device of control mankind was free to think for themselves.
I think it's very clever what they're done with myth and religion here. It grounds things, maybe not in reality, but in a very clear mythos that allows simple suggestion to really flesh out what would otherwise be a typical sci fi affair.
Well, I have to say I disagree. I appreciate that AC isn't full of shitty retcons and nanomachines as the excuse for everything.TacticalFox88 said:
I just finished the game, and best credits ever.
Better than COD MW2
Better than Killzone 2
Better than MGS3
BEST BEST BEST!!!!
Anyways are we descendants from spiders or ants or something? I didn't understand the last puzzle solution...
When the Minvera was talking to Enzio, she said she felt the presence of another.
I went ohh shit...
Then when she spoke to Desmond directly , I went ohhh fuck fuck like Desmond did.
How did Minvera speak through to Desmond through the memories of Enzio? Oh my gosh mind fucking blown.
Better than COD MW2
Better than Killzone 2
Better than MGS3
BEST BEST BEST!!!!
Anyways are we descendants from spiders or ants or something? I didn't understand the last puzzle solution...
When the Minvera was talking to Enzio, she said she felt the presence of another.
I went ohh shit...
Then when she spoke to Desmond directly , I went ohhh fuck fuck like Desmond did.
How did Minvera speak through to Desmond through the memories of Enzio? Oh my gosh mind fucking blown.
Ok. Finished the game last night. Just now finished reading this thread.
Hardly anyone's trying to make sense of what happened in the game in this thread. Is it because no one understands it? The story thread we had going for AC1 did a much better job of trying to parse out the nuances of the plot. So far, most folks here are just conjecturing about a sequel.
Anyway, here are some of my thoughts, divided according to the storyline:
Ezio's story:
There isn't much that needs to be explained here. It's all told in a straight-forward way.
The problem is that there seems to have been some major cuts to this part of the game. There are no main story missions in Forli (presumably being saved for the "Battle of Forli"), and the whole southern section of Florence is off limits (presumably being saved for the "Bonfire of the Vanities"). That makes the whole middle section of the game a meandering mess. Ezio isn't after anything in particular, and no one is guiding him. His uncle completely disappears. And not until the end do you get any real development of who the Assassins are and what they're after. That's too late.
Altair's story:
The codex pages explain what happens to Altair after the events of AC1. He appears to have married a Templar woman (her picture is in one of the pages) after his first wife dies. I think this is what the whole "combined/mixed seed" stuff refers to. This same "mixing" of Templar and Assassin might also be suggested in the Truth segments.
The sex and birth scene in the Templar stronghold during Desmond's strange flashback seems to confirm that. We see him sleep with a Templar woman and then we see Desmond experience their unborn child's consciousness. There's much more in the codex pages, but that's what I got from my initial read-through.
Desmond's story:
Again, pretty straight forward (not counting the "meta-story"). I do wish there had been more of it like in the first one. Not much really happens. He escapes from Abstergo with Lucy's help. He re-enters the animus (using data collected from subject 16's animus ?). Then they fend off the Abstergo goons and get away.
The Ones Who Came Before:
Here's where conjecture comes into play. To me, I assumed that they were the future incarnation of humanity. Through some device (similar to the animus) they were able to return to the past (to escape some great calamity) and recreate themselves in the past in order to avoid their own disastrous present. The question, though, is whether they actually return to the past (time travel) or if it's a virtual return to the past (like the animus). If the former, then they are actively attempting to create an alternate history; if the latter, then they are trying to find a solution in the past to their present predicament.
There are also many references to the Leda and the Swan myth (in which Zeus turned himself into a swan and slept with a human). Impossible to say where/how the Assassins and Templars fit into this, but the myth does seem to confirm some idea of cross-bloodedness (either Assassin with Templar, human with super-humans, etc).
War?
I must have missed this. I didn't catch any reference to a war between the humans and the Ones. But judging by the imagery in the glyphs, it seems like shortly after the humans (or cloned Ones) were created as "Adam and Eve" they rebelled and escaped. It'd make more sense in terms of the backstory if the Cain and Able stuff refers instead to later humans warring with one another (for control of the stolen PEs), a war that's still going on between the Templars and Assassins. I'll have to go back through the glyph puzzles and AC1 material to figure this out.
Overall thoughts:
So here's my best guess as to how this story works. The whole Assassin's Creed universe works like Vico's cyclical conception of history (or Blake's, or Yeats's). History works according to large cycles that continually repeat the same events.
At the largest scale, the destruction of the earth keeps repeating. The Ones Who Came Before attempt to change history and avoid the destruction of the planet, but it keeps happening over and over again. It's unclear yet how this works, but that seems to be the upshot of the message left for Desmond.
At the next level, the Templars and Assassins keep playing out the same battles over the Pieces of Eden. Moments in history (like the Crusades and Renaissance Italy) repeat the same battles over and over. The glyphs highlight a whole series of similar events that are consequences of this endlessly recycled battle.
At another level, the layered experience of reality forms endless concentric circles (just like in one of the codex pages). Altair's experience within Ezio's within Desmond's. And it could go even further in either direction. The whole "meta" experience is a type of cycle.
There's a lot left to figure out. And there's enough stuff floating around already in both AC1 and AC2 that we could figure out a lot of it without having to wait for AC3.
Any thoughts/responses?
Hardly anyone's trying to make sense of what happened in the game in this thread. Is it because no one understands it? The story thread we had going for AC1 did a much better job of trying to parse out the nuances of the plot. So far, most folks here are just conjecturing about a sequel.
Anyway, here are some of my thoughts, divided according to the storyline:
Ezio's story:
There isn't much that needs to be explained here. It's all told in a straight-forward way.
The problem is that there seems to have been some major cuts to this part of the game. There are no main story missions in Forli (presumably being saved for the "Battle of Forli"), and the whole southern section of Florence is off limits (presumably being saved for the "Bonfire of the Vanities"). That makes the whole middle section of the game a meandering mess. Ezio isn't after anything in particular, and no one is guiding him. His uncle completely disappears. And not until the end do you get any real development of who the Assassins are and what they're after. That's too late.
Altair's story:
The codex pages explain what happens to Altair after the events of AC1. He appears to have married a Templar woman (her picture is in one of the pages) after his first wife dies. I think this is what the whole "combined/mixed seed" stuff refers to. This same "mixing" of Templar and Assassin might also be suggested in the Truth segments.
The sex and birth scene in the Templar stronghold during Desmond's strange flashback seems to confirm that. We see him sleep with a Templar woman and then we see Desmond experience their unborn child's consciousness. There's much more in the codex pages, but that's what I got from my initial read-through.
Desmond's story:
Again, pretty straight forward (not counting the "meta-story"). I do wish there had been more of it like in the first one. Not much really happens. He escapes from Abstergo with Lucy's help. He re-enters the animus (using data collected from subject 16's animus ?). Then they fend off the Abstergo goons and get away.
The Ones Who Came Before:
Here's where conjecture comes into play. To me, I assumed that they were the future incarnation of humanity. Through some device (similar to the animus) they were able to return to the past (to escape some great calamity) and recreate themselves in the past in order to avoid their own disastrous present. The question, though, is whether they actually return to the past (time travel) or if it's a virtual return to the past (like the animus). If the former, then they are actively attempting to create an alternate history; if the latter, then they are trying to find a solution in the past to their present predicament.
There are also many references to the Leda and the Swan myth (in which Zeus turned himself into a swan and slept with a human). Impossible to say where/how the Assassins and Templars fit into this, but the myth does seem to confirm some idea of cross-bloodedness (either Assassin with Templar, human with super-humans, etc).
War?
I must have missed this. I didn't catch any reference to a war between the humans and the Ones. But judging by the imagery in the glyphs, it seems like shortly after the humans (or cloned Ones) were created as "Adam and Eve" they rebelled and escaped. It'd make more sense in terms of the backstory if the Cain and Able stuff refers instead to later humans warring with one another (for control of the stolen PEs), a war that's still going on between the Templars and Assassins. I'll have to go back through the glyph puzzles and AC1 material to figure this out.
Overall thoughts:
So here's my best guess as to how this story works. The whole Assassin's Creed universe works like Vico's cyclical conception of history (or Blake's, or Yeats's). History works according to large cycles that continually repeat the same events.
At the largest scale, the destruction of the earth keeps repeating. The Ones Who Came Before attempt to change history and avoid the destruction of the planet, but it keeps happening over and over again. It's unclear yet how this works, but that seems to be the upshot of the message left for Desmond.
At the next level, the Templars and Assassins keep playing out the same battles over the Pieces of Eden. Moments in history (like the Crusades and Renaissance Italy) repeat the same battles over and over. The glyphs highlight a whole series of similar events that are consequences of this endlessly recycled battle.
At another level, the layered experience of reality forms endless concentric circles (just like in one of the codex pages). Altair's experience within Ezio's within Desmond's. And it could go even further in either direction. The whole "meta" experience is a type of cycle.
There's a lot left to figure out. And there's enough stuff floating around already in both AC1 and AC2 that we could figure out a lot of it without having to wait for AC3.
Any thoughts/responses?
Haunted
Member
Yeah, conspiracy porn sounds about right.
I do admit that it's a guilty pleasure of mine, though (along with time-travel stories, which is sorta integrated in AC as well
) so I thought it was pretty awesome when that hologram broke the 4th (in-game) wall. They really know how to end the AC games on a high note, both nailed these OH SHI- moments shortly before the end. Well done, chaps.
Been a joy reading this thread, although some of the suggestions for future games were terrible. I mean, Atlantis? wtf is wrong with you people? :lol
I do admit that it's a guilty pleasure of mine, though (along with time-travel stories, which is sorta integrated in AC as well
) so I thought it was pretty awesome when that hologram broke the 4th (in-game) wall. They really know how to end the AC games on a high note, both nailed these OH SHI- moments shortly before the end. Well done, chaps.Been a joy reading this thread, although some of the suggestions for future games were terrible. I mean, Atlantis? wtf is wrong with you people? :lol
GillianSeed79
Member
I beat the game last week so my memory of the end sequence is not that fresh, but here's my idea for the sequel.
At the end you're told to seek out the other temples apparently scattered throughout the world.
I think it would be cool to play as multiple ancestors throughout history via the Animus instead of just one to discover their location. Then the game could switch to the present to have Desmond actually go to the present day locations.
It could play out kind of like Eternal Darkness.
At the end you're told to seek out the other temples apparently scattered throughout the world.
I think it would be cool to play as multiple ancestors throughout history via the Animus instead of just one to discover their location. Then the game could switch to the present to have Desmond actually go to the present day locations.
It could play out kind of like Eternal Darkness.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
Finished the game yesterday and finished the Truth glyphs today. Just fucking wow. I totally didn't expect the story to go that way.
WRT when the next game will take place, my bet is that it's going to cover the 20th century. Like around the time of the World Wars and maybe even up to the Cold War. Maybe you'll even still have the hidden blade for ceremonial purposes but obviously you'd need some guns too.
The reason that I think they're going to do something modern is that in any other period of time between the Renaissance and today, firearms are going to be the main weapon for armies and police. If they want to have you using guns, it might make more sense to have you go all out and use relatively modern guns. Then again, the first firearms were designed so that after you fired your first shot in close-quarters, you would turn it around and use the blunt side of the gun for close-quarters fighting. Even the close-quarters trench fighting in WW1 was mostly done with knives and bayonets.
WRT when the next game will take place, my bet is that it's going to cover the 20th century. Like around the time of the World Wars and maybe even up to the Cold War. Maybe you'll even still have the hidden blade for ceremonial purposes but obviously you'd need some guns too.
The reason that I think they're going to do something modern is that in any other period of time between the Renaissance and today, firearms are going to be the main weapon for armies and police. If they want to have you using guns, it might make more sense to have you go all out and use relatively modern guns. Then again, the first firearms were designed so that after you fired your first shot in close-quarters, you would turn it around and use the blunt side of the gun for close-quarters fighting. Even the close-quarters trench fighting in WW1 was mostly done with knives and bayonets.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Exarchos said:I don't care what anyone else thinks, this mother fucker right here is Sam Fisher.
Crazymoogle
Member
bigswords said:
Er...since you can do them in any order, I'm just guessing you mean the one where they talk about Evolution as a cover-up to prevent any hint of humanity being a modification of another, older race. No spiders or ants. :lol
bigswords said:
I get the feeling she wasn't talking directly but instead was giving a pre-recorded genetic message, aiming her comments directly at the viewer. Since Desmond was the viewer, his name was spoken in the sequence, but presumably if another member of his direct bloodline had access to the animus before, they would have heard their own names as well.
Where fate comes in is that Minerva expects a certain "chosen one", and that seems to be Desmond, ensuring nobody else could have heard the message prior (save Ezio, cluelessly out of the loop.)
conman said:
Really no idea how you missed it, seemed to be pretty well spelled out by Minerva during the endgame. But yeah, they made the humans as tools in their own image, with the PEs being control devices (hence the genetic receptors). Adam and Eve are the first to rebel and somehow escape the PEs influence, attempting to wield them on their own. This leads to the war between races. Cain and Abel seem to lead us into the whole Templar business that comes later.
As stated in parts of the thread, the assassin's may have some level of shared traits with the other species, allowing for eagle-vision and some of the extreme agility shown, as well as Adam and Eve's rudimentary resistance to the effects of the PE apple. Not all of the PEs have mind-control effects though, meaning that many were just artifacts of the civilization (the sword, for instance.) It appears Tesla deals with the staff..?
Altair's story is apparently covered in a fair bit of detail through the new AC PSP game. Either way, AC2 makes it pretty clear that Altair is the only one for quite some time to have any grasp of just how powerful the PEs are. The Falcons are almost cavalier by comparison.
finished the game yesterday. it was pretty good... until the end....
ok, these aliens or whatever they are are crazy but it's still ok for me. but i really hate these fucking cliffhanger endings. really. i played this game for hours and suddenly it stops.
"uh, just wait for Ass 3. bla bla bla"
this makes me angry.
ok, these aliens or whatever they are are crazy but it's still ok for me. but i really hate these fucking cliffhanger endings. really. i played this game for hours and suddenly it stops.
"uh, just wait for Ass 3. bla bla bla"
this makes me angry.
infinityBCRT
Member
I think a game where you are Desmond in a current day place and having access to the past at the same time would be a great way to continue progressing the story while keeping the historical awesomeness. I also wouldn't mind if they killed off Desmond and had another subject or ditched the Animus altogether after they are done telling his story.duckroll said:There will NEVER be an AC game where you play exclusively as Desmond. Here's why:
The appeal of the series is that it is a historical simulation, allowing you to explore a period era location with awesome architecture and learn about historical structures while being able to climb and examine them in a virtual setting. This cannot change, or the game will bomb. There's no point trying to complete the "story" at the expense of the main selling point of the series. No one really wants that.
From the ending of AC2, it is clear that there's much more they need from Desmond's memory. Minerva talked about the temples that would be needed to save the world from the solar disaster. That's probably what they will need next. Perhaps the next game will have various chapters taking place in different eras and locations instead, each relating to a temple. This would mean instead of 4 cities in the same continent, it would be 4 major cities in different parts of the world set in different time periods. That would be cool.
Obviously the main narrative would still be about Desmond, but aside from missions taking place in-between, like in AC2, I don't see them ever ditching the entire Animus concept. The bleeding effect will certainly be a great excuse to allow the Desmond narrative and the period narratives to "blend" regardless of location or what's happening. It would allow them to not limit themselves to a set location where Desmond is stuck in a machine. But other than that, the overall concept of AC has to remain the same because that's WHY the games are so good.
infinityBCRT
Member
But if they added interiors it would more than make up for not having large buildings. Instead of jumping in some random gondalas placed on roofs it would be cool to slip into a building and then go out the back door to lose the guards.duckroll said:
infinityBCRT
Member
That would be kinda cool if they were doing that-- I remember that large sections of Shenmue 2 were already done when the first game shipped (the original trailers of Shenmue showed parts of the second game).macfoshizzle said:
Most sense would still be a New World colonial situation. Spanish invasion of Incan empire? British settlement in New England? Game could take place in both Europe and the Americas. That setting also keeps the whole money/power/conspiracy thing going strong. Opens up many opportunities for interesting locales, cultures, and languages. And it keeps the historical timeline moving forward (12th century to 15th c. to 16th/17th c.).
Some thoughts on the story:
Groups (overlap allowed):
Those Who Came Before (TWCB)
- aliens, future humans who traveled back in time or simply the first advanced race on Earth, we've been told we can never understand their origin so lets not expect to get a definite answer there. Where they came from doesn't REALLY matter.
- They created humans in their image and use POEs to control us. The neurotransmitter that interacts with the POE was added at this time (unless they already had it as well, which is possible). We did not evolve from apes, we were created by the 'Gods' from 'dust' - i.e. grown in a lab?
- They use POEs very effectively, to control, educate, learn and so on. We don't know if they created the POEs or just stumbled on them and learned how to use them.
- safe to assume they had some powers unrelated to POEs, such as Eagle Vision and natural athleticism, but its likely a lot of their abilities came from POEs such as long life, seeing the future, advanced technologies (see Altair's Codex).
- Like God and the garden of Eden story, they did not create humans to be slaves. They were workers and servants, perhaps lovers and companions. But they were looked after, happy in their ignorance, living in a veritable paradise. TWCB felt betrayed by the humans who rebelled against the paradise.
- They waged war, resisting the idea of their creations being given freedom of knowledge and opinion. The power and control was safer in the hands of a select few and the masses should be happy to live content, peaceful lives, ignorance is bliss.
- We don't know how Adam and Eve Broke out of the POE influence in order to rebel. We might do well to assume a snake was involved. Perhaps a TWCB who believed in freedom of knowledge, who gave Eve the apple and took her innocence. If this is the case, we see even back then there were hints of templar/assassin factions struggling against each other. Considering humans are made in their image, this should not come as a surprise.
- Solar flare wipes out their already small civilisation, the remaining few are forced to collaborate with humans to rebuild the world.
- They live among humans as rulers or figures of status, wise leaders who had learnt valuable lessons from the war and had come to terms with a human race who would not be oppressed. This period was the basis for all modern day religions as the stories and teachings passed down intended to provide guidance. Minerva doesn't say ALL TWCB did this, but specifically those who turned their back on war. There could be others.
- They procreate with humans and leave offspring with superhuman abilities such as the ability to resist the POE influence.
- They eventually die out and leave Earth to the humans.
Humans
- created by TWCB
- humanity was created when Adam and Eve were somehow enlightened.
- I'm assuming someone who lived by the Assassin code of freedom of knowledge was behind the escape, which leads the Templar to say "The birth of humanity. The truth makes me sick." This person has been branded a snake.
- I don't believe Adam and Eve were assassin/templar, but its likely they were manipulated by one or the other.
- Following the passing of TWCB, humans have passed on the teachings as religions and over the years the concepts have been misunderstood, corrupted and abused.
- human history has been shaped by the influence of POEs and it would seem are following a similar path to TWCB.
Templars
- Templar concept seems to be that the world is better off in the hands of a trusted few and they will stop at nothing to ensure the right people stay at the top and are very aggressive in making sure they hold all the pieces. Sounds bad, but I bet in a way we all agree. I'm not about to trust North Korea with the ability to make nuclear weapons or the ability to produce spaceships. So Templars are not inherently evil.
- Cain is supposedly the first Templar, killing his brother to gain complete control over a POE. Someone or something must have influenced him into doing this. Perhaps one of TWCB who still believed that power and knowledge is too dangerous to share with unreliable parties.
- hold many positions of power and over the years. have amassed many POE and have used them to lie to the public. Control of knowledge is again oppressing the population. No real idea of how things work behind the scenes.
- Religion has been misunderstood, likely twisted by the templar from a collection of teachings to a doctrine used to enable loyalty and control.
- have been known to kill many important historical figures in order to gain POEs.
- the moon landing was either faked, using the POE to convince the public it was all real, or it was purely a mission to retrieve a POE from the moon. I'm going with the lie.
- too many parallels with TWCB. Either humans are falling for the same temptations TWCB did or the two main concepts and factions are destined to keep appearing throughout history. Whether there's a shadowy organisation behind it all or whether its just straight up human nature we don't know.
- seem to be susceptible to corruption. a lot of the players are depicted as evil, power craving tyrants.
Assassins
- Like Tesla said, wars and so on are the result of bad communication which stems from bad education and lack of knowledge (which brings with it a degree of enlightenment). Assassin's believe in freedom of knowledge and will stop at nothing to protect that. Given the Templar stance, they make natural enemies. This idea was possibly related to the Adam and Eve escape, which in turn means the roots of this concept lie with the snake.
- There are some assassin's who seem to have descended from TWCB and have extraordinary abilities.
- Have been behind many famous deaths throughout history.
- The people they killed went down in history as tyrannical, I could be wrong, but the idea is they kill the bad guys. and thats it? The people the templar kill go down as heroes who bring a nation together and inspire people for generations, JFK, Joan of Arc....what effects have the assassin kills had? Killing the real Hitler for example. Bit late wasnt it? More retribution than making a difference?
- Do they only exist to stop the templars when they inevitably get corrupted by their role? and other forms of POE abuse.
MISC
people like Joan Of Arc, Napoleon, King Arthur, Genghis Khan. All made use of POE, but we dont know which side they were on. Were they just hybrid TWCB descendents who stumbled onto a POE and made use of it or did they play their part in some ages long war played out by 2 factions? We know Genghis Khan and Cleopatra were assassinated so they weren't on our side, but what of the people the Templars killed? Or those who are depicted as heroes by history books.
Why do people the assassin's kill go down as tyrants if its the templars who write the history books?
I've rambled on far too long and probably uncovered some plot holes in the process. Glad I got this out of my system. Back on with normal life!
Groups (overlap allowed):
Those Who Came Before (TWCB)
- aliens, future humans who traveled back in time or simply the first advanced race on Earth, we've been told we can never understand their origin so lets not expect to get a definite answer there. Where they came from doesn't REALLY matter.
- They created humans in their image and use POEs to control us. The neurotransmitter that interacts with the POE was added at this time (unless they already had it as well, which is possible). We did not evolve from apes, we were created by the 'Gods' from 'dust' - i.e. grown in a lab?
- They use POEs very effectively, to control, educate, learn and so on. We don't know if they created the POEs or just stumbled on them and learned how to use them.
- safe to assume they had some powers unrelated to POEs, such as Eagle Vision and natural athleticism, but its likely a lot of their abilities came from POEs such as long life, seeing the future, advanced technologies (see Altair's Codex).
- Like God and the garden of Eden story, they did not create humans to be slaves. They were workers and servants, perhaps lovers and companions. But they were looked after, happy in their ignorance, living in a veritable paradise. TWCB felt betrayed by the humans who rebelled against the paradise.
- They waged war, resisting the idea of their creations being given freedom of knowledge and opinion. The power and control was safer in the hands of a select few and the masses should be happy to live content, peaceful lives, ignorance is bliss.
- We don't know how Adam and Eve Broke out of the POE influence in order to rebel. We might do well to assume a snake was involved. Perhaps a TWCB who believed in freedom of knowledge, who gave Eve the apple and took her innocence. If this is the case, we see even back then there were hints of templar/assassin factions struggling against each other. Considering humans are made in their image, this should not come as a surprise.
- Solar flare wipes out their already small civilisation, the remaining few are forced to collaborate with humans to rebuild the world.
- They live among humans as rulers or figures of status, wise leaders who had learnt valuable lessons from the war and had come to terms with a human race who would not be oppressed. This period was the basis for all modern day religions as the stories and teachings passed down intended to provide guidance. Minerva doesn't say ALL TWCB did this, but specifically those who turned their back on war. There could be others.
- They procreate with humans and leave offspring with superhuman abilities such as the ability to resist the POE influence.
- They eventually die out and leave Earth to the humans.
Humans
- created by TWCB
- humanity was created when Adam and Eve were somehow enlightened.
- I'm assuming someone who lived by the Assassin code of freedom of knowledge was behind the escape, which leads the Templar to say "The birth of humanity. The truth makes me sick." This person has been branded a snake.
- I don't believe Adam and Eve were assassin/templar, but its likely they were manipulated by one or the other.
- Following the passing of TWCB, humans have passed on the teachings as religions and over the years the concepts have been misunderstood, corrupted and abused.
- human history has been shaped by the influence of POEs and it would seem are following a similar path to TWCB.
Templars
- Templar concept seems to be that the world is better off in the hands of a trusted few and they will stop at nothing to ensure the right people stay at the top and are very aggressive in making sure they hold all the pieces. Sounds bad, but I bet in a way we all agree. I'm not about to trust North Korea with the ability to make nuclear weapons or the ability to produce spaceships. So Templars are not inherently evil.
- Cain is supposedly the first Templar, killing his brother to gain complete control over a POE. Someone or something must have influenced him into doing this. Perhaps one of TWCB who still believed that power and knowledge is too dangerous to share with unreliable parties.
- hold many positions of power and over the years. have amassed many POE and have used them to lie to the public. Control of knowledge is again oppressing the population. No real idea of how things work behind the scenes.
- Religion has been misunderstood, likely twisted by the templar from a collection of teachings to a doctrine used to enable loyalty and control.
- have been known to kill many important historical figures in order to gain POEs.
- the moon landing was either faked, using the POE to convince the public it was all real, or it was purely a mission to retrieve a POE from the moon. I'm going with the lie.
- too many parallels with TWCB. Either humans are falling for the same temptations TWCB did or the two main concepts and factions are destined to keep appearing throughout history. Whether there's a shadowy organisation behind it all or whether its just straight up human nature we don't know.
- seem to be susceptible to corruption. a lot of the players are depicted as evil, power craving tyrants.
Assassins
- Like Tesla said, wars and so on are the result of bad communication which stems from bad education and lack of knowledge (which brings with it a degree of enlightenment). Assassin's believe in freedom of knowledge and will stop at nothing to protect that. Given the Templar stance, they make natural enemies. This idea was possibly related to the Adam and Eve escape, which in turn means the roots of this concept lie with the snake.
- There are some assassin's who seem to have descended from TWCB and have extraordinary abilities.
- Have been behind many famous deaths throughout history.
- The people they killed went down in history as tyrannical, I could be wrong, but the idea is they kill the bad guys. and thats it? The people the templar kill go down as heroes who bring a nation together and inspire people for generations, JFK, Joan of Arc....what effects have the assassin kills had? Killing the real Hitler for example. Bit late wasnt it? More retribution than making a difference?
- Do they only exist to stop the templars when they inevitably get corrupted by their role? and other forms of POE abuse.
MISC
people like Joan Of Arc, Napoleon, King Arthur, Genghis Khan. All made use of POE, but we dont know which side they were on. Were they just hybrid TWCB descendents who stumbled onto a POE and made use of it or did they play their part in some ages long war played out by 2 factions? We know Genghis Khan and Cleopatra were assassinated so they weren't on our side, but what of the people the Templars killed? Or those who are depicted as heroes by history books.
Why do people the assassin's kill go down as tyrants if its the templars who write the history books?
I've rambled on far too long and probably uncovered some plot holes in the process. Glad I got this out of my system. Back on with normal life!
Cool thoughts!
Some responses:
"It's turtles all the way down," as Stephen Hawking once said.
It's also worth noting that Minerva says that their warring distracted them from the real threat (natural disaster). She's sent not to aid the Assassins, but to refocus Desmond away from the war with the Templar order and toward an even bigger and more devastating "enemy." Both sides are "wrong" according to Minerva. I'm assuming this will become more clear in subsequent games as we learn more about the present-day Assassins.
Some responses:
If this is the case, then something changed by the time Adam and Eve escape. They clearly see humans as unwilling slaves as they climb the building. A shadowy figure holds an apple, manipulating the humans to work for them. Could be a Matrix-like trick where the humans believe they're doing something "happily," but Adam and Eve see The Truth.kaizoku said:
This fits well with the Gnostic overtones of the plot. In many of the early Gnostic interpretations of the Adam and Eve story, the snake was a figure of good. It's possible that a TWCB (or multiple) thought they were mistreating the humans and staged a process of enlightenment and escape--very similar to Desmond's experience with the Assassins.
Or more correctly, two factions of TWCB who resemble the later human organizations called Assassins and Templars, but remember that those two groups don't exist until roughly the 12th century. But, yes, there's definitely a hint that a similar divide existed already among TWCB and among humans (like Cain) prior to the 12th century. As you say, there were those among TWCB who turned their backs to conflict, which implies that there were also those who did not. The fact that some "snake" (or snakes, plural) from among TWCB helped or encouraged Adam and Eve to escape suggests that conflict/dischord already existed among TWCB.
That's a good ideological summary. The Templars are committed to "shepherding" humanity through ideological manipulation. They favor control and hierarchy. In contrast, the Assassins are all about spreading disillusionment ("nothing is true") and anarchy ("everything is permitted"). In a sense, they are radical democrats who believe that all are equal and free.
I think there's more to it than this, though it remains unclear in the mythology we've been provided so far. I don't think they mean that Cain was literally a Templar (since the Templar didn't exist back then), but that he signified the initial divide among humans who up to then had been like minded in their belief in universal enlightenment and freedom.
Judging by the plot of these games and by the glyph puzzles, the Templar order seems less interested in outright killing their enemies. They're much more interested in manipulating them (driving Tesla mad, for example). The Assassins are the ones doing the killing of historical figures (hence the name's association with killing political figures).
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Remember that in the first game, Abstergo's plot is to launch PoE's into space as satellites to broadcast their version of reality to the rest of humanity. Who's to say that someone else (among TWCB) hadn't already done this? It happened in the movie 2001, why not here?
Exactly. Humans were created in their image, including in their disagreements. In Milton's version of Paradise, Adam and Eve were fallen well before they ate of the apple and were reflections of the great schism in heaven. A major trope of this series is that history repeats itself over and over again. The same wars. The same factions. Even the same geological disaster cycles. Everything repeats.
"It's turtles all the way down," as Stephen Hawking once said.
Theirs is a war over ideology, not over lives. The Templar incapacitate those who aim to democratize enlightenment (and communication), while the Assassins kill those who aim to dictate the flow of knowledge (and information). Neither side expresses much regret over killing or dying. The moral stance of both sides is shaky at best. This isn't a moral war, and there's been a consistent attempt in the series to trouble which side is "good." Al Mualim was the primary villain in the first game, after all, and he was the leader of the Assassins in the Holy Land (the central location of the Assassins was in ancient Iran which isn't dealt with in the game IIRC). It remains to be seen what the present-day Assassins are after. So far, they've done nothing particularly "good."
It's also worth noting that Minerva says that their warring distracted them from the real threat (natural disaster). She's sent not to aid the Assassins, but to refocus Desmond away from the war with the Templar order and toward an even bigger and more devastating "enemy." Both sides are "wrong" according to Minerva. I'm assuming this will become more clear in subsequent games as we learn more about the present-day Assassins.
I don't know if it's made clear who kills whom. Is it? I don't remember it ever saying "Templars killed X" and "Assassins killed Y." I operated under the assumption that it was always the Assassins doing the killing, but I could be wrong. Regardless, your (and my) uncertainty shows that the acts of the Assassins and the Templar aren't very different when looked at in hindsight. This is also part of Minerva's point. They didn't recognize their error until it was too late. It's a pretty corny "lesson" to the series, but it doesn't make it any less true or powerful. Both sides are wrong.
ok so I beat it, read some wiki's and think I have a pretty good understanding except one thing. the lady at the end warns you of an upcoming apocalypse, and that's what 16's warnings were about.. why are the modern day companies fighting each other? shouldn't they both want desmond to go in and see how to prevent the apocalypse? what good is power if the world is about to die. if 16 discovered this, shouldn't whoever was monitoring him at the time know about it too?
and one other thing, you can only relive the memories of ancestors in the animus? they already used desmond for altair and ezio..how many assassin ancestors does this guy have. and the 'god' lady at the end mentioned desmond by name. ezio must have a ton of ancestors, why is it only desmond is the prophet, what about the rest of ezio's "ancestees"
and one other thing, you can only relive the memories of ancestors in the animus? they already used desmond for altair and ezio..how many assassin ancestors does this guy have. and the 'god' lady at the end mentioned desmond by name. ezio must have a ton of ancestors, why is it only desmond is the prophet, what about the rest of ezio's "ancestees"
veggiestick2000
Member
What is the red thing attached to Eve's upper arm in the Truth video?
ike Desmond said "WTF" at the ending of the game.....shit they took this to a completely different level. And the ending credits were awesome!!!!
Didn't really understand it too well, but WTF was with the ending? Aliens??? The sun exploding? so the original inhabiants of Earth rebuild the planet and it's about to explode again???
I'm confused as Hell but i'm awed at where they're taking this series...FUCKING AWESOME
Felt like they rushed the ending a bit in terms of the events happening...like 10 years going by etc
Didn't really understand it too well, but WTF was with the ending? Aliens??? The sun exploding? so the original inhabiants of Earth rebuild the planet and it's about to explode again???
I'm confused as Hell but i'm awed at where they're taking this series...FUCKING AWESOME
Felt like they rushed the ending a bit in terms of the events happening...like 10 years going by etc
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
If subject 16 goes all the way back to Adam, then shouldn't that mean his bloodline goes back that far? So it should be safe to assume that Adam and Eve were the first offspring of Humans and TWCB, right? Maybe that is all it took for them to become a bit more "enlightened" with the truth and lead to their rebellion. The last few posts seem to mention that this union between humans and TWCB happened after the events of The Truth video but I don't see that making sense.
I like the idea someone mentioned about TWCB as people coming from the future using an advanced version of the animus. It may be hard to make this work, but it's an excellent idea.
As for an AC3 idea: If they go with the modern day stuff and have the bleeding effect bring us to the past, it'd be nice to have the spastic time jumps that subject 16 experienced. Besides fuedal Japan, another idea that has been bouncing around my head that I wouldn't want to see a full game on is WWII. As cliche as that seems, imagine an assassin character with a hidden blade (or 2), a sniper rifle and a pistol that is not on either side of the trenches but must blur himself on the battlefield to get to the target(s). Imagine the war torn urban setting with AC's engine. Holy shit. This would be a great way to show Konami/Kojima how to do a warzone sneaking mission correctly. Though I can see it now... they'll have a Snake outfit unlockable just like they had an Altair get up in MGS4... no thanks lol.
I like the idea someone mentioned about TWCB as people coming from the future using an advanced version of the animus. It may be hard to make this work, but it's an excellent idea.
As for an AC3 idea: If they go with the modern day stuff and have the bleeding effect bring us to the past, it'd be nice to have the spastic time jumps that subject 16 experienced. Besides fuedal Japan, another idea that has been bouncing around my head that I wouldn't want to see a full game on is WWII. As cliche as that seems, imagine an assassin character with a hidden blade (or 2), a sniper rifle and a pistol that is not on either side of the trenches but must blur himself on the battlefield to get to the target(s). Imagine the war torn urban setting with AC's engine. Holy shit. This would be a great way to show Konami/Kojima how to do a warzone sneaking mission correctly. Though I can see it now... they'll have a Snake outfit unlockable just like they had an Altair get up in MGS4... no thanks lol.
dreamer3kx
Member
Just finished the game today, I give around a 9.2, Im going to try and get a plat, would be my first, Im currently getting all the feathers, wow that is going to be a grind, I only had about 29 when I finished.