It's going to be funny watching them try to switch gears into a fun, enjoyable movie with dramatic elements suitable for an action hero movie, rather than the grimdark and melodramatic stuff Snyder probably already had planned. I'm guessing it's going to be a bit of a disjointed mess without any real direction, but serviceable enough to where audiences will shrug and say "well, I guess I'll watch another DC movie after this".
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'Batman v Superman' Fallout: Warner Bros. Shakes Up Executive Roles
- Thread starter ryan299
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
Why else would they release it awards season? Fucker gonna win Best Picture at the Oscars. Praise Lord Snyder!
Eesh, would have preferred whatever Snyder and Terrio had cooked up if that's the case.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
After Batman v Superman, I don't think people are going to turn up for Justice League just to see Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman played by nobodies. This will be another disaster.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Agreed about the tone. Bad as MoS and BvS was, at least the tone was consistent throughout. Justice League may well turn out to be downright schizophrenic in its tone and story, much like Fant4stic. As for Box office, we'll see. If SS and WW have bad WoM, I could see Justice League not even having a good opening weekend when it comes out.
That was another concern of mine. The Flash seems miscast, Aquaman's design is kind of lazy and is starting to feel dated even though he hasn't even been in a movie outside of ten seconds of stabbing a camera with a fork. Cyborg, well, seems like a character DC keeps trying to make stick and no one is interested - though I heard they're holding off on his movie until they see how the reception to JL is. So maybe they're learning?
I think that Justice League is salvageable from a tone perspective.
I say they run wild with the grim dark nature of MoS and BvS. Let the start of the movie deal with the ramifications of BvS, and introduce the dangerous threat. Let the latter half of the movie be our Justice League getting their shit together and bringing genuine hope to the world by the end of it. Then, in the next Justice League film can carry forward with that new tone in place.
The problem with the DCCU isn't that it's grimdark, it's that it's characters, every single last one of them, is grimdark. There's no contrast. Batman and Superman work so well in comics and cartoons because of the contrast. Batman is the cynical pessimist who does right out of a thirst for vengeance. Superman is the idealistic optimist, who does right out of a thirst for peace. Their methods conflict. Having Superman question his purpose and place in the world is ace. That's classic Superman. But at the end of the day, he is truly a beacon of hope that loves people. He doesn't want to see humanity suffer when he can do something about it, and he'll die to do it if he must.
WB/DC's take on grimdark is sophomoric at best. It's the type of "angst" that you'd put in your fan fiction comics in high school. No, DC doesn't have to copy what marvel is doing, but they do have to be true to the characters, and let the characters best traits shine.
Do you think fans liked Iron Man because it was goofy and light hearted? No, they liked t because they were true to Tony Stark, but also cast an incredibly charismatic lead and let him be charismatic.
Chris Nolan managed to balance the dark tone of Batman with a grounded world, and a bit of levity as well. Even Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns wasn't a completely dour, pessimistic Batman story.
DC needs more faith in their amazing characters, and need to hire filmmakers that don't just understand and love the characters, but have a knack for strong storytelling, both visually and narratively. Snyder and crew absolutely nail visual storytelling, but he lacks the deft hand needed to direct his talented cast, and the screenwriters fail to capture why characters like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman have endured for 75+ years.
I hope these changes and shakeups result in better movies. The DC Universe deserves as much love and success as the Marvel films, in my opinion. I'm a huge fan of both, so I want both to be awesome, and I hope one day image comics can grace the big and small screen as well.
I say they run wild with the grim dark nature of MoS and BvS. Let the start of the movie deal with the ramifications of BvS, and introduce the dangerous threat. Let the latter half of the movie be our Justice League getting their shit together and bringing genuine hope to the world by the end of it. Then, in the next Justice League film can carry forward with that new tone in place.
The problem with the DCCU isn't that it's grimdark, it's that it's characters, every single last one of them, is grimdark. There's no contrast. Batman and Superman work so well in comics and cartoons because of the contrast. Batman is the cynical pessimist who does right out of a thirst for vengeance. Superman is the idealistic optimist, who does right out of a thirst for peace. Their methods conflict. Having Superman question his purpose and place in the world is ace. That's classic Superman. But at the end of the day, he is truly a beacon of hope that loves people. He doesn't want to see humanity suffer when he can do something about it, and he'll die to do it if he must.
WB/DC's take on grimdark is sophomoric at best. It's the type of "angst" that you'd put in your fan fiction comics in high school. No, DC doesn't have to copy what marvel is doing, but they do have to be true to the characters, and let the characters best traits shine.
Do you think fans liked Iron Man because it was goofy and light hearted? No, they liked t because they were true to Tony Stark, but also cast an incredibly charismatic lead and let him be charismatic.
Chris Nolan managed to balance the dark tone of Batman with a grounded world, and a bit of levity as well. Even Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns wasn't a completely dour, pessimistic Batman story.
DC needs more faith in their amazing characters, and need to hire filmmakers that don't just understand and love the characters, but have a knack for strong storytelling, both visually and narratively. Snyder and crew absolutely nail visual storytelling, but he lacks the deft hand needed to direct his talented cast, and the screenwriters fail to capture why characters like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman have endured for 75+ years.
I hope these changes and shakeups result in better movies. The DC Universe deserves as much love and success as the Marvel films, in my opinion. I'm a huge fan of both, so I want both to be awesome, and I hope one day image comics can grace the big and small screen as well.
I was thinking the same thing earlier. If Snyder had went with a lighter Superman, with a stronger representation of his supporting cast at the Daily Planet, the very dark and almost isolated Batman that Affleck brought would have been a stark contrast. Instead both characters were isolated and in a really dark place, and instead of them achieving any real growth or positivity Superman goes and fucking
dies
Very interesting.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I didn't much rate BvS (I think it might be better on blu-ray once all the cut scenes are added back on, for sake of pacing and adding more depth to characters/scenes, etc), but I don't want DCCU to go all fun and campy either.
I liked that it trying its own thing with its own take on how comicbook movies could be, maybe they went too grim but I think there's space for both grim and campy comicbook mvovies. Not all movies have to be campy like most Marvel movies tend to be (which isn't a slight, they just tend to be formulaic as a result) Synder and co just need to find the right balance between grim/realistic and campy/fantastical.
I liked that it trying its own thing with its own take on how comicbook movies could be, maybe they went too grim but I think there's space for both grim and campy comicbook mvovies. Not all movies have to be campy like most Marvel movies tend to be (which isn't a slight, they just tend to be formulaic as a result) Synder and co just need to find the right balance between grim/realistic and campy/fantastical.
If they have a sequence like the 3-way fight at the end of Jurassic World/the airport scene in Civil War, and this'll make money regardless of quality/tone. Don't overestimate what people want - they didn't come out of The Avengers buzzing about quality acting or camerawork, they came out buzzing because Hulk beat the shit out of Loki and the awkward one-shot of superheroes being superheroes and teaming up from The Avengers.
If JL features interesting superhero team ups and has a few good quips, it'll get positive WOM and that'll carry it up past the BvS haul. Much like The Avengers, people will treat it as a singular entity and the audience will be higher than what was before.
And before people go 'BUT BATMAN/SUPERMAN FIRST FILM' maybe it's as simple as people didn't really want to come out in droves to see a film about Batman trying to kill Superman, and then their fight lasting less than ten minutes.
If JL features interesting superhero team ups and has a few good quips, it'll get positive WOM and that'll carry it up past the BvS haul. Much like The Avengers, people will treat it as a singular entity and the audience will be higher than what was before.
And before people go 'BUT BATMAN/SUPERMAN FIRST FILM' maybe it's as simple as people didn't really want to come out in droves to see a film about Batman trying to kill Superman, and then their fight lasting less than ten minutes.
People seem to still be missing the point on the tone and style.
It's not that it's dark it's that it's one note and has little contrast between characters. It's glum and it's dull. Boring almost.
Superman and Batman should contrast but they're both the same. It's like a repeating musical note for 2.5 hours.
The dialogue is also lifeless and needlessly ponderous.
The whole thing feels leaden and joyless and that's not going to attract the attendance they need.
Nolan showed you can be dark - actually TDK is a much more honestly dark and mature film than BvS. It deserves and earns its serious tone. BvS is immature and looks like it's posturing by comparison.
Snyder is and will remain a poor choice. His films almost all feel like this and he simply cannot attain true depth of tone or character. His action scenes while competent fail to feel exciting as a result: you see choreography but don't believe actual characters are involved.
Sure some will like his style but not enough for what they need attendance wise.
It's not that it's dark it's that it's one note and has little contrast between characters. It's glum and it's dull. Boring almost.
Superman and Batman should contrast but they're both the same. It's like a repeating musical note for 2.5 hours.
The dialogue is also lifeless and needlessly ponderous.
The whole thing feels leaden and joyless and that's not going to attract the attendance they need.
Nolan showed you can be dark - actually TDK is a much more honestly dark and mature film than BvS. It deserves and earns its serious tone. BvS is immature and looks like it's posturing by comparison.
Snyder is and will remain a poor choice. His films almost all feel like this and he simply cannot attain true depth of tone or character. His action scenes while competent fail to feel exciting as a result: you see choreography but don't believe actual characters are involved.
Sure some will like his style but not enough for what they need attendance wise.
milanbaros
Member?
Well put. My dislike of BVS didn't come from it being dark and gritty, something I would welcome in a comic book film, but because I felt like life was being sucked out of me watching it. It was so lifeless and dull.
I don't know how the Joker is worth Batman's time. I can see how he can harm Gotham however Batman who has a lifetime of martial arts training and is peak physical condition has trouble with a clown.
Exactly. The fun part about seeing Batman and Superman team up is that they are yin and yang. They balance each other out.
We needed more scenes with Bruce and Clark interacting with each other, and Batman and Superman interacting with each other. We needed a fun scene where they discover each other's secret identities and confront one another. Zack Snyder's idea of humor is, "I think he's kind of hot," (gag, vomit), and "With balls like those, you belong in here," (ugh).
The Dark Knight is a somber movie. It has heavy themes, political undercurrents, and 9/11 imagery, and an overall grim mood. Yet there is plenty of levity, most of it coming from the Joker (we laugh because of how chaotic he is), which also balanced nicely against the serious, stern, and vengeful Batman.
I think the reason why people responded to Affleck's Batman wasn't solely because he was good, but because all of his scenes had him playing off of Alfred, who has always been the sardonic voice of reason to Bruce's one track mind. Those scenes were both humorous and serious. It wasn't over the top goofy (as if Marvel is over the top goofy; never got why people assume Marvel is playing softball with the tones of their movies; they know what's going to resonate and sit comfortably with adults and children, and hey, surprise surprise, it's paying off for them), but it wasn't super straight and stiff like the other 90% of the movie. Even scenes with Bruce and Diana were playful and fun. Those are the moments the movie is comfortable. Then it shifts to Clark/Superman, Lois, or Lex, and the film grinds to an overly-ponderous and pretentious slog. Nobody comes off as charismatic, charming, or interesting. Every single scene that Superman is in has him moody and glum. We don't get a single moment of him enjoying being Superman. Even Spider-Man 2, which was all about Peter struggling to balance his superhero life and his normal life, had moments where he would lose himself being Spider-Man, and have a good time.
But my problems with BvS started with Man of Steel. They dropped the ball crafting Superman's character, and they had a chance to grow him and expand him in BvS, address the issues a lot of us had with MoS, but they didn't. Superman pretty much ends the movie exactly as he started it. Batman and Diana, as little screentime as she has, actually grow as characters. When we next see Superman, he's going to be just as distant to humanity as he was before. He never got the answer to the question of, "Does the world need him." I mentioned a lot of this stuff in my review for the movie, but yeah, he's a painfully undercooked character, which is a shame, because he's fucking Superman. I'm not the biggest fan of the character, but fuck, when he's done right, he shines. For All Seasons, All Star Superman, to name only two, would have been a perfect, absolutely perfect way to kick off the DC cinematic universe. Both stories adapted as two different films, then do a Dawn of Justice movie, then do a Justice League movie, and whatever other solo films you want to do, then come at us with a Batman v Superman movie, followed by a Doomsday movie. So what if you don't keep up with Marvel in terms of how many films you've released. If anything, that means you'll be there to fill the void when Marvel wraps up their phases before they're forced to reboot.
But I'm ranting again. I'm just really disappointed. I want these movies to be so good. I don't even think BvS is bad. Just kind of slightly above mediocre.
man, batman spiraling into an isolated sense of dark dread, fear, and anger would've been a LOT more effective if it had a superman who wasn't doing the exact same thing on the opposite side when he didn't have to be like that
as good as batfleck was, it would've sold it SO much more if there was a contrast to him.
as good as batfleck was, it would've sold it SO much more if there was a contrast to him.
They've done too much groundwork for Supes to turn evil with the Knightmare scene, I feel they'll go the injustice route at some point otherwise the whole scene and Flash's warning were virtually pointless.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
Then we'll wonder how they fucked him up so badly in the first two movies.
Discotheque
Banned
I think that's what they were leading to. Dude accepts his fate as the savior and all that jazz
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
They came out buzzing because Avengers was the first superhero ensemble film to be done well and spectacularly well at that. A couple of stand-out moments does not a film with good word-of-mouth make.
Wonder Woman taking on Doomsday was technically a 'cool' moment. Same with Batman at the warehouse where he destroys fifteen goons - and that even addresses a major complaint people have had in the past that Nolan's Batman was a pansy in close-quarters fighting. There even was a team-up shot of the Trinity in Batman v. Superman.
And yet the audience didn't give a flying fuck about any of these moments. The film's legs crashed from underneath it because it was a shit film.
I think you're really underestimating what the audience sees as a good film and worth recommending. Justice League is not going to be positively received just because of a few moments of superhero kickassery. It needs to be a good film overall.
LMAO okay
Why don't you just out with it and say you didn't like the Avengers bro
Are you kidding me?
Batman fighting Superman in the very first film with both of them in it is the very reason it got a $166 million opening. The only reason.
How anyone can dispute this is fucking insane.
Then they might as well embrace how cheap it all is and give him the brown hair and beard.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Better to be F4 levels of fail than BvS levels of fail imo
Yep. I still wonder if they would have been better off with a sequel to MoS that allowed the character to grow into the contrast of the moody vengeful Batman before putting them together.
They fail horribly at being a yin/yang in BvS. Both of them are just fucking miserable. Its hard for me not to blame that on them rushing this shit out instead of taking their time and developing the characters.
I think that was Terrio's idea, yeah, he said the three films were "Superman's trilogy"
As said I believe it's been strongly suggested by Snyder and Terrio that is the direction they're going in. Terrio has always said that Justice League was going to be lighter in tone and this was way before BvS even came out. For most part BvS was suppose to be the darkest of the "trilogy", which is who Snyder and Terrio were looking at the films, with started with Man of Steel.
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
ice cold
lmao can't wait for Terrio to refer to BvS as the Empire Strikes Back of DCEU or whatever
AntraxSuicide
Banned
I quoted these, but there are other great comments on the tone problem.
TDK really sums up a lot of the problems for WB, and they should use it as the template for tone and whatnot. It was also dark, and brutal at times, but it simply doesn't feel like a chore to watch. I feel tired just thinking about watching BvS in the same way as reading a paper from a student that I know is going to be bland. It's just not interesting.
People mentioned contrasts, and I agree completely. Movies aren't meant to be one-note. There should be rises and falls built into the ride, and characters should be unique under close inspection. I don't get that from Snyder's characters at all, personally. They're all too similar in demeanor for me.
Hopefully, JL avoids the schizophrenic problem that someone mentioned. There's potential to misunderstand criticism and just try to jam some jokes in there, and that would be a mistake.
I think BVS's main problem was its editing. There were potholes and times were I thought to myself that's a bit of a stretch why is that happening. The notable ones being Lois Lane and the spear and how the branding lead to deaths. Also so much is going on you forget the motivation for things like Wonder Woman. That said... I think they were criticised way too harshly for a lot of things that were unfair. You had Gerry Conway and Dan Slott talk shit about Batman carrying guns despite the fact 1) Batman's been carrying a piece since his first issue 2) Batman's killed more times on films than he hasn't 3) Snyder's Batman probably has one the lowest body count of most Batmen which is probably one of the most ironic parts. They tried to create a reason for Batman's no killing rule but due to poor editing and people's memories this gets forgotten or overlooked.
Another thing. Cap Freezes at the mention of Bucky's name in BVS yet Batman snapping out of his plan to murder Superman at the mention of his mother's name as a man pleads for her life is too far fetched.
Lex's plan is let down by editing.
Another thing. Cap Freezes at the mention of Bucky's name in BVS yet Batman snapping out of his plan to murder Superman at the mention of his mother's name as a man pleads for her life is too far fetched.
Lex's plan is let down by editing.
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
Hell will freeze over before Snyder can actually make a light-hearted movie that doesn't feel awkward as fuck.
Remember when Snyder tried his hand at levity with the 'I think he's kind of hot' joke? The 'is she with you' joke?
l o l
Remember when Snyder tried his hand at levity with the 'I think he's kind of hot' joke? The 'is she with you' joke?
l o l
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
Good. I don't want a light-hearted movie.
He's going to have to implement some light-hearted moments if this 'Superman's journey to being a symbol of hope' thing is legit, lmao.
Heaven knows he sucks at it.
Woah there, let's not get crazy now.
I actually think "a couple of stand-out moments" fits The Avengers to a T. Hell, all of those stand out moments are all in one sequence, that being the Battle of NY.
What are the other memorable scenes in the rest of the movie?
The scene with Loki and Cap in Germany? That shit was embarrassing. Iron Man fixing an engine? Scarlett and Renner's anime fight? That cheap ass battle in the forest? That hilarious suit they made poor Evans wear?
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
The great thing about Avengers isn't necessarily the premise itself like BvS tried to ride on but how well it built up to the eventual teaming-up that so many people rave about.
Like, it's not enough that you have your heroes fighting a common enemy together on-screen. BvS tried and failed, because the relationships between all three characters in the Trinity were so paper-thin and weak that the union itself felt totally ingenuine.
Whedon did a fantastic job meshing six characters together with distinct and unique personalities (excluding Hawkeye, lol) with believable conflict with one another and tied it all together in the end with great pacing.
Not to mention the fact that the joke doesn't even WORK if you paid any attention to the movie (which admittedly is hard to do when you're so bored by it). Batman knows who she is and why she's there and what she's doing. Why would he say that.
Solid SOAP
Member
Omfg. The movie gets deeper and deeper.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Ha. I hadn't even realized this. This movie never ceases to impress.
Solid SOAP
Member
Batman v. Superman is my perfect disaster. Bring on the R-rated cut!
The build-up to The Avengers was certainly well done, as all of the solo movies, bar Iron Man 2, are good to great. I also agree that the character interactions are solid, for the most part (I don't care for Whedon's cheesball Cap).
But the rest of the movie? I just don't see it. Yeah, at the time it's crazy that The Avengers worked the way it did, but it hasn't aged very well at all. Removed from the novelty of a team-up, I don't think it holds up on it's own. I'd actually place the first Thor above it.
And yes, I do think BvS, for all its flaws, is a greater movie than The Avengers.
He already said that. Before release. BvS is not Terrio's fault, story was fine.
http://screenrant.com/justice-league-lighter-tone-batman-v-superman/
Doesn't matter. If it is lighter in tone don't expect people to attribute it to any sort of established narrative arc. It will be due to WB changing course.
Jeffolation
Banned
Pretty much. I found the poor benighted thing so bloody fascinating, I want more of it.
I loved the movie. I found the dark take to be really interesting, and a stark contrast to what Marvel is doing. It had some dumb moments, but overall I really enjoyed it and want to see what's next.
I've long since given up on comic movies being 100% faithful to the source material. It just never pans out. I just want something fun to watch.
I didn't even find the movie to be particularly dark, just looked like it was shot to be dark and gritty despite not really being so. The Dark Knight trilogy was dark, especially in contrast to what we got before. This movie was just kind of dumb while trying to be dark, despite being pretty goofy and dumb in a lot of places. Plus the big villain of the movie was just a dumb monster without any real setting up. Because of this, it isn't really drastically different than most Marvel movies in its core, but tries to paint itself as being darker than it actually is.
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