• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

'Batman v Superman' Fallout: Warner Bros. Shakes Up Executive Roles

Status
Not open for further replies.

BadAss2961

Member
Young people drive viewership to these movies. At this point, Black Widow is the more popular character. All rottentomatoes ratings being equal, I would be willing to bet a Black Widow movie outperforms a Wonder Woman movie at the box office.
That's all on the Marvel brand. Black Widow hasn't proven anything.

Any random person on the street would know of Wonder Woman. Black Widow, not so much. For now, there's nothing about the character that stands out. It's ScarJo with red hair in a jumpsuit.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
That's all on the Marvel brand. Black Widow hasn't proven anything.

Any random person on the street would know of Wonder Woman. Black Widow, not so much. For now, there's nothing about the character that stands out. It's ScarJo with red hair in a jumpsuit.

The marvel brand is reality. Why separate reality when talking about these possibilities? Sure, 10 years ago, WW would have been infinitely more popular than Black Widow,but that is like saying the Sega CD was more popular than the Jaguar CD. If either had a movie back then, it would have been a failure. Now, with the exposure that Black Widow has had in the real world, and the lack of exposure that WW has had in the same time frame pushes the desirability scale heavily in Black Widow's favor. Sure, WW is more well-known, but that does not make her popular by a long shot.
 

TI82

Banned
Those are your opinions, but the opinions of others who do find them great will be here to constantly make threads about them.

You are wrong about Thor 2 and F4ntastic, btw. No one will make threads about how great they are, or even how misunderstood they are, because by and large, no one feels that way about these. They are instead, only brought up as examples of failure.

http://www.amazon.com/product-revie...ewpoints=1&filterByStar=positive&pageNumber=1

http://www.amazon.com/product-revie..._dpinstantvideo_text?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

There will always be contrarians. Just like the people that like BVS and MoS these people are delusional.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!

Random Internet reviews are exactly meaningless. I am speaking of NeoGAf as a microcosm. 5 years from now, you aren't going to see threads about how great those two movies are. It won't happen.

And thanks for the insult.
 

BadAss2961

Member
The marvel brand is reality. Why separate reality when talking about these possibilities? Sure, 10 years ago, WW would have been infinitely more popular than Black Widow,but that is like saying the Sega CD was more popular than the Jaguar CD. If either had a movie back then, it would have been a failure. Now, with the exposure that Black Widow has had in the real world, and the lack of exposure that WW has had in the same time frame pushes the desirability scale heavily in Black Widow's favor. Sure, WW is more well-known, but that does not make her popular by a long shot.
There's no evidence that she's a big draw in these movies. She's just in them as the lead female of the Avengers squad. She's not a major player yet.

When I see the name Black Widow, I first think of the pool player and the competitive eater. lol
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
I think that says more about you than it does the character...

Agreed, and that isn't an insult, just your experience. I would be willing to contend that if you polled 1000 12 to 35 year olds, that almost all would signal the Comic Book character, not some other random person with that name or nickname.
 

BadAss2961

Member
I think that says more about you than it does the character...
It says that there's absolutely nothing that stands out about the character beyond the actress in the role. Not even the name.

Look up Jeanette Lee. She honestly looks more badass than Marvel's Black Widow.
 

TI82

Banned
Random Internet reviews are exactly meaningless. I am speaking of NeoGAf as a microcosm. 5 years from now, you aren't going to see threads about how great those two movies are. It won't happen.

And thanks for the insult.

I'll make the threads 5 years from now to make you wrong ;)
 

bitbydeath

Member
Batman and Superman have been too overplayed over the past 30-40 years. They should start focusing on other characters which have seen far less screen time.

I'd never even heard of Guardians of the Galaxy before the movie came about and it was fantastic.

I'm sure DC also have some hidden gems, it's about time they try find them.
 

TI82

Banned
Batman and Superman have been too overplayed over the past 30-40 years. They should start focusing on other characters which have seen far less screen time.

I'd never even heard of Guardians of the Galaxy before the movie came about and it was fantastic.

I'm sure DC also have some hidden gems, it's about time they try find them.

200.gif
 
Batman and Superman have been too overplayed over the past 30-40 years. They should start focusing on other characters which have seen far less screen time.

I'd never even heard of Guardians of the Galaxy before the movie came about and it was fantastic.

I'm sure DC also have some hidden gems, it's about time they try find them.

A lot of low-key DC stuff has been adapted without the association of a shared universe. We got a Hellblazer movie and TV series, we now have a Luficer spinoff on TV, Watchmen and V for Vendetta got movies, Preacher is coming out in some form, Sandman adaptations have been on again/off again for aeons, we even got (two?) Swamp Thing films.

You can turn to the JL tv shows for a lot of ideas about what an expanded capes and tights universe would look like, though. There's no escaping the holy trinity either way, they have to work.
 
I still think DC should have abandoned the shared universe concept and just tried and get as many of their franchises out, independent of each other. Snyder want to make a dark, dreary, TDKR inspired movie? Cool. But then, say, Lord and Miller want to make a funny, light hearted Batman '66 send up? Let's do that too. Suicide Squad could still be made and exist on it's own. People aren't stupid. I doubt there would be as much confusion as some might think. I like and appreciate the fact that Nolan's trilogy exists on it's own, as a complete story, without needing to be reliant on other movies to flesh it out or depended upon to kickstart an entire movie universe. (and that's not a knock on Marvel, I think they've done that really well for the most part).
 

TI82

Banned
I still think DC should have abandoned the shared universe concept and just tried and get as many of their franchises out, independent of each other. Snyder want to make a dark, dreary, TDKR inspired movie? Cool. But then, say, Lord and Miller want to make a funny, light hearted Batman '66 send up? Let's do that too. Suicide Squad could still be made and exist on it's own. People aren't stupid. I doubt there would be as much confusion as some might think. I like and appreciate the fact that Nolan's trilogy exists on it's own, as a complete story, without needing to be reliant on other movies to flesh it out or depended upon to kickstart an entire movie universe. (and that's not a knock on Marvel, I think they've done that really well for the most part).

All about that connected universe money. Guardians would have been a lot less successful without the MCU connection
 
All about that connected universe money. Guardians would have been a lot less successful without the MCU connection

I think it still could have done well, it was an enjoyable, likeable movie and still had that Marvel brand connection. If you take out all the "hooks" to the greater MCU I think it still does well. I think people will go see well made movies with characters they know in droves regardless. Make a really well made, good WOM Batman movie and it will make a billion dollars whether there's hooks to Green Lantern and Darkseid in it or not. Nolan's movies proved that.

Deadpool obviously has associations with the XMen, but it's not like you have to watch Deadpool to understand what's going on in the next XMen movie. It's fairly stand alone and it did well because it's a well put together, enjoyable movie.
 

TI82

Banned
I think it still could have done well, it was an enjoyable, likeable movie and still had that Marvel brand connection. If you take out all the "hooks" to the greater MCU I think it still does well. I think people will go see well made movies with characters they know in droves regardless. Make a really well made, good WOM Batman movie and it will make a billion dollars whether there's hooks to Green Lantern and Darkseid in it or not. Nolan's movies proved that.

Deadpool obviously has associations with the XMen, but it's not like you have to watch Deadpool to understand what's going on in the next XMen movie. It's fairly stand alone and it did well because it's a well put together, enjoyable movie.

Most people would have skipped Guardians if it wasn't known as a Marvel film (which is connected to the others), not really comparable to like Batman lol. Or even Deadpool who has his own cult following
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
I still think DC should have abandoned the shared universe concept and just tried and get as many of their franchises out, independent of each other. Snyder want to make a dark, dreary, TDKR inspired movie? Cool. But then, say, Lord and Miller want to make a funny, light hearted Batman '66 send up? Let's do that too. Suicide Squad could still be made and exist on it's own. People aren't stupid. I doubt there would be as much confusion as some might think. I like and appreciate the fact that Nolan's trilogy exists on it's own, as a complete story, without needing to be reliant on other movies to flesh it out or depended upon to kickstart an entire movie universe. (and that's not a knock on Marvel, I think they've done that really well for the most part).

Except with a shared universe, you get investment, and with investment, you get returning audiences and legacy revenue from people "catching up".
 

EGM1966

Member
Yeah, I know how adjusting for inflation works. The point is that even when you do that, the huge Superman and Batman films from back in the day still don't hit these numbers.

It's absolutely a new craze and I think it is (or will prove to be) unsustainable, because everyone pushes for it now and we're starting to see talk of films flopping simply because they don't hit it (as BvS proves) which will lead to a situation where studios, instead of setting more realistic targets, could conceivably burn through a fucking ton of money chasing it, and end up going out of business.
The point s older films don't just hit those numbers they exceed them.

The only difference today is popular films have a bigger market: so big hits today make more outside US. You don't think that the old films that made more money and had higher attendance wouldn't have also exceed modern films globally if they had access to same markets?

You've completely missed the point. The 1 billion is not unsustainable. Look at the trend. More and more films are breaking 1 billion or getting close to it and this will continue unless the global market changes.

People are thinking BvS flopped because it definately underperformed. The flip side is usual internet hyperbole but the underlying issue is real.

WB make most of their money from domestic business with lesser percentage from other markets (so far as I'm aware of how global distribution works).

So let's look at it.

Domestic BvS is well below $400 million. It's declared costs are around $450 million. So domestic (and don't forget WB doesn't get all of that only a percentage) doesn't even put WB close to a profit.

That leaves them their smaller share from other markets.

In short compared to similar films they've made far less money than their competitors and the film did not balance the cost put into it vs comparable titles.

Defend it or try and avoid it if you will it WB obviously expected over 1 billion and it's obvious if it had actually pleased the market the film would easily have achieved this. It's close to $900 million with horrible reviews and word of mouth and horrible attendance decline.

If even slightly better received it would have broke $1 billion and if well received would have hit 1.3 to 1.4 billion

The film contains global brands so strong it made close to 900 million while being crap. Think on that. Batman and Superman (batman particularly) remain enormous draws. It's lucky for WB they're so strong they make even a failure like BvS modestly profitable. It also makes it clear how badly they mangled delivery though because they're surely 400 to 500 million shy of what they could have achieved with a quality product.
 
There's no evidence that she's a big draw in these movies. She's just in them as the lead female of the Avengers squad. She's not a major player yet.

When I see the name Black Widow, I first think of the pool player and the competitive eater. lol

Lucy on Johansson's name alone made $450+ million WW. And it had mixed reviews.

The Marvel brand has made Johansson a legitimate B if not A-lister in Hollywood.

Sure, Wonder Woman will always be recognized more than Black Widow. She's iconic. But in the same way that Captain America is kicking the shit out of Superman in terms of box office performance, I guarantee Black Widow is currently more popular. You put out a solo Black Widow movie and have that stack up to WW? The former outperforms the latter handily. That's how much goodwill the MCU brand has with the general audience as of currently. They'll see anything the studio will put out, even Ant-Man, which sounds ridiculous and was also a new character. Black Widow is well-liked in all her movies and is an established character.
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
well yah. Being well known doesn't necessary mean popular. A black widow solo movie will easily demolish a wonder woman movie in terms of everything now

Except for hardcore DC nerds, i cant say wonder woman is popular nowadays.
 
S

Steve.1981

Unconfirmed Member
The point s older films don't just hit those numbers they exceed them..

No Superman or Batman film ever made (much less exceeded) a billion worldwide until TDK, even if you adjust for inflation. That's (one of) the point(s) I'm making. 78 Superman and 89 Batman, the hyped-up debuts, came close, but then the numbers just went on a downward slope for both character's subsequent films (again, until TDK).

So for me, if you look at their history, it was wrong of anybody to just assume throwing these characters (and Wonder Woman, who is completely unproven at the box office) together would automatically result in mountains of cash. I'm not denying WB wanted it, or defending them.

Agree to disagree on the billion+ club being a sustainable trend.
 

Slayven

Member
Batman and Superman have been too overplayed over the past 30-40 years. They should start focusing on other characters which have seen far less screen time.

I'd never even heard of Guardians of the Galaxy before the movie came about and it was fantastic.

I'm sure DC also have some hidden gems, it's about time they try find them.

How about this, a Threshold movie. It is about a band of ragtag space misfits fighting the good fight

Jediah Caul, a thief that finds himself in the unlikely role of being a hero
Jediah-Caul-Green-Lantern-New-Guardians-Annual-end-state.png


Stealth, a dangerous alien woman with many secrets
2954337-stealth+01.jpg


Captain K-Rot, wisecracking, gun toting alien that just so happens to look like an earth mammal
2957245-capt+krot.jpg
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
How about this, a Threshold movie. It is about a band of ragtag space misfits fighting the good fight

Jediah Caul, a thief that finds himself in the unlikely role of being a hero
Jediah-Caul-Green-Lantern-New-Guardians-Annual-end-state.png


Stealth, a dangerous alien woman with many secrets
2954337-stealth+01.jpg


Captain K-Rot, wisecracking, gun toting alien that just so happens to look like an earth mammal
2957245-capt+krot.jpg

Where's DC's Groot and Drax?
 

guek

Banned
Random Internet reviews are exactly meaningless. I am speaking of NeoGAf as a microcosm. 5 years from now, you aren't going to see threads about how great those two movies are. It won't happen.

And thanks for the insult.
Dude, the overwhelming majority of threads on MoS and BvS are negative.
 

Slayven

Member
Don't know any DC characters like Drax....closest I can think of is Broot from Omega Men.

Groot? Anyone from the Appellexians I suppose.



The-Omega-Men-Cover-1-674x1024.jpg


DC's GOTG

Can't really fathom seeing Tigorr on screen though...guy's a murdering psychopath.

Damn I always forget about the Omega Men
 

NumberTwo

Paper or plastic?
A good Green Lantern movie and a good Fantastic Four movie would be game changers. But they would need someone to really care and put effort into them.
Green Lantern could be their 'Star Wars' if they play their cards right (which, I have little faith that they will). The GL corner of the DCEU could be big enough to be it's own self contained universe similar to Batman. But it seems WB simply doesn't have that same level of confidence in any of their characters not named Batman.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
DC could be rolling in the money from tightly written and directed, excellently cast, and modestly budgeted films based off of these characters:

Booster Gold
Blue Beetle
Deadman
Swamp Thing
Animal Man
The Spectre

And that list is just a few of their fun and interesting characters that could translate to movies that would be very different than what Marvel is doing.

If they had even a remote passion for the characters they've been releasing comics for for nearly 80 years, they'd be bringing in writers and directors that are talented and have a passion for the genre. Those solid characters above would all have distinct films in different genres, that could still be interconnected and part of the DC cinematic universe.

And I feel they could be made for $100 million budgets or less. Again, by paring the titles with smart and savvy filmmakers, of which there are a lot of out here in Hollywood.
 

Ithil

Member
Watchmen looked nice but like someone else said it's superficial references at best. Take for example the silk specter and night owls fight in the alleyway. They fight with clearly super strength whereas in the comics they fight with middle aged athlete strength. Because that's what they are, heroes not super heroes.

So it seems Snyder really missed the point.

The thematic in-between-chapters clock counting down to the end was literally a giant clock government people were moving the hands of in the movie. To say Snyder took Watchmen overly literally is underselling it.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
The thematic in-between-chapters clock counting down to the end was literally a giant clock government people were moving the hands of in the movie. To say Snyder took Watchmen overly literally is underselling it.

You know the doomsday clock is actually a thing, right?
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Never made a bit of sense to me, how a clown, or a guy with boomerangs can even be a threat to someone like Flash, who can outrun death, light, instant transportation, has a magic force which can do anything.

OP Flash is broken, but just ridiculously fast Flash is pretty damn interesting and well-written with lots of great antagonists.
 

Rooster12

Member
Never made a bit of sense to me, how a clown, or a guy with boomerangs can even be a threat to someone like Flash, who can outrun death, light, instant transportation, has a magic force which can do anything.

That's what makes it interesting, that almost none of his villains have superspeed or any powers, and they have to come up with ingenious plans to stop Flash.

It's better than having all his villains be some superspeed freaks.

Most of Batman's rogues not only don't have powers...most of them can't even fight.
 
Batman and Superman have been too overplayed over the past 30-40 years. They should start focusing on other characters which have seen far less screen time.

I'd never even heard of Guardians of the Galaxy before the movie came about and it was fantastic.

I'm sure DC also have some hidden gems, it's about time they try find them.

It's easy to use the GotG example to say "why don't X use their hidden gem characters." For one, not all hidden gems are going to be received the same way that GotG was. Additionally, it says a lot more about how well-written and fun GotG was than about the state of hidden gem characters.
 
Sorry Slay, loved Waid's run on Flash, but the truth is that Flash's rogues are pretty lame.

The Flash's rogues gallery is the second best in comics after Batman's. Yes, they all look super lame on paper but they all have been written amazingly well over the years. The Flash is the most overpowered being in the DCU but he respects the Rogues because they have a code of conduct and generally do not kill, he doesn't want to hurt them and actively tries to reform them and that makes for a very interesting dynamic. And the Reverse Flash and Zoom can be scary as fuck.
 

ryan299

Member
More fallout. Charles Roven is being removed as producer from certain DC movies. THR

Charles Roven, the veteran producer who has worked on every DC Comics movie at Warner Bros. since 2005’s Batman Begins, is no longer be producing certain DC movies, sources tell The Hollywood Reporter.

Talks are underway to have Roven — who was a producer on Zack Snyder's Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, as well as the recently completed Suicide Squad and next year's Wonder Woman — segue to a different role going forward, likely that of an executive producer who is not involved in day-to-day production. However, he potentially could continue to be a producer on some sequels to the movies he's currently producing.
 

ryan299

Member
Some more.
...But he was part of the unofficial brain trust with Snyder on the DC movies, an approach Warners seems to be trying to rethink in the wake of BvS's less than stellar performance.
 

a916

Member
Also guess kind of important

Sounds like he's there, but there's people who can over see him. Like Affleck and Berg. Hard to bring in Berg when he probably wasn't involved in this project to begin with (early rumors had it that WB was on set from the get go on JL to avoid a BvS)

This movie is going to suffer from this transitional point in the DC braintrust. Hope they can make a good movie, but this isn't really conducive to that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom