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Bayonetta 2 off to a slow start in Japan [Update: Week 2 sales]

Consoles are dead in Japan. Sad truth :(

The days of console games selling well are long gone in Japan.

Yup. This, more than anything, is why the game bombed this hard. It's why the 360 version of Bayo 1 sold better than Bayo 2. The console gaming market has been sharply declining in Japan over the last few years. Mainly thanks to mobile games.
 
Based on what exactly? You mean because Bayo 2 bombed, the audience is now aware of character action games, so when a third party makes one, it's going to sell now, but it wouldn't have before Bayo 2? Not only is that completely unproven, it's also baseless and illogical.

Yes, I'm saying it's not doing that, because there's no evidence it's having that affect at all. Firstly, these games are bombing, so the audience doesn't exist there, and it isn't being fostered. Secondly, it's not going to impact what third parties are doing anyway.

The genre is pretty much dead anyway, but if/when DMC6 and NG4 come out, they're not going to be on the Wii U anyway, and they wouldn't be if Bayo 2 sold a million. Third parties have already clocked out on franchises far bigger that would easily sell better than those games.

No, there's no evidence for the audience growing at all. Bayo 2 outselling W101 isn't evidence. Bayonetta is frequently cited as the best character action game ever, it has a reputation, W101 came from nowhere.

So many strawmen I don't even know where to begin to reply to you. Nice tag?

Yes, that bullshit you spouted was baseless and illogical and that's why I never fucking said anything remotely close to that?

I'm not sure what you would call growing the audience for third party games if it isn't funding those franchises and those types of games on the system. Make no mistake, that that is what they are doing with games like W101, Bayonetta 2, Devil's Third, Fatal Frame, Xenoblade, etc.

"Growing" is the key word in "growing" an audience. There is no assumption of immediate success, only growth. And when one character action game bombs and they go ahead and continue with another which bombs slightly less, yes, that can be considered growth.

The next Ninja Gaiden doesn't have to release on Wii U for the audience for games like Ninja Gaiden to continue to grow on Wii U. All that has to happen is for other games in that genre to continue to release on the system and continue to increase in sales.

Nintendo has put money towards one game in the genre every year since the system launched if you count the money they put toward Razor's Edge. What do you call that if not fostering an audience?
 
...huh? Comparing a game with pacific rim makes you not want to buy it?
Firstly, it's only his opinion that the two are similar. They are vastly different apart from the fact that they both have niche appeal. Secondly, you're letting this one throwaway connect your opinion that deviates from the primary reactions to the movie (most people who I've seen it enjoyed it).
Calm down, brah. I associate Pacific Rim with all style and no substance. So yeah, comparing anything with Pacific Rim makes me not want to buy it. It's fine if people like it. Most people like black licorice too. When someone tells me a candy or drink tastes like black licorice, I'm well within my rights to not want to put it in my mouth.

YMMV, but both are like entertainment first, seriousness is last.

EDIT: Also giant stuff attacking more stuff. :P
I can get behind all of that in video games and am pretty well assured Platinum brings the substance. Was mostly just surprised at how strong of a reaction I had, however valid it was.
 
"Growing" is the key word in "growing" an audience. There is no assumption of immediate success, only growth. And when one character action game bombs and they go ahead and continue with another which bombs slightly less, yes, that can be considered growth.
False. If that were true, it would mean DKC shows significant negative-growth from 2D platformer fans given NSMB. You can't take isolated games within genres, remove everything other than their genre and use that as meaningful data, different games have different appeals, even if they're in the same genre.

The next Ninja Gaiden doesn't have to release on Wii U for the audience for games like Ninja Gaiden to continue to grow on Wii U. All that has to happen is for other games in that genre to continue to release on the system and continue to increase in sales.

Right, and there's no reason to think that will happen, is there? From Nintendo sure, but you claimed this was for third parties, so that's irrelevant.
Nintendo has put money towards one game in the genre every year since the system launched if you count the money they put toward Razor's Edge. What do you call that if not fostering an audience?
I'd call it attempting to make the platform attractive to an existing audience. Bayonetta 2 was to attract Bayonetta fans, not to build on NG3 and W101 fans.
 
This is why I pre-ordered the First Print EU edition, heheheh...

Gonna cash that eBay money down the road, oh yes, baby. Can't wait for this game to be considered a cult classic (if it's as good as I'm assuming it will be).
 
I'd call it attempting to make the platform attractive to an existing audience. Bayonetta 2 was to attract Bayonetta fans, not to build on NG3 and W101 fans.

Wouldn't they have just made another Metroid, another Starfox, another ExciteVehicle, another Fire Emblem or another [insert requested franchise reboot] though, if their goal was doubling down on "nintendo fans"?

What's the long term here?

Developer partnerships for this generation and all ongoing generations.
 
Even when the "only 2 days!" crap gets disproved time and time again.... they will be back.

I told everyone that "Bu bu 4 days compared to 2 days" comparisons are always immaterial because of the front-loaded nature of the Japanese retail industry. Now we have data that shows it.
 
Wouldn't they have just made another Metroid, another Starfox, another ExciteVehicle, another Fire Emblem or another [insert requested franchise reboot] though, if their goal was doubling down on "nintendo fans"?
My point was the exact opposite of that.

I didn't say Nintendo fans, I said Bayonetta fans, and I don't consider that synonyms, in fact, I consider it antithetical.
 
My point was the exact opposite of that.

I didn't say Nintendo fans, I said Bayonetta fans, and I don't consider that synonyms, in fact, I consider it antithetical.

Ah, okay I thought you were disagreeing with the poster who was suggesting they are attempting to foster a userbase outside of that 'comfort zone'.
 
yikes.. that drop.

How did the Bayo 360 did on its 2nd week ?

Dunno, there's no number in the thread. PS3 did 29k and was 8th on the chart, 360 is at 15th place.

First week sales (Famitsu):

Bayonetta (PS3) - 138,430 copies

Bayonetta (360) - 66,211 copies

Bayonetta 1 + 2 (Wii U) - 33,114 copies

...

Bayonetta (PS3 + 360) - 204,641 copies





Second week sales (Famitsu):

Bayonetta (PS3) - 29,120 copies (-78.96%)

Bayonetta (360) - 12,232 copies (-81.53%)

Bayonetta 1 + 2 (Wii U) - 9,284 copies (-71.96%)

...

Bayonetta (PS3 + 360) - 41,352 copies (-79.70%)





First week + Second week sales (Famitsu):

Bayonetta (PS3) - 167,550 copies

Bayonetta (360) - 78,443 copies

Bayonetta 1 + 2 (Wii U) - 42,398 copies

...

Bayonetta (PS3 + 360) - 245,993 copies
 
False. If that were true, it would mean DKC shows significant negative-growth from 2D platformer fans given NSMB. You can't take isolated games within genres, remove everything other than their genre and use that as meaningful data, different games have different appeals, even if they're in the same genre.
That's fair. Platinum developed character action games is about the closest we can come to making any comparison. We could say the audience for Platinum games is improving, perhaps? I just don't think it's insignificant that there is growth from W101 and B2, even if both are bombs.

Right, and there's no reason to think that will happen, is there? From Nintendo sure, but you claimed this was for third parties, so that's irrelevant.
As many times as EA has publicly snubbed Nintendo, they still bring over Just Dance because the audience is there. Ubisoft still brings over Rayman.

Now this has nothing to do with the next Ninja Gaiden or the next Devil May Cry—the numbers are in and the audience for those games is clearly not gigantic on the Wii U—but if Nintendo can successfully grow an audience for those types of games then why wouldn't third parties eventually want to sell to them? It's creating an audience for the types of games third parties are making. How else do you do that?

I'd call it attempting to make the platform attractive to an existing audience. Bayonetta 2 was to attract Bayonetta fans, not to build on NG3 and W101 fans.
I guess I don't understand the difference. Bringing Ninja Gaiden fans by throwing money at Razor's Edge, bringing Bayonetta fans by funding Bayonetta 2, bringing Platinum fans and creating new ones by funding W101... all of these things serve to increase the number of character actions fans who own a Wii U. That seems to me the definition of growing an audience on your platform.
 
Ah, okay I thought you were disagreeing with the poster who was suggesting they are attempting to foster a userbase outside of that 'comfort zone'.
I do, I don't think publishing NG3, W101 and Bayonetta 2 was to foster character action fans on Nintendo platforms. I think it was to attract those fans from the preexisting fans that typically favor those other two platform holders.

Bayonetta 2 specifically seemed like a direct grab at the dedicated core. I actually thought it was a fantastic move at the time. I think if the Wii U had been positioned as the natural companion platform to either a PS4 or an XBO, it would have been very effective too.
 
I don't even know what you're talking about.

That post just means that just because MS didn't want Bayo 2, doesn't mean they don't want Bayo 3. Publishers needs change based on their line up, and MS had a high profile character action game in development when Bayo 2 would have been pitched, making it a less likely title to pick up, but now they've cancelled Ryse 2, meaning they might be more interested in something along those lines.

But yes, Bayo 2 would have sold better on XBO, not in Japan though, obviously.

You are constantly trying to reason why publishing anywhere else than on the Wii U would have been better for Platinum and the better solution would have been to just not make the game if the only option was the Wii U for PG.

It wouldn't and I told you why, but you just start with this nonsense again and I know "Platinum being happy" is not the reason why you want Bayonetta 2 on other platforms. You are just constantly talking around the bush .

In general, a message to, not only you, but to anyone else:
Would it have really mattered if other publisheres would have picked it up? Especially for Platinum, which we are arguing and caring about at the moment? No, it wouldn't have mattered.

Bayonetta 2 would have bombed anywhere. On some platformers less than on others, but it would have bombed. Bayonetta 3 will or would have logically never exist or existed, eitherway. The X360/PS3 has a userbase of around 160 million and the original Bayonetta shipped 1,3 million copies, overshipped to the point of the game being sold at bargain prices for months and still, rarely, I still see the game being sold here in european shops for ten bucks. It went below SEGA's expectations and cancelled Bayonetta 2 just when production started. Nintendo needed some games and said, we'll fund it, while multiple other publishers had no interest in a niche game that generally flopped, while relatively selling well for PG standards.

If Bayonetta 2 would have been ideally released multiplatform? It would have probably shipped a million copies as well, it would have at the least shipped more than double what it will sell on the Wii U. People would have generally been more happy because the platform change would've never happend, but that's basically it.

But the question is, would it have really mattered for Platinum Games? Would it have mattered for the game itself? Would there really be a difference? No, it wouldn't,except graphical upgrades if it even would have been released on this gen's hardware. They still would have gotten the same paycheck, the game still wouldn't have sold enough to get paycheck bonuses and the game still wouldn't have sold enough for a sequel. Actually, maybe another publisher wouldn't have given enough time to PG to completely finish their game, leading to a rushed product.

But this is reality and here we have Nintendo, funding a game cancelled by Sega, as well as rejected by other publishers and then saying "Platinum shouldn't have let Nintendo fund Bayonetta 2, it wasn't the best solution for them. They should have waited for someone else to pick it up in the future, but not Nintendo." No. It isn't. It probably isn't the best solution for you, because you don't care about Nintendo or don't want to buy the Wii U. But not for Platinum. Because it really doesn't matter for them.

Instead, at this very moment they are having 2 new parterns with Activison and Microsoft and there seems to be no damage done to them. The damage is surely not that Bayonetta 2 exists thanks to Nintendo.

So what these threads basically boil down to is people trying to reason why it was a bad decision from Platinum, without trying to directly port-beg. Otherwise, I don't believe, or rather, can't believe that people just don't get it.
 
I wonder if Bayonetta in Smash Bros would've done much to promote Bayo2. Or if being on Wii U was the constraining factor more than interest level.
 
First week sales (Famitsu):

Bayonetta (PS3) - 138,430 copies

Bayonetta (360) - 66,211 copies

Bayonetta 1 + 2 (Wii U) - 33,114 copies

...

Bayonetta (PS3 + 360) - 204,641 copies





Second week sales (Famitsu):

Bayonetta (PS3) - 29,120 copies (-78.96%)

Bayonetta (360) - 12,232 copies (-81.53%)

Bayonetta 1 + 2 (Wii U) - 9,284 copies (-71.96%)

...

Bayonetta (PS3 + 360) - 41,352 copies (-79.70%)





First week + Second week Sales (Famitsu):

Bayonetta (PS3) - 167,550 copies

Bayonetta (360) - 78,443 copies

Bayonetta 1 + 2 (Wii U) - 42,398 copies

...

Bayonetta (PS3 + 360) - 245,993 copies


This is disgraceful and yet very much predicted.

Poor, poor business decisions here.

Makes me sad.
 
At least it's selling better then the PS4 and XB1 versions in Japan. ;)

AvvYpat.jpg
<-- dead, just like the PS4 + Bone in Japan
 
I really don't know how this thread managed to reach 42 pages??!!!
Bayonetta was a commercial failure, a great but really niche title appreciated just by hardcore action games fans. The sequel has been released to a struggling Nintendo console (and we know that third party games aren't the biggest sellers even on really successful Nintendo platforms). What did you expect? That just because it was published by Nintendo it would sell millions and turn the Wii U's fortunes around? Emmm...
 
If I'm reading those numbers right (and I still keep reading them over and over in disbelief) *everyone* involved, but especially Platinum.

Platinum is unaffected by the sales, the game was basically paid by Nintendo the moment they announced it on Wii U.

All that Platinum can care about now is their fans impressions and love for the game.

It's more like Nintendo took the risk to garnish the Wii U 'hardcore games' library, now that it's done though all there is to do is to enjoy the existence of the game itself!
 
I really don't know how this thread managed to reach 42 pages??!!!
Bayonetta was a commercial failure, a great but really niche title appreciated just by hardcore action games fans. The sequel has been released to a struggling Nintendo console (and we know that third party games aren't the biggest sellers even on really successful Nintendo platforms). What did you expect? That just because it was published by Nintendo it would sell millions and turn the Wii U's fortunes around? Emmm...

Define "commercial failure."


Bayonetta had like ~400K USA sales, 341,437 Japanese sales, etc.

We also know that Platinum Games always operates on a super-lean budget and a small staff.

So how is 1 million sales from a studio like that a "commercial failure"?
 
Yeah it would've sold much better if it had not existed. Poor Platinum

I'm Platinum and I'm seeing the audience that bought the first Bayonetta. I'm seeing that many consider it to be the best game of its genre. Seeing all of this, I put it on...the WiiU? Sequel to a console that had no where near the general demographic of those who bought the first Bayonetta? That's called poor decision making.

I'm not hating. I'm going to buy a WiiU AND this game because I'm going to support. I wish my support was enough. I just believe Platinum deserves better and a lot of people should be playing their games. I don't like these numbers and I do find them sad and irritating.

@seik --- So Platinum is so dedicated to just making works of art that they don't care at all about sales?

Ok. Fine.

Well *I* care about their sales and *I* want lots of people playing their games.
 
I'm Platinum and I'm seeing the audience that bought the first Bayonetta. I'm seeing that many consider it to be the best game of its genre. Seeing all of this, I put it on...the WiiU? Sequel to a console that had no where near the general demographic of those who bought the first Bayonetta? That's called poor decision making.

You're right, they obviously should've not made the game. Sony and Microsoft didn't want it, along with many other publishers, so it's clearly Inaba's mistake to have the game made with Nintendo's money. It's poisonous money.
 
IMHO Bayo is not the franchise that have mass appeal, or to put it bluntly, it does not have any appeal at all, at least in Japanese market (not saying it's bad game).
It did got some attention by eccentric character design when prequel was revealed, and of course gameplay turned out to be decent enough too. However that franchise isn't the type that you can expect to keep getting same level of attention it got for the first time.

Personally I think Kamiya brought it to himself. He should have known that the whole franchise was one-time only thing. Actually other publishers already saw it too, and thus didn't give him money to make sequel.

Define "commercial failure."


Bayonetta had like ~400K USA sales, 341,437 Japanese sales, etc.

We also know that Platinum Games always operates on a super-lean budget and a small staff.

So how is 1 million sales from a studio like that a "commercial failure"?

We can only guess but according to Kamiya while he was working on the sequel SEGA told him they can't fund it any more.
 
I'm Platinum and I'm seeing the audience that bought the first Bayonetta. I'm seeing that many consider it to be the best game of its genre. Seeing all of this, I put it on...the WiiU? Sequel to a console that had no where near the general demographic of those who bought the first Bayonetta? That's called poor decision making.

I'm pretty sure the team at P* is just glad to have been given the chance to build a sequel for one of their first child while they fought so hard to bring it back without success until Nintendo stepped in.

Like I said, the sales doesn't matter to them, this I'm sure, it's the finished product and the people that will appreciate it that they will care about. :)

EDIT
@seik --- So Platinum is so dedicated to just making works of art that they don't care at all about sales?

Ok. Fine.

Well *I* care about their sales and *I* want lots of people playing their games.

I'm pretty sure that's the case.
 
You're right, they obviously should've not made the game. Sony and Microsoft didn't want it, along with many other publishers, so it's clearly Inaba's mistake to have the game made with Nintendo's money. It's poisonous money.

Oh, stop. I'm not attacking anybody so stop defending. I want people to buy and support Platinum CRUCIFY ME BRO.

lol
 
We can only guess but according to Kamiya while he was working on the sequel SEGA told him they can't fund it any more.

Sega got cold feet because they didn't feel there was enough growth potential in the IP.

But they initially greenlit the project...so we know they were on the fence.

Sega wouldn't have been on the fence if the game was a "commercial failure."
 
Nah, Japan's handheld/mobile preference is certainly a large contributing factor in most console games' sales nowadays, including this one.

I doubt this game would have done much (if any) better on PS4.

MGR did 472k. Its clear that WiiU is the biggest reason for Bayo2's failure.

Yes because the first one was a runaway success on the PS3 which had a far bigger install base.

It sold magnitudes better on the PS3 and even the 360 sku outsold the bayo 2 despite having a smaller install base by 700k.

Install base is the be all end all. Whether the audience that like those types of games is important. Again this has been said numerous times in this thread with data. Evidently many Bayonetta fans just ignored the sequel due to it being on the WiiU.
 
You are constantly trying to reason why publishing anywhere else than on the Wii U would have been better for Platinum and the better solution would have been to just not make the game if the only option was the Wii U for PG.
Wrong. Yes, pretty much any other publisher would have been better, as Nintendo is the only one that forced the game to a failed platform, leaving no real chance of success, but that doesn't mean Sony or MS would be 'good', they probably wouldn't have been. The post you originally quoted was not about Bayo 2 being elsewhere, but about using the time they did to make it, to make a game that had a chance of being a hit.
It wouldn't and I told you why, but you just start with this nonsense again and I know "Platinum being happy" is not the reason why you want Bayonetta 2 on other platforms. You are just constantly talking around the bush .
I didn't say Platinum being happy once. I would prefer the game on any of the higher performance platforms, that goes for every single game, and I would never deny that. However, I have a Wii U, I have Bayo 2 preordered, and I'm very excited about it.
In general, a message to, not only you, but to anyone else:
Would it have really mattered if other publisheres would have picked it up? Especially for Platinum, which we are arguing and caring about at the moment? No, it wouldn't have mattered.
I disagree. If it were on platforms that would have allowed for better sales, it would have reflected much better on Platinum, which would make them viable for other publishers.
Bayonetta 2 would have bombed anywhere. On some platformers less than on others, but it would have bombed. Bayonetta 3 will or would have logically never exist or existed, eitherway. The X360/PS3 has a userbase of around 160 million and the original Bayonetta shipped 1,3 million copies, overshipped to the point of the game being sold at bargain prices for months and still, rarely, I still see the game being sold here in european shops for ten bucks. It went below SEGA's expectations and cancelled Bayonetta 2 just when production started. Nintendo needed some games and said, we'll fund it, while multiple other publishers had no interest in a niche game that generally flopped, while relatively selling well for PG standards.
Yes, which is why I said using the time to make something other than Bayo 2 could have been better.
If Bayonetta 2 would have been ideally released multiplatform? It would have probably shipped a million copies as well, it would have at the least shipped more than double what it will sell on the Wii U. People would have generally been more happy because the platform change would've never happend, but that's basically it.
Being multiplatform might have helped PR in terms of not pissing off Platinum fans, but I don't really believe the conviction of those opinions. I think almost anyone who has the conviction to refuse to buy games they want because of an action of the developer, wouldn't be the kind of person who would refuse on the grounds of a game being exclusive to the only interested publisher.
But the question is, would it have really mattered for Platinum Games? Would it have mattered for the game itself? Would there really be a difference? No, it wouldn't,except graphical upgrades if it even would have been released on this gen's hardware. They still would have gotten the same paycheck, the game still wouldn't have sold enough to get paycheck bonuses and the game still wouldn't have sold enough for a sequel. Actually, maybe another publisher wouldn't have given enough time to PG to completely finish their game, leading to a rushed product.
All speculative, there's really nothing to debate.
But this is reality and here we have Nintendo, funding a game cancelled by Sega, as well as rejected by other publishers and then saying "Platinum shouldn't have let Nintendo fund Bayonetta 2, it wasn't the best solution for them. They should have waited for someone else to pick it up in the future, but not Nintendo." No. It isn't. It probably isn't the best solution for you, because you don't care about Nintendo or don't want to buy the Wii U. But not for Platinum. Because it really doesn't matter for them.
I didn't say that quote, so I don't know if you're referring to someone else. I do own a Wii U, and no, I don't care about Nintendo, or Sony, or Microsoft, or any of the publishers, or Platinum actually.
Instead, at this very moment they are having 2 new parterns with Activison and Microsoft and there seems to be no damage done to them. The damage is surely not that Bayonetta 2 exists thanks to Nintendo.
The anime game is a cheap license game, I don't think it says much, certainly not much positive anyway. Scalebound would have been penned before W101 I imagine. It's true that a publisher would consider the failure of the Wii U in relation to the failure of those games though.
So what these threads basically boil down to is people trying to reason why it was a bad decision from Platinum, without trying to directly port-beg. Otherwise, I don't believe, or rather, can't believe that people just don't get it.
If I wanted to port-beg, I'd do it. Why would I hide preferring the game on a better console? It would be objectively superior, however, I'm happy to buy it on Wii U. And again, my point wasn't that it should be elsewhere, just that this being 'the best solution' isn't necessarily true, and that no Bayo 2 could have been better for Platinum than this situation.
 
They didn't do so the first time around on a much, much larger audience on your preferred platforms.

It was a brand new intellectual property. I'd say it made a serious splash considering the lack of advertising and yet gaining much respect via word of mouth. 99% of new IPs wish they'd have the same impact as Bayonetta.

But hey bro, sales don't matter--it's all good. Maybe Bayonetta 3 will be on the X1 and only sold in Japan.
 
MGR did 472k. Its clear that WiiU is the biggest reason for Bayo2's failure.

.


It had the words "Metal Gear" in its title, and was on a much older system with triple the user base.

Unfair comparison imo.

The Bayo 1 360 vs Bayo 2 Wii U comparison is probably a better comparison, at least in terms of userbase.
 
Sega got cold feet because they didn't feel there was enough growth potential in the IP.

But they initially greenlit the project...so we know they were on the fence.

Sega wouldn't have been on the fence if the game was a "commercial failure."

Since Platinum couldn't do shit for PS3 version Sega had to do that by themselves, and ultimately ask Sony engineer to help. I can't imagine how much extra cost they had to spend for it. It is ironic that PS3 version did far better in Japanese market.
I won't be surprised if Sega is quite skeptical of Platinum ability for commitment. How much money Sega actually spent after it is "greenlit" (so says Kamiya, not SEGA) is really unknown.
 
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