Segata Sanshiro
Member
It had a good run.taylor910 said:
Don't worry, like every other meme on the planet, GAF will be still be running it into the ground years after it's funny or relevant.
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Because We Can't Have Nice Things: Scribblenauts Racism! Breaking!
- Thread starter Ca1amity
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poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
So all people who make games should study American history with a focus on racial issues, and then make sure that the entire game has been scrubbed of any unintentional references that could be construed as racist?EternalGamer said:
Do you think that Nintendos use of the word spastic in one of their games to describe a train is a big deal?
Epic Tier 3 Engineer said:
And that's how things should be handled, quite frankly. I think it's funny that people are getting up in arms about this when it's fairly clear 5th Cell had no derogatory motive in using the term. I've always connected racism to motive on some level; there has to be some intent to cause harm or to belittle involved. I don't appreciate hearing people use the 'N' word on Live or in movies or anywhere else, but I understand that not everyone using it nowadays is doing so out of racism. [Not that I think people should continue using the term, as I'm still sensitive to it, but its use now is very relative.]
fatty
Member
EternalGamer said:
I agree completely, there is no shame in calling people out for their ignorance. That's why I made my statement. To try and simply say someone is ignorant to the history of racism (without knowing what background they came from) just because they don't see a problem with the intent the developer had when using the word is just asinine.
Segata Sanshiro said:
But it is. It's growing pains. Every medium goes through this.
Like anything else, your sensitivity may vary. There are groups who fight the names to this day. Many cases with the name "Redskin" has been changed. On the flipside, there are a large percentige of Indians who have moved on and embrace the name now. I worked four years at an Indian Resort Casino and the entire reservation were Redskins fans (you would want to call out on Sundays of Redskins/Cowboys...violence would ensue). It was weird, but...oh well.
It's 2009 and black folk still say "Sup, my nigga!" to each other (which blows my mind when I got visit my family) so...all bets are off to me. Some people turn negatives into a positive? They're "taking it back"? I dunno.
Tempy said:
Most stereotypes do come from an overgeneralization of observations of people. From what I've seen when I worked at UPS loading trucks, the black guys I worked with were more likely to get fruit flavored soda (orange was popular as well) than cola during break. So what? What does that say about them? Its like Dave Chappelle said, its not a reason to hate anyone, its just what you grow up with. I like fruit flavored soda too. I'm sure there plenty of black people who hate grape or orange drinks.
Epic Tier 3 Engineer
Banned
Black people enjoy it en masse?Tempy said:
Hell if I know.
The Joystiq article seemed right on the money of "ha, this is an oopsy moment, but no harm meant, so whatever," but then of course Kotaku has to come in after the story's already dead acting like a bunch of jackasses, using this bit of an "oops" moment to expunge how they're so AWESOME at covering hot button issues!
Conrad Link
Member
Any time I read a thread with Kotaku in it I think of the Slowtaku Slowpokes and smile, haha they're so shocked at everything! :lol
Anyway, I honestly have no idea what that term means, never heard it before, I don't think it has any meaning here in New Zealand.
*shrug*
Anyway, I honestly have no idea what that term means, never heard it before, I don't think it has any meaning here in New Zealand.
*shrug*
Ok, this thread got the fuck derailed out of it from where I had originally wanted to go. We kind of got back there when Stephen Totilo posted, but not for long. Honestly, I should have seen this coming - which isnt to discount the sliver of legitimate debate on the race topic in here - I'm just sayin'
Now, definition of "Racism"
Words do not have any of these capabilities. No word in the history of speech has the capacity to *be* racist. I am not getting into semantic douchbaggery here, my point is that we say "this or that is racist" as a shorthand but people tend to forget that it is individuals who make meaning, and that meaning is constantly being remade in societies globally.
Certain words are going to take a long time to change the associated meaning ('nigger' for example) others are changing faster 'sambo'. Please just be mindful that its you/me/ the particular society you live in, dictating your understanding of a word NOT the word.
Now, that having been said, "Sambo" is still a racially charged word in some areas of the United States, and is still known to be so for many of an older generation in the Western world in general. To deny this is ignorant.
The issue about using this word should never have been "its not racist whats the problem" or "it used to be racist, but not now, so whats the problem". I may have contributed to this somewhat by not explaining myself properly.
Here we have a word with a charged meaning for some, and those people who are offended by its use have every right to be offended. We as a functioning society have a duty to recognize their issue with the term even if we dont accept it. Covering it up or downplaying it does everyone a disservice and only serves to worsen the legitimate issues that run under this debate.
That having been said, we operate as pluralistic democracies (in theory) - probably more so in our shaping of culture than anything else (sadly) - and as the majority defines meaning in each generation, their decisions dictate what is kept, changed and thrown away. The minority voice serves then to remind the whole of possible alternatives (good and bad) to allow for remembrance, provide context, avoid repeating mistakes and set the cycle for the next change.
The word has a racially charged meaning, one of several. In some parts of the world this racial definition is the primary definition, but this is not universally true. The developers apparently went with the definition from a technical manual etc. and used a definition common (but not universal) in other parts of the world.
There is absolutely nothing racist about their actions or the word itself.
Should someone have checked? Yes, but mistakes happen. Should the word have been removed? I would argue no. Words have no power unless we give it to them. I would have gone in and made a distinct Sambo sprite personally. I'd have done it just so when some dickhead went trolling for drama I could throw it in his face, but thats just me. Should the fact that the term has racial baggage attached to it be undermined or glossed over? Absolutely fucking not. However, it needs to be contextualized properly and not made the be-all end-all.
Does the word cause racist imagery to appear in the game? Highly debatable. The image that appears is of the "Watermelon" sprite because they were constrained for resources and making a "Sambo" sprite was not feasible. For the appearance of the Watermelon to create racist imagery for the player, he/she has to know a) the history/use of Sambo as a racist term b) the history/use of Watermellon as associated with black racist imagery [The sambo trope in and of itself does NOT include watermelon, that is a "feature" added by advertising/media companies in the 20th century]. Only with both of these pieces of information can the player make his/her own choice about intent.
When the player finds out that sambo also means this fig-thing, even if they were reasonably upset at the outset, their reaction, I hope, would shift to understanding of the true intent.
The problem here isnt the word, it never has been, its the sensationalization of a term in a game caused by the oversight of likely one young tester on this game. The issue is the need to racialize everything in the name of controversy and a story - which undermines legitimate attempts to have a meaningful discussion about race in games.
Finally, Id like to think that kids out there are putting in Sambo by some accident, seeing this watermellon thing, and learning a new word. Then I'd like to imagine they go to school one day and learn about the history of this word in America and say "Wow, thats really fucked up! I wont forget what I've learned but, wow what an ignorant fucking time we lived in using a word for figs to hurt blacks!" or some such thing. Maybe im an optimist though.
Now, definition of "Racism"
Words do not have any of these capabilities. No word in the history of speech has the capacity to *be* racist. I am not getting into semantic douchbaggery here, my point is that we say "this or that is racist" as a shorthand but people tend to forget that it is individuals who make meaning, and that meaning is constantly being remade in societies globally.
Certain words are going to take a long time to change the associated meaning ('nigger' for example) others are changing faster 'sambo'. Please just be mindful that its you/me/ the particular society you live in, dictating your understanding of a word NOT the word.
Now, that having been said, "Sambo" is still a racially charged word in some areas of the United States, and is still known to be so for many of an older generation in the Western world in general. To deny this is ignorant.
The issue about using this word should never have been "its not racist whats the problem" or "it used to be racist, but not now, so whats the problem". I may have contributed to this somewhat by not explaining myself properly.
Here we have a word with a charged meaning for some, and those people who are offended by its use have every right to be offended. We as a functioning society have a duty to recognize their issue with the term even if we dont accept it. Covering it up or downplaying it does everyone a disservice and only serves to worsen the legitimate issues that run under this debate.
That having been said, we operate as pluralistic democracies (in theory) - probably more so in our shaping of culture than anything else (sadly) - and as the majority defines meaning in each generation, their decisions dictate what is kept, changed and thrown away. The minority voice serves then to remind the whole of possible alternatives (good and bad) to allow for remembrance, provide context, avoid repeating mistakes and set the cycle for the next change.
The word has a racially charged meaning, one of several. In some parts of the world this racial definition is the primary definition, but this is not universally true. The developers apparently went with the definition from a technical manual etc. and used a definition common (but not universal) in other parts of the world.
There is absolutely nothing racist about their actions or the word itself.
Should someone have checked? Yes, but mistakes happen. Should the word have been removed? I would argue no. Words have no power unless we give it to them. I would have gone in and made a distinct Sambo sprite personally. I'd have done it just so when some dickhead went trolling for drama I could throw it in his face, but thats just me. Should the fact that the term has racial baggage attached to it be undermined or glossed over? Absolutely fucking not. However, it needs to be contextualized properly and not made the be-all end-all.
Does the word cause racist imagery to appear in the game? Highly debatable. The image that appears is of the "Watermelon" sprite because they were constrained for resources and making a "Sambo" sprite was not feasible. For the appearance of the Watermelon to create racist imagery for the player, he/she has to know a) the history/use of Sambo as a racist term b) the history/use of Watermellon as associated with black racist imagery [The sambo trope in and of itself does NOT include watermelon, that is a "feature" added by advertising/media companies in the 20th century]. Only with both of these pieces of information can the player make his/her own choice about intent.
When the player finds out that sambo also means this fig-thing, even if they were reasonably upset at the outset, their reaction, I hope, would shift to understanding of the true intent.
The problem here isnt the word, it never has been, its the sensationalization of a term in a game caused by the oversight of likely one young tester on this game. The issue is the need to racialize everything in the name of controversy and a story - which undermines legitimate attempts to have a meaningful discussion about race in games.
Finally, Id like to think that kids out there are putting in Sambo by some accident, seeing this watermellon thing, and learning a new word. Then I'd like to imagine they go to school one day and learn about the history of this word in America and say "Wow, thats really fucked up! I wont forget what I've learned but, wow what an ignorant fucking time we lived in using a word for figs to hurt blacks!" or some such thing. Maybe im an optimist though.
TheFightingFish
Member
The thing that suprises me was that this wasn't caught by any type of policheck software done by 5th Cell. I know that for any locale we release our software in it gets a pretty through scrub down for any racial / sexual terms before release. Sambo is hardly an unknown term and I'm suprised it didn't get flagged and removed at some point in the process. I'm sure that 5th Cell would have much rather just omitted the word as opposed to being in the current media focus.
soul creator
Member
Vinci said:
this is more of a general point, and not necessarily applicable to the Scribblenauts situation, but I think this is a very limited view of "racism" to have.
Now, that doesn't mean that "unintentional" or "subconscious" racism is worthy of angry protest, boycotts, and marches or whatever, but it is something that should be open to discussion, and not always rejected out of hand. You don't have to be a consciously hateful person to buy into racial and/or privileged thinking.
OokieSpookie
Banned
I remember back when I was a child, Little Black Sambo was one of my favorite stories...hell there was even a franchise of Dennys type diners called Sambos themed loosely from the story.
I can see how the charactures could be seen to have racist overtones, I also think though that the whole racial card is way too easily thrown in this day and age...
I can see how the charactures could be seen to have racist overtones, I also think though that the whole racial card is way too easily thrown in this day and age...
JoshuaJSlone
Member
But what should've been done about it if 5TH Cell had known? Leave the fruit out? Make it so when you enter SAMBO it recommends "Did you mean: Sambo (non-racist fruit)?"skinnyrattler said:
I sure didn't. I'd say this is different even from the RE5 or LocoRoco issues because without a news story about it, the vast majority of players would never think to put it in and see what happens. Heck, without that hacked list of words, there are probably some nobody would ever use.Woodsy said:
LiveFromKyoto
Member
RJT said:
It has been brought up but that's different. Cigarettes aren't evocative of a negative portrayal of gay people. It's the watermelon connection that's tying this to racism here.
Lostconfused
Member
soul creator said:
Well then at that point in time it should stop being an issue for judging a person. Unless you are doing it subconsciously of course.
He's right:soul creator said:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
If the speaker had no racial motive, then obviously it was not from a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race (definition 1).
If the speaker had no racial motive, then there was no racial prejudice or discrimination (definition 2).
So he's right: it's not racism if there was no intent.
soul creator said:
Ten years ago, I would have generally agreed with you, but over the years my thinking has changed somewhat. We've got people running around spouting off the "N" word left and right with no hate associated with their use of it. Hell, in many cases it's used to promote camaraderie as insane as it seems from the outside looking in. In that sense, I think we've shifted things around a bit. I would have prior to this shift considered the "N" word and other racial slurs to be inherently negative words, displaying racism quite openly.
But by people attempting to take the words back - or whatever it's being called - they've made it impossible to consider any word inherently bad and something deserving of punishment for using it because you don't know why it was used. Motive becomes the focal point at this time, IMO.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
stupid question - is the watermelon and the sambo graphic the same?
i mean, that's ignoring that a sambo does infact look like a watermelon and is just one of those unfortunate things....
I mean, if you put in "faggots" you could (should) get a meaty set of balls... :O
RedNumberFive
Banned
First we have Capcom putting black zombies in a game that takes place on a predominantly black country, and now we have a gourd going by it's proper dictionary definition. Has someone notified N'Gai yet? I think he needs to get on the case!
Technosteve
Banned
pineapple soda is the best, right next to applesidra
Also, on one level this is a dictionary game so having support for the word isn't so much a problem. Really it is racist if you type it in intending for it to spawn a black person or stereotype for black people. In this case the game spawns its literal meaning, but the graphic so happens to resemble a watermelon which can be seen as a stereotype.
Scrabble isn't a racist game, but you might be depending on what word you decide to play. Sambo is in the scrabble dictionary with this definition:
"a Latin American of mixed black and Indian ancestry"
I don't think it would be racist to play that word unless you were thinking of or meant the racial slur. Same goes for faggot, it could be used as a slur or as a literal word.
After all in GTA you can beat up and kill innocent people on the street (which is worse than using a racial slur). If you wanted to you go around hunting people of a particular race and only kill them. That doesn't make the game racist, it makes the player racist.
Scrabble isn't a racist game, but you might be depending on what word you decide to play. Sambo is in the scrabble dictionary with this definition:
"a Latin American of mixed black and Indian ancestry"
I don't think it would be racist to play that word unless you were thinking of or meant the racial slur. Same goes for faggot, it could be used as a slur or as a literal word.
After all in GTA you can beat up and kill innocent people on the street (which is worse than using a racial slur). If you wanted to you go around hunting people of a particular race and only kill them. That doesn't make the game racist, it makes the player racist.
Technosteve
Banned
RedNumberFive said:
Eh, the reinforcements of some stereotypes with in the game was more of a problem
Seems like people are just digging deep for a controversy. There are plenty of words that have more then one meaning and you have to take how the word was used in context to judge what definition of the word was used. Of course news websites are going to blow it into something its not for clicks because that = money for them. People that look for issues like this will find them only because they want to.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Ciggarette -> fag <-> faggot -> stick that is burnt -> faggot -> homosexualLiveFromKyoto said:
Some people think that the etymology of the derogatory form of the word faggot derives from the fact that people thought that homosexuals should be set on fire, therefore it could be considered offensive.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Rashanii said:
Orange Crush is the best of the orange soda variety. For or Against?
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