Yet conveniently did not include voters ages 18-34.
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Bernie or Busters are flocking Philly to protest DNC, city projecting 35-50k protesto
- Thread starter RustyNails
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Thank you for shutting down and dismissing everything that I said by simplifying into something I never said. It just proves my point that people treat this like a game when it's not. I wish I had that luxury like some of you have.
By the way, democracy is not a flawless system, as we've seen time and time again. I like the system, I even believe in it a lot, and I can recognize and dislike the flaws that it carries. Is it wrong to remind people how powerful is their vote, the consequences that it can have amongst millions of lives, and ask them to take their vote seriously and vote for what is the best for everyone rather than themselves?
At the end of the day, it's your choice, but again, I'm not gonna respect you for sitting at home or voting foolishly on a "protest" vote. I have given everyone earlier the reality of the current situation, now do what you will with it. Even if you sit out and don't vote, you are still involved in that reality and with it, you must take responsibility for whatever happens like everyone one else.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
I was wondering that as well.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
That's what the city expects for total protesters, not only the Bernie or Bust protesters. For reference there was an anti-fracking protest yesterday that organizers estimate had 10k protesters.
maquiladora
Member
I turned from CNN over Fox and they were interviewing one of the protestors. "I'm 60 years old, been a Democrat all my life and I'm thinking of voting for Trump - just to keep Hillary out of office".
Oh my god...people like this actually exist? I don't understand this logic....Trump is infinitely worse than any other candidate to somebody who has been a lifelong Democrat. It makes no sense.
Oh my god...people like this actually exist? I don't understand this logic....Trump is infinitely worse than any other candidate to somebody who has been a lifelong Democrat. It makes no sense.
And sitting at home doesn't just have one consequence, it has numerous.
Let's also not forget that most of what you will be voting for is not the president. And that shit matters! Arguably as much, if not more so in some regards then the presidential election.
2010 should of been a wake up call to the "every 4 years...maybe" voting crowd.
Fox will actively seek out that one person that fits their narrative and use it to broadbrush.
It's their M.O.
TheRagnCajun
Member
Its obviously spite. "Bernie or Bust" - well I guess its Bust then. People not taking their vote seriously enough may soon learn the same hard lesson as the UK.
perfectchaos007
Member
With all the stuff wikileaks just revealed, I can see why 50K would be motivated enough to protest the establishment. Ending establishment politics just shot up on the priority list for me.
maquiladora
Member
True. Still, it makes no sense to me that anyone who identified as a Democrat could consider voting for Trump.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The thing is 50K is a massive overestimation. Not even 100 showed up.
Protest the establishment and replace it with... what?
Grimm Fandango
Member
But the convention has barely even started yet right? Sure the numbers probably won't reach the estimate but not sure why most people here are laughing at the turnout.
The Russian establishment through Trump. I'm sure some dipshit will give Putin the moral high ground over Clinton.
Edit: until proven otherwise I'll just assume that Trump is Putin's "cuck".
Beer Monkey
Member
I'd have expected more on Sunday as it isn't a work day for most, but who knows. Maybe DWS will motivate some more to hit the road and head to Philly.
gutter_trash
Banned
keep in mind that the average busy person only tune during the evening when the stellar cast of speakers will be up tonight
Booker, Michelle Obama, Warren, Sanders that is what people will see on TV tonight,... not these loley single issue protesters
Warren is going to tea off for progressives and Sanders is going to finish the night on a high note and will be the voice of unity. That will be the take way at the end of the night
Booker, Michelle Obama, Warren, Sanders that is what people will see on TV tonight,... not these loley single issue protesters
Warren is going to tea off for progressives and Sanders is going to finish the night on a high note and will be the voice of unity. That will be the take way at the end of the night
Scrotum Phillips
Member
"Bernie or Bust" is basically the equivalent of a toddlers temper tantrum at this moment.
I voted for Bernie, I still wish it was him instead of Hillary getting the nomination - but he lost. He lost by millions of votes. I can't spin that nor do I want to even entertain that train of thought. Of course there are some things from the primaries I want changed, but Hillary won.
What Bernie incredibly did get accomplished deserves a shit ton of praise and I give a lot of that credit to Clinton for not being tone deaf. The changes that Bernie fought so hard to achieve are largely part of the Democratic Platform. Also, she's giving him a primetime opportunity to speak at the convention and his role likely won't diminish all that much come November.
Like, sometime you lose. Just take the 'L' with some dignity and move on. There's a lot to appreciate about what he's meant for the future of this country IF Clinton gets elected. Just concentrate on more local elections and continue building an organic movement that starts from the bottom and moves to the top. That's how change happens.
I voted for Bernie, I still wish it was him instead of Hillary getting the nomination - but he lost. He lost by millions of votes. I can't spin that nor do I want to even entertain that train of thought. Of course there are some things from the primaries I want changed, but Hillary won.
What Bernie incredibly did get accomplished deserves a shit ton of praise and I give a lot of that credit to Clinton for not being tone deaf. The changes that Bernie fought so hard to achieve are largely part of the Democratic Platform. Also, she's giving him a primetime opportunity to speak at the convention and his role likely won't diminish all that much come November.
Like, sometime you lose. Just take the 'L' with some dignity and move on. There's a lot to appreciate about what he's meant for the future of this country IF Clinton gets elected. Just concentrate on more local elections and continue building an organic movement that starts from the bottom and moves to the top. That's how change happens.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
The binary you're engaging in is the exact reason why as absurd a candidate as Trump can hijack a major first world political faction in the first place; he's propped up by people who don't agree with him but think they have to vote for him or the liberals will destroy their religion, or their economy, or let terrorists into the nation en masse, or stack the supreme court with their enemies, etc.
There are any number of reasons why someone would find a Hillary presidency unacceptable. They may be strongly anti-capitalist, and feel that it is a system of oppression that affects 99% of the population, a bondage they see as violent, severe and exploitative, and Trump and Hillary two variations on that theme. You see Trump being cruel in America, they see Hillary as decades-long standard bearer for a US government system that's killing hundreds of thousands globally every year and enslaving millions more in factories.
They could be an ardent pacifist, and resent the fact that Hillary is more hawkish than Obama, whose own uncomfortable record with drone strikes is largely ignored by his supporters. A serious Buddhist may feel they simply couldn't cast that vote in the grand scheme.
I don't even disagree with you that voting for Hillary makes the most sense in this election, or that a Trump presidency would be an awful thing. But I won't deride the heart of democracy to make that point by condemning anyone with the conviction to be a conscientious objector or vote their conscience for a 3rd party candidate. An America with more than two viable parties would be a better place for the world in general.
To the last part first, an America with more than two viable parties is not going to happen nor will it when these 3rd parties refuse to start from the bottom and always focus on the top. The First Past The Post system, the electoral college, and the 12th Amendment are all things that need to be addressed before getting there, and it's not even something that most 3rd parties even bother adding to their platform. The truth is that you're gonna need a Constitutional Amendment, which requires 2/3rds of the House and Senate to approve the proposal and send it to the states for a vote and 3/4th of the states must affirm the proposed Amendment. Because of that, you will never get a viable system outside the current one unless you elect people who support such a thing.
Now, as I said, you vote as you wish, but the reality of the situation beats what you feel about it and it has been painfully laid out. You have those two options, and you have to accept that. Should you stay home and not vote, or vote foolishly under protest for a third party, that's your choice and you need to accept the reality and the consequences that comes with it. Ignoring said reality and pretending you're not involved in it is something I will not respect you for. Use your vote wisely, and make the best choice that's right for the people. You have the power to choose the fate of millions and the world in your hands, treat it responsibly and think wisely, not emotionally.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
What was revealed?
Gotdatmoney
Member
So you vote for trump why?
So instead of making an informed choice about what makes the most sense in the worlds current climate you vote Trump or don't vote at all? You think drone strikes are ending anytime soon?
These are not legitimate points. People cannot live in la la land and dodge responsibility by trying to justify things on a moral code. Tthe world will keep spinning living with the consequences of your actions regardless of whether you saved your soul in the process.
If you live in America you will either have a democrat leader or a republican come 2016. No amount of round about reasoning will change that. If you care more about your moral code than the literal futures of millions of people I would respect you more to just admit it.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
They absolutely wouldn't?
Why would the immediacy of their end compel an objector to take part in their occurrence?
I think I explained in detail why someone could quite rationally think otherwise. And your argument about a moral code is logically inconsistent to begin with. If you aren't upset about nonconformists not propping up your own moral code in this regard, why would you even be debating the point?
Bill clinton won wars in bosnia and kosovo. Hillary should be trumpeting that
It took the genocide of so many people before Clinton and the international community reacted. Those events in the 90s were a blight on human history and shouldn't be trumpted by anyone
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Exactly.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
You're still committing the same misreading of representative democracy. Not voting for Hillary is not voting for Trump. It doesn't put another vote in his tally. There will be objectors on his side as well, abstaining because he's not a true conservative/christian, or going libertarian.
Elections are the only direct voice a voter has in the shape their nation takes, and in terms of leadership only occurs once every four years. An individual has a limited number of chances in their lifetime to make their thoughts known. A meaningfully voiced abstention, or voting in a different direction is still very much an important communication in that regard.
RustyNails
Member
A lost Hillary vote works in favor of President Trump. Let that sink in. Our democracy is not direct. We only do propositions, not elect leaders. Gore won the popular vote yet W became President. Why do you think that happened? A case can be made that he was a weak candidate, but a stronger case can be made that voters that traditionally voted for democrats went for a far more progressive spoiler candidate; lost Gore votes!
LiveFromKyoto
Member
There are people who simply don't want anything to do with either of them. Let that sink in.
There are people who gave up everything to fight in the Occupy movement and would rather die than get behind a candidate who has Citibank, JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs as 3 of her 5 largest donors. They don't see her as any less of the real problem than Trump.
There are minorities who see that police killings, privatized prisons and disproportionate arrests and convictions still happen in Democrat states, and think the argument that only Hillary can stop the barbarians at the gate is just part of the big lie.
There are people who either come from, or have relatives in countries that exploitationist US policy has ravaged, worse than the fears people have for Trump, and want to vote for a future outside of the two parties who propagate that system.
There aren't only two possible visions of the future, or only one ethical vote.
balladofwindfishes
Member
There is no way to avoid both of them. One of them will be president.
Waylon Drums
Member
These people are gonna tea party us right into a Trump presidency.
It doesn't matter if you don't want either. They are your only two choices for president. Third parties cannot win, only one of those two will win.
Ding ding. The arrogance of these people is astonishing.
Yeah sure but clinton found his balls. Obama is still searching for his. The guy wants to work with putin FFS. Imagine clinton working with russian as the serbs were slaughtering kosovars
Aaronrules380
Member
The entire way the US voting system is set up makes third parties unviable, because small third parties will only take away votes from the bigger parties that share views with them, inevitably helping the people least similar to the third party. In a system like America's, people will naturally coalesce into 2 distinct parties formed of several distinct groups with similar views because that's the best way to actually win an election
Aaronology
Member
Ok. Fair enough. Detail to me the options available to you to end "establishment politics" and what are you going to do on Nov. 8th that will facilitate this.
Raitosaito
Member
Well, just saw these people at a congressional breakfast on CSPAN. Schwartz got booed during the whole speech, and saying things like "Thank god for wikileaks." Awesome.
Wikileaks know what they are doing.
There are 4 more info dumps coming this week. The last one outed the chair of the DNC. I have to imagine that the coming leaks are going to be more and more incendiary by the day, with the most damning probably being released hours before Clinton speaks.
I've got a feeling we haven't seen anything yet.
There are 4 more info dumps coming this week. The last one outed the chair of the DNC. I have to imagine that the coming leaks are going to be more and more incendiary by the day, with the most damning probably being released hours before Clinton speaks.
I've got a feeling we haven't seen anything yet.
Are you implying that voting works for this stuff? Or that voting is the only way to change things?
This is a pretty common sentiment, so I have a question. What can she do to prove to you that she's trustworthy? Going by the way people have responded to her policies and positions as "flip-flopping" or doing whatever to get elected, it seems like people won't trust she'll actually champion the issues she says she will until she's already in office and championing these bills in Congress. Which means that it's impossible for her to get people to trust her before the election. So what would it take for you to take her at her word before November 8?
They'd be stupid to dump the most damning stuff before she speaks. Let her have her say, then come out with the megatons the hour after she's done or the next morning.
mercenar1e
Member
It would be wise to release it right before she speaks to rile up the crowd and have the media plaster it all over the news so it gets more airtime than the content of her actual speech
Millions will be tuned in.
Unless it's able to incite some kind of mass booing. We don't know what they have.
Feels like the only possible way to salvage this election at this point is to oust Clinton as the nominee and throw all the support behind Sanders in a last ditch effort to gather all the disillusioned voters behind a message of reform and transparency. Those e-mails would mean absolutely NOTHING in a Sanders vs Trump election and so this ploy by the russians/wikileaks would fall on its face.
Of course this is complete fantasy and would never happen, so I fully expect the Democrats to lose this fall. I'm absolutely in the "anyone-but-Trump" camp so I'll be out there voting for Hillary, but I'm going into this fully expecting her to lose.
Velcro Fly
Member
Yeah I'm sure the best course of action is to nominate Sanders over Clinton.
If we are dumping Hillary and ignoring the entire primary process we might as well get Biden in there to actually stand a chance of winning.
If we are dumping Hillary and ignoring the entire primary process we might as well get Biden in there to actually stand a chance of winning.
Omegasquash
Member
Lovely. We're in the midst of neighbor hating neighbor, and being more comfortable in saying it outright. We're in a position to choose between someone who's going to fuck us, and need to choose between getting fucked the least, and there are people who are just deciding not to choose because...fuck it. We're getting a mass shooting more often than not, and our legislators can't or won't do a thing about it because rights (nudge nudge, wink wink).
Things are Always Sunny in Philadelphia, except for a chairperson of a major national party that did exactly what she wasn't supposed to do, and everyone goddamn knew it, and then got busted on it, and then got a job on the campaign of the person that lots of us want to win but now feel a whole shitload worse about, but we're still gonna vote for her because we don't want a worse person in the White House.
So yeah, things are lovely.
Agreed. It's only going to get worse for Clinton. The main theme in this whole election, on both sides is the outsider candidate. The more leaks that come out, the more evident it will become to everyone that Hillary is the antithesis of that.
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