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Big Boss or Solid Snake? Why?
- Thread starter entremet
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Metal Gear 2, in what turned out to be some of the series' most succinct writing, laid out Snake's motivation and Big Boss's worldview in under a minute:
We didn't get why Big Boss turned out this way until MGS3, but Gray Fox spells out his philosophy and what he ended up doing to other people right here. Snake immediately rejects it. Kojima could've had him find his peace at the end of MG2 right there, but it didn't end up being until the end of MGS that he explicitly breaks from his past and Big Boss's cycle of war, and looks for a new path in life. That's it. He's done. MGS4 ends the exact same way and his character hasn't moved an inch.
Rogue Agent
Banned
He defeated the actual Big Boss twice, one of the times being his first mission, before even encountering Liquid (Spoiler:
Who was never really possessing Ocelot, so I don't understand your argument there
Auron_Kale
Member
Solid Snake for me.
It's great we've had all these games explaining how Naked Snake became Big Boss, but I'm tired of it all. As much as love the Metal Gear saga, not sure I'll be getting Ground Zeroes/Phantom Pain as I don't want more Big Boss.
Solid's always had the more compelling story to me, unlike his dad. Also, I like his friendship with Otacon and Raiden while I miss his friendship with Meryl. MGS3 was good, but I still missed Solid while playing.
It's great we've had all these games explaining how Naked Snake became Big Boss, but I'm tired of it all. As much as love the Metal Gear saga, not sure I'll be getting Ground Zeroes/Phantom Pain as I don't want more Big Boss.
Solid's always had the more compelling story to me, unlike his dad. Also, I like his friendship with Otacon and Raiden while I miss his friendship with Meryl. MGS3 was good, but I still missed Solid while playing.
Big Boss was no less of a puppet than Snake. MGS3 has him hamstrung along an elaborate plot to kill his mentor, and by the end of it, it all turns out that his superiors were the ones who anticipated his mentor to stage her defection to begin with.
Also Liquid owed his "persistence" to nanomachines if you can even call it that. He died after the first game.
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
Big Boss wasn't even in his prime. Solid Snake, a clone of Big boss and in his prime, took out an old man past his. Big whoop.
Weltall Zero
Member
For me it's always, always been about her.
Can I have a game starring her please.
Yep, was going to post that. Well, I guess technically I already did.
See that's why I love Sold Snake more because he is, or shall we say was, more detached and unemotional. My favorite part in MGS1 is after you beat Mantis and Meryl starts to ask Snake some questions about his past and Snake just swats them down one by one with a line or two.
Meryl: So tell me, Snake. What's your name? Your real name?
Snake: A name means nothing on the battlefield.
Meryl: How old are you?
Snake: Old enough to know what death looks like.
Meryl: Any family?
Snake: No, but I was raised by many people.
Meryl: Is there anyone you like?
Snake: I've never been interested in anyone else's life...
Meryl: So you are all alone. Just like Mantis said.
Snake: Other people just complicate my life. I don't like to get involved.
Meryl: You're a sad, lonely man.
Stone cold, and I love it. Plus, the whole point of the game was watching Snake grow from this detached solo asshole into an actual human being and by MGS2 he's fighting for a cause and his beliefs and what not. Of course MGS4 threw that all the way and made him a grumpy old man. I've always found Snake more compelling than BB.
Unknown One
Member
Solid Snake could have found his peace at the end of any game really. MG1, MG2, MGS, MGS2, and the terrible MGS4. Fans/publishers demanded sequels so he made a plot for such.
It didn't move an inch because MGS4 took away his development from the prior games. He didn't even ask question about his orders like he did in MGS1. MGS4 really character assassinated Solid Snake. He found a new path of life in MGS2. Fighting to eradicate Metal Gear, so the world would be a better place. Then pops in MGS4, an old man just blindly following orders.
MGS3 didn't even need to happen. It was just to flesh out Big Boss and turned into something more. Square Enix could have done the same with Sephiroth basically. Ex good guy turned evil.
Unknown One
Member
The guy took a rocket launcher to kill in the game. Came back as a Cyborg in MG2 and still got whooped.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I prefer Solid Snake. He doesn't have much feelings and doesn't like people. He's a solitary guy, a lone wolf, not a leader like Big Boss. I like that kind of character.
I've never liked Big Boss's adventures and utopian projects. Also, he's an authority figure, which I don't like, and the Big Boss games have always seemed pointless to me. It's just a long chain of retcon and fanservice.
I've never liked Big Boss's adventures and utopian projects. Also, he's an authority figure, which I don't like, and the Big Boss games have always seemed pointless to me. It's just a long chain of retcon and fanservice.
Lots of people say this and I disagree, aside from the rapid aging and the prospect of ending up alone, The Snake we meet in MGS4 failed to accomplish any of the things he set out to do in 2. The patriots took over, the world became a censorship nightmare and war became common. Given the circumstances, it would be odd if he wasn't a curmudgeon.
MGS2 was a good follow-up and would have been a good cap-off for Snake's character as his fight was removed from the proxy-wars, but to be fair to MGS4 it paints a world view where each character is facing radically different circumstances, not just in terms of the rebellion and the wars but Snake's own personal aging crippling his life and his future. It's what finally makes him see himself for who he is and he realizes the future for himself that he fought for doesn't exist. Until Big Boss finally snaps him back into reality.
And I wouldn't say he's following orders throughout MGS4, the Colonel is his supervisor more than anything as he trusts that Otacon and Snake are the only ones capable of stopping Liquid. It all still ties back into the themes MGS2 explored about how genes aren't the only thing that allows people to set their mark on the world, and that's still a goal Otacon and Snake were fighting to fulfill.
Unknown One
Member
Kojima didn't even wanted to make the game. The series was suppose to end with MGS2. The ending was up for the player to decide.
TheKastorian
Member
Both are great, obviously, but I feel that Solid Snake's existence -since the moment he was cloned from Big Boss- was just to be manipulated by every organization he served. Personally, I think that makes him a more tragic figure and I show great sympathy towards him.
The Silver
Member
Big Boss is much more flawed, more prone to mistakes, just more relateable in general, Big Boss is a man driven by his emotions.
Solid Snake(Mostly his MGS1 self) is pretty much the ultimate badass; he's suave, he's sharp, he's good looking, and he's focused on the job. I doubt Solid would have gotten seduced by EVA for one thing.
I really want prime Solid back(we haven't had a full game with him since MGS1 damnit) but as a character I like Big Boss more.
Solid Snake(Mostly his MGS1 self) is pretty much the ultimate badass; he's suave, he's sharp, he's good looking, and he's focused on the job. I doubt Solid would have gotten seduced by EVA for one thing.
I really want prime Solid back(we haven't had a full game with him since MGS1 damnit) but as a character I like Big Boss more.
I know, but even if you think it was a mistake for Kojima to give Snake the sort of future in the first place, his character makes sense given how the world developed.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I go with Solid Snake due to the tragic hero angle.
But I'm also a big fan of Big Snake and Solid Boss.
But I'm also a big fan of Big Snake and Solid Boss.
Yeah its Solid Snake for me, Why? Well despite all the hardships, betrayals and revelations he's had to face throughout his life, he's never once wavered, he just keeps finding the strength to move forward and inspiring others close to him to go on as well, he showed that even though he might be a genetic clone of another person, he isn't that person nor is he chained to their destiny but to his own, under his gruff exterior is a man who, holds no real grudge against anything or anyone for wronging him in anyway or would use that as an excuse to lash out at the world, he plays with the cards he is dealt and even with the odds against him, he comes out on top though often not the clean outcome he would except at times.
I do believe had it been Solid in Big Boss's place, he would have interpreted the Boss's words more carefully.
I do believe had it been Solid in Big Boss's place, he would have interpreted the Boss's words more carefully.
Man he is so right, why is Big Boss so goddamn stupid? It really bothered me in Peace Walker, remember PW takes place after The Patriots have been founded and BB has finally left. So let me repeat this, he just left an organization where he helped control the whole world! And yet, in PW he acts like some idiot grunt who has no idea what the hell is going on around the world or behind the scenes. Kaz basically pokes and prods BB along to do whatever he likes, hell the whole Outer Heaven sea base idea was Kaz's idea not BB. At no point during PW does BB feel like an actual leader, yet we are repeatedly told how great a leader he was in subsequent games. And then at the end when he learns about Paz and Cipher, Miller has to straight up tell him who they are.
I really hope Big Boss smartens up and becomes the supposed legendary leader he is supposed to be in MGSV. However, the one thing I noticed about TPP trailer is that it was Kaz once again talking, vowing for revenge and what not. Again, who the fuck is in charge here Kaz or BB?
For me it's always, always been about her.
Can I have a game starring her please.
Although to be honest, I'm more in love with Big Boss than Solid. He won me over with Snake Eater and I've loved him ever since.
I think I remember Kojima saying that he'd like to see a The Boss game, just that he wouldn't be the one making it.
Manmademan
Member
eh? that doesn't sound right. MGS2 explicitly ends on a cliffhanger.
"I found out who the patriots are, but these people have all been dead for 100 years!", and revolver ocelot resurrecting liquid snake and disappearing with Metal Gear Ray doesn't exactly say "oh, it's up for the player to decide."
MGS3 (or 4, whatever) was a certainty as soon as it was released.
METAL GEAR (the first one, on MSX) was intended to be a standalone product, until Snake's Revenge sort of forced the creation of MG2: Solid Snake.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I agree with this. I choose to ignore the MGS4 (and 3 and Peace Walker, for that matter) storyline entirely. MGS1 and 2 are the perfect arc for Solid Snake as a character (Edit: Now that I think of it, I like MGS1 Snake better).
Unknown One
Member
If I had it my way, MGS4 would have been starred by a non cyborg Raiden with Solid Snake retired. In a way MGS2 is snake taking a backseat for the next generation.
I for one hope we NEVER get a Boss game. Why? I prefer leaving her past a secret. Big Boss had that same thing going for him until MGS3, once you actually make a game about the character than a lot of their mystery and appeal is lost. I don't want to see a game focused on The Boss for that same reason, because even if we were to get a game about her it would be in the past and she would be a far different character than the one we saw in MGS3. In MGS3 she is completely cold, she's lost everything she has ever loved, and practically wants to die (besides the fact that she was ordered to). A game in her past, say WWII, would have her be much more emotional and maybe even hopeful and I don't want to see that side of her on screen. I'd much rather leave it all to my imagination.
RIght, but Kojima never intended to go beyond that point. He was actually going to move away from the series and let another team take over for MGS3, but they ran into problems during development and he got pulled back in.
I'd have made it set entirely in the Middle East, and about Snake infiltrating Liquid Ocelot's own version of Outer Heaven.
Big Boss does act like a legendary soldier (taking down a Metal Gear is legit) and does forge a welcoming home kind of feeling for soldiers (child and adult) in Peace Walker (Paz's audio diary and the soldiers from warring countries being buddies helps paint that picture). The series is never shy about noting how much Zero's propaganda builds up these "legends" or stating that legends are never as great in real life as in the stories. Kaz is the visionary. The man with the big ideas and the whatever it takes attitude to make them work. He practically created PMCs, but without Big Boss's aura and hero worship it would have never worked.
entremet
Member
Yep. This is what I loved about Solid Snake and drew me in. Sad that Kojima just wants us to focus on Naked.
SnakeLinkSonic
Member
I do sort of like the mentality of bitterness Big Boss takes at the end of Peace Walker in regards of not wanting to live up to The Boss's will, but Solid definitely filled the shoes Big Boss cowers away from (and Gray Fox essentially explains why later on down the road). It's one of the best signifiers of why Solid Snake is a far more admirable/interesting character for me.
Once again, he sounds like a stupid child not aware of foolish he actually is until passing out and dying on top of The Boss's grave all those years later.
Big Boss chose not to fight for a world in which he could not be a part of.
Solid Snake knowingly fought for that world, recognizing there's no place for him there.
Also, for a chuckle I call Verendus's post to the stand: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=66289236&postcount=436
Oh, sure, the Shagohod. Nice little rocket tank. Solid 1 and 2 had a giant mech. 4 lets you drive the giant mech. 4 also gave you a railgun. 3 doesn't have a mech or a railgun.
Yup, I liked both of those games. Rising a bit more, though. I've never liked a game starring Big Boss. MGS3 totally turned me off him as a character. And then they keep making more of games with him.
To me, The Metal Gear series continues in Rising. If it's a prequel, I'm not interested. Unless you get to play as Raiden rescuing Sunny from the Patriots. But anything before the first Metal Gear on MSX? Nope, not buying it.
Rogue Agent
Banned
Snake is an idealist. Kaz is a pragmatic business man. So it's only natural that Kaz has all these ideas. Snake didn't care about settling down on an offshore base. He preferred wandering from conflict to conflict, like a nomad. Just because he has different ideas and leaves all the business stuff to Kaz, does not mean that he's stupid. Snake is not cunning as Kaz, but lack of cunningness does not equal stupidity. Snake, at this stage, is not opportunistic like Kaz is.
Also for the most part, Kaz does get Snake to confirm his ideas and other things, despite him going behind his back to accept Zero's support, which he admitted and apologised for. Therefore, Snake is behind the development of MSF, etc. for the simple fact that Kaz needs Snake to accept all his business propositions.
This whole relationship between Snake and Kaz, with these opposing views is actually what makes Peace Walker so great to me. Snake's more of the loyal soldier with some pretty mad ideals, whilst Kaz is the cunning business man and visionary.
The Silver
Member
Seeing how big a role Miller played in the grand scheme makes it sad how he was did in in the middle of nowhere by Liquid.
But he is legitimately stupid in the game, seriously you don't know who Cipher is? Also, I found the relationship to be more like:
Kaz: Hey Boss, I'm telling you this will be a great idea we should build an entire army out here, and then we can send them to fight conflicts around the world, and we'll make a bunch of money, and people will love us soldiers and we'll always have a place and be needed. Sounds great right? I've already started implementing all these great ideas, you're okay with this right?
Big Boss: *grunt* Sure, I guess, I'm just a simple soldier Kaz all I know is battle.
Kaz: Didn't you use to secretly run the entire world with a small group of others?
Big Boss: .... Like I said I'm just a soldier, I can't put down my gun.
Rogue Agent
Banned
This is just a theory, but I think most of it has to do with Kojima thinking he has to make the player character somewhat naive. This got worse with MGS3 when he put more of his silly humour in the codec conversations and when he fired the english translators who did the excellent job of localizing the previous games and giving us great dialogue like foxtrot3d posted with Solid Snake and Meryl. Whether it's Raiden being a rookie, or Solid Snake being old, or humbling Big Boss at times as Santa Claus-believing manchild they're always playing up the buffoon aspect of the player character for comic relief and to rationalise Snake having things "explained" to him depending on the situation. You've got to really seperate that at this point from the context of the serious stuff like I imagine some of the subjects involving Child Soldiers we'll see in the Phantom Pain.
Basically, I think you're right. It's not so much about Big Boss or Solid Snake being the more intelligent/cool character, it's all about presentation and the tone of the scene which has evolved with the games and the different roles the characters take in the story. That's why Solid Snake was so philosophical in MGS2 because he wasn't the player but a mouthpiece for Kojima.
They were already building an army, BB just never planned on a home base, but when it was offered as a gift for a contract that involved figuring out why he heard The Boss's voice in a recording he let Kaz get his base.
I know that, it's just the fact that BB just seems so clueless and uninterested in actually leading the whole game. He always has this tone of "I don't know much bout no computers" yet we are supposed to believe that he was once a Patriot.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Snake of course. He's a much better character in MGS2 and MGS1 than big boss.
MGS4 snake is worst, easily.
MGS4 snake is worst, easily.
Big Boss is easily the more relatable of the two, at least in MGS3. I don't feel like we really understand how Solid ticks in the way we know BB.
For the life of me, I cannot understand this reasoning.
For the life of me, I cannot understand this reasoning.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Really it's Big Boss for me because of 3.
I think that is why he was eventually fed up with it and left. He was just a show pony Zero trotted out when he needed him. A mascot.
Dick Justice
Banned
I hope Kojima finally has the balls to go all the way with Big Boss in Phantom Pain and actually have him turn into an evil bastard. Portable Ops and Peace Walker just needlessly extended and padded out his turn that was pretty blatantly set up at the end of 3. Yes, he's forced to kill his mentor, starting his turn to the dark side. Great, now let's continue calling him Snake for a while and delay the shit out of his personality change.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I'd love to have The Boss game too.
I'm honestly not sure how that is going to happen. From what I remember of Metal Gear 1 and 2, he becomes a warmonger (stealing the FUELX or whatever it's called, his speech about using child soldiers to create more war and child soldiers) but it seems like all of the children he rescued were appreciative and really felt like he gave them a home and a great purpose. Maybe it's just brainwashing I don't know.
The warmonger stuff certainly seems to be kind of retconned into Kaz's character going forward though. He sees war as a business and is banking on the war economy. Maybe that was his reason to eventually end up with the Patriots.
Big Boss sort of got shunned and never recovered. It doesn't ever seem like he finds his place. Solid Snake gets shunned, used and betray, but he really never gave up on the world. Big Boss seems to be getting into an attitude of "let the world be chaos and war, let it all burn".