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[Parakeetman]

Its no more shit than Dragons Crown, Senran Kagura, Onechanbara, Code of Princess etc.

Senran Kagura / Onechanbara obviously had a target market in mind which was not the female audience. So little point in your argument there.

Code of Princess no idea where that stands, besides trying to get folks from the Guardian Heroes days on board.

Dragons Crown the artist most def is a fan of the old school Western Fantasy art such as pieces by the legend Frank Frazetta for example. Few of his more SFW designs.
The fantasy style itself too with the title goes back to how a lot of the older Western Fantasy also had a lot of eroticism in the designs and poses. Its the type of fantasy style they chose to portray with the games design.

and the ever so hilarious answer from the artist himself.

 

[Crossing Eden]

it's even worse high-res, oh god my eyes

I wish I could've gone to the pitch for this outfit, I mean seriously, the amount of work that goes into this stuff, and the amount of discussion about the outfit itself and this is what they decided was a good idea.

 

[boiled goose]

given some of the replies in this thread, I think the article was very effective at pointing out the hypocrisy and starting a conversation. I'm talking about individual people and not a hivemind of course

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Why don't you find out for us and post the results?

Cus it's easier to ask people and have them reply to me whether they did or didn't than trawl through everyone's post history.

 

[Phatcorns]

I was about to post in the Mevius thread that people complaining about the costume are being hypocritical. Someone beat me to the punch.

Guys, ladies like the sexy guys just as much as we like the sexy ladies.

 

[Winterfang]

How many people who came into this thread or the other one and posted about how "badly designed" the outfit was also posted about how badly designed the bikini girl from MGSV is? And how many criticised this outfit but defended that "because she's in the desert it makes sense!!!!" (while the male player character stands beside her in full body gear)

No idea but both are godawful. Quiet has too little (well not to little, is just the ripped stockings and the fact that she was designed so cosplayers wore skimping clothes)

While this guy, I just think has a stupid armor, and she have less of it. The armor would look better as a tight leather armor with some metal details. But those ribbons shield things are just weird.

 

[Ratrat]

Senran Kagura / Onechanbara obviously had a target market in mind which was not the female audience. So little point in your argument there.

Code of Princess no idea where that stands, besides trying to get folks from the Guardian Heroes days on board.

Dragons Crown the artist most def is a fan of the old school Western Fantasy art such as pieces by the legend Frank Frazetta for example

and the ever so hilarious answer from the artist himself.

I'm sure the designer was thinking about you when creating it. The design is getting so much flack for what is incredibly modest sexualiztion compared to most female characters in games. It is ridiculous. This would not be happening on a female only forum.

 

[Flappy]

Guys, ladies like the sexy guys just as much as we like the sexy ladies.

The issue is more of the silly style, than it is him being partly uncovered.

They could have had him shirtless and there would have been no problem. But instead he's wearing something crazy that you would usually see a woman wearing on a catwalk.

There are plenty of half-naked male outfits in gaming that never get hate. This one got it for the sheer shitness of the design.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

No idea but both are godawful. Quiet has too little (well not to little, is just the ripped stockings and the fact that she was designed so cosplayers wore skimping clothes).

Actually it's the opposite. Kojima was hoping her design would cause cosplayers to not cosplay as her.

Edit: oops, guess I was wrong. Could have sworn I read something where he said that.

 

[jett]

This was always a better design for Vaan.

The weird thing is the 2d (granted by a different artist / his appearance in a diff game) his original outfit does not look that bad in this design. Since the clothing has been adjusted a bit from the original designs.

It's not just the design, but the attitude he projects with that feminine pose in the CG picture posted earlier and how his vest hangs low from his shoulder, like a woman's dress. He has virtually Aladdin's outfit, but nobody would say Aladdin looks girly.

Regarding the character in the OP, I can only say that he doesn't appeal to me.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

More gamer shaming sounds such a great way to begin 2015. The cultural revolution must go on, opponents will be ridiculed.

Honestly, I always thought bikini armor was a thing from the 80s and from the heydays of Valis anyway. It looks impractical and ridiculous, and, from the audience standpoint, more than a little embarrasing.

Its no more shit than Dragons Crown, Senran Kagura, Onechanbara, Code of Princess etc.

Looks like we have the authorized and official list of immoral games lined up fort the next games burning party. Great.

 

[boiled goose]

Senran Kagura / Onechanbara obviously had a target market in mind which was not the female audience. So little point in your argument there.

Code of Princess no idea where that stands, besides trying to get folks from the Guardian Heroes days on board.

Dragons Crown the artist most def is a fan of the old school Western Fantasy art such as pieces by the legend Frank Frazetta for example.







and the ever so hilarious answer from the artist himself.

the dragons crown is a false equivocation. The females are definitely sexualized and the males are maCho-ized... but its not the same context matters.

in our current society, and definitely historicalLy, one gender has been discriminated against and valued solely for its appearance... it is almost impossible to imagine what the equivalent male sexualization would look like because we do not live in our world where males have been discriminated against and historically objectified

 

[Corpekata]

Actually it's the opposite. Kojima was hoping her design would cause cosplayers to not cosplay as her.

Got a source for that? Because it was widely reported that he designed her to encourage it.

 

[Orniletter]

I don't mind sexy designs for both genders at all tbh.

I mean, I don't think that design is particularly great, but it's not "OH MY GOD, MY EYES !!!"-hideous either.

There should be more man-service in games in general. It's only fair.

...and I kinda don't see the double standards she is speaking of...but oh well..

 

[Ratrat]

it is almost impossible to imagine what the equivalent male sexualization would look like because we do not live in our world where males have been discriminated against and historically objectified

It would make straight men too uncomfortable.

 

[neojubei]

It's weird because dudes don't wear bikinis.
It should have been a speedo armour instead.

there are bikinis for men and i like the character's design

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Got a source for that? Because it was widely reported that he designed her to encourage it.

I was wrong. I thought I read somewhere about that being the reason but google search corrected me.

 

[Parakeetman]

I don't mind sexy designs for both genders at all tbh.

I mean, I don't think that design is particularly great, but it's not "OH MY GOD, MY EYES !!!"-hideous either.

There should be more man-service in games in general. It's only fair.

...and I kinda don't see the double standards she is speaking of...but oh well..

Well Final Fantasy 15 is coming out "eventually" which pretty much has been toted as being "man-service" to the max.

 

[TheYanger]

How many people who came into this thread or the other one and posted about how "badly designed" the outfit was also posted about how badly designed the bikini girl from MGSV is? And how many criticised this outfit but defended that "because she's in the desert it makes sense!!!!" (while the male player character stands beside her in full body gear)

Does it matter? I have never posted anything of the sort because these sorts of threads just don't interest me, so I'll use myself as an example:

I'm a white, 30 something straight male. Given a picture of a chainmail bikini and a guy that looks like Voldo, I will gravitate towards the chainmail bikini. Even if I were to then post that the bikini isn't a bad design (maybe lazy) and I liked the way it looked, while simultaneously stating that I dislike the voldo design because it does not appeal to me, that would STILL not make it hypocrisy. It would mean that I'm a person with tastes that align towards my lifestyle.

It's just as hypocritical to expect someone else to acknowledge the positives or negatives in something that YOU see in a design. You say 'oh they're the same thing'? I say no, they're not. One is a lady, which is something I'm interested in seeing more of, and one is a guy, which I am not.

This kind of stuff should be made for everyone, and there should be just as many things appealing towards one type of person as another (at least in the broadest sense), but the fact that there isn't has absolutely nothing to do with whether it's 'ok' for me or anyone else to express like or dislike towards something based on our biases.

Personally? I've played plenty of JRPGs and other games with half naked guys, I could give two shits. I do think the design in the first post is dumb, but it's hardly the worst I've ever seen. If I see a shirtless guy character that I think looks cool, I'm perfectly fine with it, the only difference between a guy and a girl in a design as far as I'm concerned is what attracts me to the character (different as I have different tastes in different genders, again straight male). You can call it power fantasy vs sexualization, but without derailing this post too much there are PLENTY of half naked males that I think look awesome (and I would kill to have abs like theirs) and plenty of very dressed ladies that I am attracted to too (if anything, I REALLY like powerful and assertive women in games, which are often the most overdressed in the industry).

It's ridiculous to hold each individual poster or player accountable for the industry trends at large, period. People should only be beholden to their own tastes. If your tastes don't align with a game, don't buy it. Same goes to anyone with the opposite tastes of yours. If you think the industry as a whole needs change? I don't disagree! but the way you go about that is not by shaming people for having an opinion, that just leads to them pushing back and we've seen how that goes. Their opinions are just as valid as yours, or anyone else's. There should be games that appeal to all audiences, and if a particular plate outfit is too bikini like for you, that's fine don't buy it. Just like anyone that finds the character in the OP too gross is free not to purchase that.

Edit: I should note this post isnt' even directed specifically AT you, but just this general line of thinking: That's it's ok to either universally hate skin, or love it, but not at all to have your own personal preference in between.

 

[Orniletter]

It's weird because dudes don't wear bikinis.
It should have been a speedo armour instead.

They have to hold something back for the inevitable swimsuit-DLC. Just you wait.

 

[akira28]

If only the Puritans could see us now.

I guess their cousins the Wahhabists can get a good larf out of all this.

When can we get a Banana Hammock battle suit, and maybe some horse armor? for the guy, no pants.

 

[freddy]

I don't see a problem with the armour. Not my thing but it's up to the designers and marketers.

 

[boiled goose]

It would make straight men too uncomfortable.

I'm sure haha.

I'm curious how male sexualization would look like from both the gay male and straight female perspective

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

we do not live in our world where males have been discriminated against and historically objectified

Except, that's not true. The current trend is that everyone has been set standards that they must reach to be considered attractive. Men are now being told they must dress, eat, act, smell and style a certain way. This "male ideal" isn't empowering to me and, yet, it's deemed "sexy. This stopped being a one way thing a long time ago if you look outside of games.

As for games, I don't feel empowered when I see the male chracters from Dragon's Crown, I feel uncomfortable and there's no "male power fantasy" where people like to feel uncomfortable. I find Kratos to be an interesting character, but I'm not empowered because I am a buff man killing gods or some other nonsensical scenario. It is possible for men to feel uncomfortable with "male power fantasy" and I hate that term because it implies that men want to play games where the character is an impossible beacon of manliness. I like to play games where the characters are normal most of the time or, if it is a fantasy scenario, where they are "just a person".

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Does it matter? I have never posted anything of the sort because these sorts of threads just don't interest me, so I'll use myself as an example:

I'm a white, 30 something straight male. Given a picture of a chainmail bikini and a guy that looks like Voldo, I will gravitate towards the chainmail bikini. Even if I were to then post that the bikini isn't a bad design (maybe lazy) and I liked the way it looked, while simultaneously stating that I dislike the voldo design because it does not appeal to me, that would STILL not make it hypocrisy. It would mean that I'm a person with tastes that align towards my lifestyle.

It's just as hypocritical to expect someone else to acknowledge the positives or negatives in something that YOU see in a design. You say 'oh they're the same thing'? I say no, they're not. One is a lady, which is something I'm interested in seeing more of, and one is a guy, which I am not.

This kind of stuff should be made for everyone, and there should be just as many things appealing towards one type of person as another (at least in the broadest sense), but the fact that there isn't has absolutely nothing to do with whether it's 'ok' for me or anyone else to express like or dislike towards something based on our biases.

Personally? I've played plenty of JRPGs and other games with half naked guys, I could give two shits. I do think the design in the first post is dumb, but it's hardly the worst I've ever seen. If I see a shirtless guy character that I think looks cool, I'm perfectly fine with it, the only difference between a guy and a girl in a design as far as I'm concerned is what attracts me to the character (different as I have different tastes in different genders, again straight male). You can call it power fantasy vs sexualization, but without derailing this post too much there are PLENTY of half naked males that I think look awesome (and I would kill to have abs like theirs) and plenty of very dressed ladies that I am attracted to too (if anything, I REALLY like powerful and assertive women in games, which are often the most overdressed in the industry).

It's ridiculous to hold each individual poster or player accountable for the industry trends at large, period. People should only be beholden to their own tastes. If your tastes don't align with a game, don't buy it. Same goes to anyone with the opposite tastes of yours. If you think the industry as a whole needs change? I don't disagree! but the way you go about that is not by shaming people for having an opinion, that just leads to them pushing back and we've seen how that goes. Their opinions are just as valid as yours, or anyone else's. There should be games that appeal to all audiences, and if a particular plate outfit is too bikini like for you, that's fine don't buy it. Just like anyone that finds the character in the OP too gross is free not to purchase that.

Edit: I should note this post isnt' even directed specifically AT you, but just this general line of thinking: That's it's ok to either universally hate skin, or love it, but not at all to have your own personal preference in between.

The point I was making is that it's bullshit to mask "not liking this because it's a guy" behind the "bad design" excuse while simultaneously enjoying or defending similar designs on women. I'm not saying you can't enjoy those designs, I'm just saying that if you're going to recognise it as a shit design on a man then you should recognise it as shit design on a woman. You can still enjoy things while appreciating why they are bad. (You =/= you singular, plural as in meaning everyone)

 

[TheYanger]

The point I was making is that it's bullshit to mask "not liking this because it's a guy" behind the "bad design" excuse while simultaneously enjoying or defending similar designs on women. I'm not saying you can't enjoy those designs, I'm just saying that if you're going to recognise it as a shit design on a man then you should recognise it as shit design on a woman. You can still enjoy things while appreciating why they are bad. (You =/= you singular, plural as in meaning everyone)

But it's the same argument, the idea of what is a good design or a bad design on a male or female (especially given that the armors inherantly LOOK DIFFERENT simply due to the different body types) is still going to vary person to person.

You cannot expect everyone to be beholden to the same ideas of what are a good design or bad design as you. Unless you have examples of those same people posting for that exact same design on a female, then it has 0 basis in reality.

Instead, you're assuming that people think it's bad purely on a basis of the amount of skin it shows, and EVEN THEN, it's a valid opinion to have because of how they themselves are going to be biased towards or against certain sexes (and no, that's not sexist, that would be like saying me liking a bikini on a girl and not on a guy is sexist).

 

[jetsetrez]

So Final Fantasy finally (all puns intended) decided to fully embrace its female-gazey nature and released initial promo pics with a male character not being cool and stoic, but under-dressed, sexy and vulnerable? Me like!

Wait, isn't she always complaining about guys who exhibit this exact sentiment? But she's okay with a "female gaze" and likes to see under-dressed, sexy male characters? Isn't this the definition of hypocrisy? The irony is making my head hurt.

People are allowed to like what they like and dislike what they don't like. A hetero dude is not being a hypocrite even if he says he likes a skimpy female outfit and doesn't like the same on a male; it's just what appeals to him. And if girls or gay dudes actually like this design, more power to them. I think it's a dumb design, but if it gets hetero women/gay men to buy the game more than it dissuades hetero men, then hey, more power to them.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I'm sure haha.

I'm curious how male sexualization would look like from both the gay male and straight female perspective

Isn't this armor an example your looking for?

 

[akira28]

My male power fantasy looks a lot like Henry Kissenger having Marilyn Monroe in the back of a limousine in the middle of rush hour traffic on a hot Monday afternoon.

Not Conan's six pack abs.


Can they make this guy look like a flabby old elderly Jewish guy instead?

 

[Pennywise83]

Senran Kagura / Onechanbara obviously had a target market in mind which was not the female audience. So little point in your argument there.

Code of Princess no idea where that stands, besides trying to get folks from the Guardian Heroes days on board.

Dragons Crown the artist most def is a fan of the old school Western Fantasy art such as pieces by the legend Frank Frazetta for example. Few of his more SFW designs.
The fantasy style itself too with the title goes back to how a lot of the older Western Fantasy also had a lot of eroticism in the designs and poses. Its the type of fantasy style they chose to portray with the games design.

Look, there is nothing wrong in wanting highly sexualized female characters. And anything wrong to admit that those games have highly sexualized female designs. Also, anything wrong that this happens way more often than for men, because traditional video games have been (are?) dominated by male gamers, as well as the game industry is nowadays.

You can defend or justify each one of those games, but the reality is that they try to present female designs based on sexual appeal. Then you have Dragon's Crown that also presents shirtless males, but the focus of the marketing was on females and also in the touch minigame you can of course molestate a pretty much naked girl, so that she could moan and whatever, but you cannot do exactly the same for the man (which also is not a stereotypical sexual representation of a men, be ware).

 

[Cipherr]

Why don't you find out for us and post the results?

Amen, then maybe the two sides can talk to each OTHER instead of into the foggy air about the imaginary opposing force.

These threads get annoying because its just people talking past people. If you feel there are people that are hypocrites, go dig up that thread and call them by name. Im sure the thread is still around.

 

[boiled goose]

Except, that's not true. The current trend is that ...

What?? ignoring your senseless rant, what is not true?

my post said historically and currently the two genders have not been objectified to the same degree. By saying not true ... are you saying that they have been or are currently??

I agree with you that males are increasingly being objectified then subjected to strange physical expectations, but surely you are not saying that it has been the same historically or is even the same today?

Isn't this armor an example your looking for?

Is it?

 

[Crossing Eden]

there are bikinis for men and i like the character's design

What about it do you like? I'm genuinely curious. I just don't see what's likable about it at all. To reiterate my criticisms
-generic white SE anime hair
-A face that is basically Noel+Hope, as in not an original look at all.
-Armor that is literally floating (and alsoclipping) in place because it doesn't have anything holding it

 

[Flappy]

I'm curious how male sexualization would look like from both the gay male and straight female perspective

I'm a straight male and I have no problem with male sexualisation. It's always been in gaming.

For over three decades I've been playing games with good looking, strong, partly-clothed men. Idealistic in every way. Both to men who want to be then, and women who want them.

In fact. There really aren't many ugly or out of shape male characters in gaming. Not outside of cartoon-style characters like Mario. Realistic games always have a good looking guy.

 

[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

The Bayonneto we don't deserve

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

What?? ignoring your senseless rant, what is not true?

my post said historically and currently the two genders have not been objectified to the same degree. By saying not true ... are you saying that they have been or are currently??

I agree with you that males are increasingly being objectified then subjected to strange physical expectations, but surely you are not saying that it has been the same historically or is even the same today?

Currently. In the past few years, the same techniques used against men as they were used against women. It's not a senseless rant, it's just not true that thinking that only women can be objectified or made to feel they must be a certain way. I'm just making the point, everyone is being played this way, it's no longer just a female issue and we shouldn't turn a blind eye to it the same way people turned a blind eye to it when it was happening to only women.

 

[Zombine]

I think it would probably be for the best if all characters from this point forward wore bikini battle armor.

 

[Ratrat]

In fact. There really aren't many ugly or out of shape male characters in gaming. Not outside of cartoon-style characters like Mario. Realistic games always have a good looking guy.

There are a ton. GTA, Max Payne, MGS4, Kayne and Lynch, God of War, Gears, Last of Us, Lord of The Fallen etc. And when they are younger they tend to be plain every man types.
On the other hand, look at Vaan, Raiden and this guy. Actual attempts at catering to someone other than straight men and they get shat on vehemently.

 

[Flappy]

There are a ton. GTA, Max Payne, MGS4, Kayne and Lynch, God of War, Gears, Last of Us, Lord of The Fallen etc. And when they are younger they tend to be plain every man types.

Nearly all of those characters have erotic fan art. Especially Kratos, Joel, Snake, and Gears characters.

Trust me. Google them.

 

[Ratrat]

Nearly all of those characters have erotic fan art. Especially Kratos, Joel, Snake, and Gears characters.

Trust me. Google them.

So does Sonic and Homer Simpson. Trust me.

 

[Flappy]

So does Sonic and Homer Simpson. Trust me.

See. Sexualised male characters exist and it's not an issue to most of us.

 

[captainpat]

See. Sexualised male characters exist and it's not an issue to most of us.

Cause it's ridiculously easy to avoid unlike Sexualised females

 

[Ratrat]

See. Sexualised male characters exist and it's not an issue to most of us.

Duh. And good for you.

 

[gbrewski]

That guy is covering way too much of his body and his genital bulge is way too small for that to be considered remotely analogous to bikini armor.

Incredible that people are up in arms about this, of all things.

 

[boiled goose]

Currently. In the past few years, the same techniques used against men as they were used against women. It's not a senseless rant, it's just not true that thinking that only women can be objectified or made to feel they must be a certain way. I'm just making the point, everyone is being played this way, it's no longer just a female issue and we shouldn't turn a blind eye to it the same way people turned a blind eye to it when it was happening to only women.

Again I agree it is increasingly becoming an issue for men, but we both agree it is still not the same, right?

Given history, my point is I'm not sure it can ever be.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

FF11 and 14 has always given gender equality with armor designs.

BEHOLD THE GLORY OF THE SUBLIGAR





best ever. I remember running around like that in 11 punching shit. Good times.

Dam you subligar! Years of seeing that itched into my brain

 

[spekkeh]

Yes and no. Yes it's kind of hypocritical that those people accept sexed up women's clothing but not men's. No, because we live in a culture where women dress up in ways that accentuate and increase titillation; cleavage, bare bellies, high heels, skinny jeans. Much less so with men (suits have shoulder pads but not many men still wear those). Not that many internetters were complaining about Monkey even though he's not even titillating but completely naked from the waist up. He's shirtless, it's accepted.

I also don't (really) believe in that it's purely a cultural thing that needs combating. Women are the fairer sex because their bodies have inefficient attractive features that men don't; as such it's logical this expresses itself in clothing.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

There are a ton. GTA, Max Payne, MGS4, Kayne and Lynch, God of War, Gears, Last of Us, Lord of The Fallen etc. And when they are younger they tend to be plain every man types.
On the other hand, look at Vaan, Raiden and this guy. Actual attempts at catering to someone other than straight men and they get shat on vehemently.

Funny you mentioned Raiden considering that him becoming a cyborg was because fans thought he was too pretty. Although compared to Snake he was a pretty dense character for the first half of MGS2 which didn't help his popularity when he was introduced.

Is it?

Well there is JoJo.

I agree it's not the majority but it exists if you look hard enough.

 

[RawNuts]

Sexy dude, but that armor looks stupid as hell. I've always found a lot of Final Fantasy designs to be eccentric, but expected from a fantasy RPG; at least they tend to be creative rather than not risking anything, so I have to applaud them on that account.

 

[boiled goose]

Funny you mentioned Raiden considering that him becoming a cyborg was because fans thought he was too pretty. Although compared to Snake he was a pretty dense character for the first half of MGS2 which didn't help his popularity when he was introduced.



Well there is JoJo.

I agree it's not the majority but it exists if you look hard enough.

Who is that supposed to appeal to? I'm genuinely curious.