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[MrGame&Watch]

These discussions are always sad. It's pretty clear that people can be terrible on any side of a conflict. It always seems that people use horrible stories like these to justify their worldview instead of trying to come to a real understanding of an issue from all sides.

The conflict is a product of decades of war, death, and mistrust that can be attributed to different actors on both sides. These aren't monolithic groups. Both sides have had bad people, and both sides can claim to being in the right based on bad acts made by bad people on the other side.

tl;dr
Stop with the generalized Israeli is evil rabble rabble or the Palestinians are all terrorists rabble rabble and try hard both sides.

 

[Jonm1010]

Are you accusing him of being a JIDF? What is this, 4chan level of fucking bullshit? At least he has made more things for this thread then what you have done.

Wait wait wait, so if a guy is spamming copy and pasted propaganda from a facebook page you are completely chill with that?

That's considered making content for you?

 

[Lamel]

I'm pretty convinced that Israeli's that have a defense for this sort of action are brainwashed into feeling overly persecuted all the time.

 

[Unhandled Exception]

Wait wait wait, so if a guy is spamming copy and pasted propaganda from a facebook page you are completely chill with that?

That's considered making content for you?

Hey, at least he put effort into his bullshit! What have you typed into facebook lately?

 

[Quotient]

When are we going to finally apply sanctions on Israel? That's really the only thing that could get them to negotiate with the Palestinians in good faith and to stop their heavy handed tactics. Right now there is literally no pressure, no incentive, for Israel to stop building settlements in the West Bank and killing or displacing Palestinians. If nobody in the West does anything to change Israel's geopolitical calculus, they're just going to keep doing what they're doing until there is no Palestine left to become a state and there's a solid Jewish demographic majority in both Israel and Palestine. That's been the government's goal for decades.

The Palestinian leadership do not want what a state. They want Israel wiped off the map. They have had a lot of reasonable plans that they turned down.

The Palestinian situation is a depressing one, they are crushed between Israel and their own stupid palestinian leadership, and worse of all are treated as second class citizens by their own Arab neighbours.

Their is some truth to the media having a Palestinian bias, I lived in Israel for a few years and I remember their would be rocket fire daily from the West Bank into Israel that the media would never mention, yet when Israel would respond it was reported as Israeli aggression. Israel are not innocent in this conflict, but the Palestinian leadership and military groups are far from righteous either.

 

[RustyNails]

The Palestinian leadership do want what a state. They want Israel wiped off the map. They have had a lot of reasonable plans that they turned down.

The Palestinian situation is a depressing one, they are crushed between Israel and their own stupid palestinian leadership, and worse of all are treated as second class citizens by their own Arab neighbours.

Their is some truth to the media having a Palestinian bias, I lived in Israel for a few years and I remember their would be rocket fire daily from the West Bank into Israel that the media would never mention, yet when Israel would respond it was reported as Israeli aggression. Israel are not innocent in this conflict, but the Palestinian leadership and military groups are far from righteous either.

...these people are real

 

[Quotient]

...these people are real

My apologies that should have said: "The Palestinian leadership do not want what a state. They want Israel wiped off the map."

There is also a lot of media bias towards Israel, no doubt. My point being a lot happens leading up to these confrontations that aren't reported by the media.

 

[Katsa]

LOL, yeah...ok.

So what was this kid doing prior to being detained by the Israelis? It's easy to just post a few seconds worth of video and assume the worst. I'm sure there's more to the story than just an "innocent" teen being beaten.

 

[Partial Gamification]

My apologies that should have said: "The Palestinian leadership do not want what a state. They want Israel wiped off the map."

There is also a lot of media bias towards Israel, no doubt. My point being a lot happens leading up to these confrontations that aren't reported by the media.

I think the Palestinian leadership has trouble recognizing Israel as a Jewish State.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas signaled on Saturday that he remains committed to troubled U.S.-backed peace talks, saying that any unity government including Hamas would recognize Israel as a Jewish state — a major sticking point in negations.

Abbas' comments come shortly after Israel suspended negotiations following the signing of a unity agreement between rival Palestinian political factions.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/26/palestinians-continuetalks.html

The thing about this conflict is that at both the start and end of the day, Israel has the upper hand.

 

[truly101]

Impossible. US Congress is AIPAC prostitutes first and foremost.

NPR did a piece on this about a year or so ago. The number of pro Israeli lobbying firms is incredibly large and influential.

There is also general ignorance and lack of sympathy from the average American populace. Most of them do not know how the current State of Israel came to be, how the Palestinians were pushed out and now occupied to two small areas. Ever since 1979, the Islamic middle east had been seen by the west as a malcontents, crazies and rabble rousers, and post 9/11 I think a lot of Americans would be happy if they all just went away, and they probably deserve whatever happens to them.

Also God had to put the oil there and how is the US going to exploit it without having a regional ally to help blow people up?

There is no pro Palestinian media bias in the US......at all. Not at all.

 

[collige]

Barbaric. If these practices are real, the UN needs to go in and investigate/condemn Israel for human rights violations

They should've been condemned last year when word got out that they were forcibly sterilizing Ethiopian immigrants.

 

[nib95]

The side to it that most of the world doesn't see is a detailed perspective of what fuel's the tensions and clashes in the first place.

Here's some official reports from The UN of occurrences in Palestine over the last few months and years. They release these weekly and it's been the same story for years and years. You can see Israel has been systematically driving Palestinians out of their homes to make way for further illegal settlements on a weekly basis, displacing hundreds, leading to countless deaths and hundreds of injuries.

There is also a consistent and massively disproportionate level of violence and vandalism aimed at Palestinians and their land, from Israeli settlers comparative to the same inflicted on Israeli settlements from Palestinians.

http://www.ochaopt.org/reports.aspx?id=104

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 17 - 23 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_26_english.pdf

4 Palestinians killed.
100 Palestinians injured.
340 Palestinians arrested.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
42 Palestinians displaced this week.
Multiple Palestinian charitable organisations closed.

Additionally, a total of 106 Palestinians, including 28 children, were injured during the clashes, including by rubber-coated metal bullets (37) and live ammunition (18), or treated due to physical assault (30) or tear gas inhalation (20) or after being hit by a tear gas canister (1). Over half the injuries occurred in clashes, mostly at night, which took place in refugee camps:

The main affected association was Hebron’s Islamic Charitable Organization. On 20 June, Israeli forces raided the headquarters of the organization, confiscated equipment, sealed the main door and affixed on it a closure order in force through the end of 2014. Three of the organization’s branches in the Hebron governorate (Ash Shyyoukh, Bani Naim and Beit Ula) were also raided. The organization employs 680 staff and provides assistance to some 6,000 beneficiaries, including in the areas of education, food, shelter, and social safety nets for poor families.

Other affected Islamic associations, which were raided and had equipment confiscated, included the Muslim Youth Association (Hebron), which runs 12 schools across the Hebron governorate (3,500 students), the Medical Islamic Relief, in Jenin, the Zakat charitable society in Tulkarm, and a small charitable society and women’s association in East Jerusalem; the latter two were also shut down.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 10 - 16 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_19_english.pdf

1 Palestinian killed.
72 Palestinians injured.
200 Palestinians arrested.
3 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
Movement restrictions to Palestinian supplies, markets and work places.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 3 - 9 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_13_english.pdf

33 Palestinians injured.
5 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
35 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 27 May - 2 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_06_english.pdf

1 Palestinian Killed
84 Palestinians injured.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
100 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 20 - 26 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_30_english.pdf

22 Palestinians injured.
100 Palestinians arrested.
Over 100 people displaced by demolitions to make way for military trainings in the Jordan Valley.
40 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
70 Palestinians displaced.

Also this week, the Spokesperson for the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights stated that according to the initial findings of an investigation it carried out, the killing of two Palestinian boys in a demonstration near Jerusalem by Israeli forces last week, “may amount to extrajudicial executions under human rights law as well as willful killings under international humanitarian law”.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 13 - 19 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_22_english.pdf

2 Palestinian boys killed
64 Palestinians injured.
Wave of demolitions and displacement in and around the e1 area, east of Jerusalem
20 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
40 Palestinians displaced.

This area, which includes 18 residential sites (2,800 people), has been identified as a priority for the implementation of an official Israeli plan to “relocate” most Bedouin communities across Area C to a limited number of sites. Most of this area has been allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements, including the E1 plan, as well as planned to be surrounded by the Barrier around Ma’ale Adumim settlement. The UN Secretary General has previously expressed concern that the implementation of these “relocation” plans may amount to forcible transfer, in contravention of international law.

Also this week, on 18 May, Israeli forces dismantled and confiscated three donor-funded residential tents, along with a cement mixer, in Tell al Khashabah Bedouin community in Nablus, displacing 27 people, including 18 children, for the third time in three weeks. The tents were provided in response to last week’s demolitions. Stop-work orders were issued against two structures in the same community, as well as against 15 residential structures, eight of which were provided by an international donor, and eight animal shelters in Khirbet Ghuwein al Fauqa (Hebron).

Also in Hebron, in an Area C section of Idhna town, Israeli forces tore down and removed six electricity poles supplying 15 households, on the grounds that they were installed without permits.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 6 - 12 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_15_english.pdf

43 Palestinians injured.
11 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
27 Palestinians displaced.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 29 April - 5 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_08_english.pdf

42 Palestinians injured.
Over 180 Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers
21 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
39 Palestinians displaced.

This week, the Israeli authorities demolished 21 Palestinian-owned structures in Area C and two others in East Jerusalem, displacing 39 people, including 23 children, and affecting 20 others.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 15 - 28 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_17_english.pdf

110 Palestinians injured (24 children).
Hundreds of Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers.
Palestinian families at imminent risk of forcible transfer.
Iissuance of eviction and demolition orders continue.

On 28 April, the Israeli authorities handed over eviction orders to three Palestinian families, comprising 29 people, including 18 children, in the Sateh al Bahr Bedouin community (Jericho). Additional families in the same community might be at similar risk, since a fourth eviction order, which contains no names, was also delivered to the community.

The orders were issued on grounds that the community reportedly exists in an area designated as a “closed military zone”. According to residents, Sateh al Bahr community has existed in its current location since the early 1970s. It includes 12 households, comprising 68 people, of whom 39 are children. The recent developments take place in the context of an Israeli plan to “relocate” most Bedouin communities across Area C of the West Bank to a limited number of sites. This plan will apply to the affected community, along with 18 communities (2,800 people) located in the eastern Jerusalem Governorate, in an area allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 8 - 14 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_16_english.pdf

94 Palestinians injured.
15 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
43 Palestinians displaced.

the east of Jerusalem at risk of forced displacement due to an official ‘relocation plan’ advanced by the Israeli authorities. This area has been allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements.

There are at least 200 donor-funded structures, including residential caravans, in theJerusalem area, with either stop-work or demolition orders, with an estimated cost exceeding 1 million shekels

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 1 - 7 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_10_english.pdf

52 Palestinians injured.
Hundreds of Palestinian-owned olive trees damaged by Israeli settlers.
50 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
93 Palestinians displaced.

During this week Israeli forces demolished a total of 50 structures. The demolitions led to the displacement of 93 people, half of whom were children, and affected 118 others.

Over half of this week’s demolitions took place on 1 April in the Jordan Valley, affecting the herding communities of Humsa al Buqai’a (14 structures), Al Ja’wana (13), Jiftlik/Abu al ‘Ajaj (2) and Husma al Basaliya (1). These demolitions bring the total number of structures demolished and people displaced in the Jordan Valley since the beginning of the year to over 130 and 250, respectively.

---

And this occurs week in week out, irrespective of any action from Hamas, or the actions of Palestinians. Ceasefire or not, periods of peace of not, the settlement expansion and the displacement of Palestinians continues.

 

[FelixOrion]

I just can't wrap my head around why Israel gets a free pass on shit, especially from the us. Fuck Israel. It's so frustrating to watch.

 

[BPoole]

G/A/F?

 

[Quotient]

I think the Palestinian leadership has trouble recognizing Israel as a Jewish State.


The thing about this conflict is that at both the start and end of the day, Israel has the upper hand.

The sticking point being that Hamas has explicitly called for the destruction of the Israel on many occasions. Its difficult to include someone in a peace plan if one of their primary tenets is your destruction.

Though Israel also have many a boneheaded leaders who have screwed peace plans too.

 

[KingK]

Impossible. US Congress is AIPAC prostitutes first and foremost.

edit:

We (the US) directly fund Israeli operations. Fat chance we'll ever sanction a damn thing.

Yeah, I know. It was more of a rhetorical question in frustration over the fact that an American teenager getting tortured by Israeli police isn't even enough for us to start to reconsider our stance on Israel.

The Palestinian leadership do not want what a state. They want Israel wiped off the map. They have had a lot of reasonable plans that they turned down.

The Palestinian situation is a depressing one, they are crushed between Israel and their own stupid palestinian leadership, and worse of all are treated as second class citizens by their own Arab neighbours.

Their is some truth to the media having a Palestinian bias, I lived in Israel for a few years and I remember their would be rocket fire daily from the West Bank into Israel that the media would never mention, yet when Israel would respond it was reported as Israeli aggression. Israel are not innocent in this conflict, but the Palestinian leadership and military groups are far from righteous either.

Eh, there are definitely elements on the Palestinian side that would want continuous warfare until Israel is eliminated, but I think someone like Abbas would be open to a peace deal that wasn't laughably one-sided. The problem is that unless someone is applying pressure on Israel's side, they have no incentive to propose anything that isn't laughably one-sided in favor of Israel. They have all the cards and all the power right now (which is obvious when the US is supposed to be considered a neutral party in negotiations). They are "winning," and until something, like international sanctions, happens to Israel to make them reconsider whether "winning" is worth it, they'll just keep on doing what they do.

There's no doubt that atrocities and terrorist attacks have been committed against Israel by Palestinians. Nothing excuses rocket attacks, or attacks of any kind on civilians by anyone. But in my view, when trying to end a conflict, the majority of the responsibility rests on the occupying faction who holds all of the power, resources, support, and leverage. It doesn't excuse Palestinians who resort to terrorism, but the fact is that no matter how much Palestinians want peace, there is literally no way for them to do so. Whereas Israel has the power to unilaterally resolve the (political) conflict for the most part if it was in their best interest.

 

[truly101]

The side to it that most of the world doesn't see a detailed perspective of is what fuel's the tensions and clashes in the first place.

Here's some official reports from The UN of occurrences in Palestine over the last few months (it's been the same story for years and years). You can see Israel has been systematically driving Palestinians out of their homes to make way for further illegal settlements on a weekly basis, displacing hundreds, leading to countless deaths and hundreds of injuries.

There is also a consistent and massively disproportionate level of violence and vandalism aimed at Palestinians and their land, from Israeli settlers comparative to the same inflicted on Israeli settlements from Palestinians.

http://www.ochaopt.org/reports.aspx?id=104

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 17 - 23 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_26_english.pdf

4 Palestinians killed.
100 Palestinians injured.
340 Palestinians arrested.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
42 Palestinians displaced this week.
Multiple Palestinian charitable organisations closed.





---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 10 - 16 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_19_english.pdf

1 Palestinians killed.
72 Palestinians injured.
200 Palestinians arrested.
3 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
Movement restrictions to Palestinian supplies, markets and work places.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 3 - 9 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_13_english.pdf

33 Palestinians injured.
5 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
35 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 27 May - 2 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_06_english.pdf

1 Palestinian Killed
84 Palestinians injured.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
100 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 20 - 26 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_30_english.pdf

22 Palestinians injured.
100 Palestinians arrested.
Over 100 people displaced by demolitions to make way for military trainings in the Jordan Valley.
40 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
70 Palestinians displaced.



---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 13 - 19 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_22_english.pdf

2 Palestinian boys killed
64 Palestinians injured.
Wave of demolitions and displacement in and around the e1 area, east of Jerusalem
20 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
40 Palestinians displaced.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 13 - 19 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_22_english.pdf

2 Palestinian boys killed
64 Palestinians injured.
Wave of demolitions and displacement in and around the e1 area, east of Jerusalem
20 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
40 Palestinians displaced.





---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 6 - 12 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_15_english.pdf

43 Palestinians injured.
11 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
27 Palestinians displaced.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 29 April - 5 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_08_english.pdf

42 Palestinians injured.
Over 180 Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers
21 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
39 Palestinians displaced.



---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 15 - 28 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_17_english.pdf

110 Palestinians injured (24 children).
Hundreds of Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers.
Paletinian families at imminent risk of forcible transfer.
Iissuance of eviction and demolition orders continue.



---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 8 - 14 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_16_english.pdf

94 Palestinians injured.
15 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
43 Palestinians displaced.





---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 1 - 7 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_10_english.pdf

52 Palestinians injured.
Hundreds of Palestinian-owned olive trees damaged by Israeli settlers.
50 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
93 Palestinians displaced.





---

And this occurs week in week out, irrespective of any action from Hamas, or the actions of Palestinians. Ceasefire or not, periods of peace of not, the settlement expansion and the displacement of Palestinians continues.

Our minister just came back from Israel and one of the Palestinian christians he has known for the better part of 20 years is losing his farmland, which has been in his family for centuries because of more illegal settlements. It shouldn't be allowed anywhere, but especially a supposed 21st century 1st world country.

 

[Chumly]

I love it when the media always posts when something happens to the 'Palestinians' but never post anything regarding Israelis. It's so biased it's funny.

It took the U.S. government over two weeks to condemn the kidnap and murder of the three Israeli youth. Under an hour to condemn the suspected murder and killing of the Palestinian youth, way before arrests were even made. By the way, regarding that case, arrests were made just today and the suspects and being investigated by the Shin Bet. It might indeed be three right-wing Israeli's fault (it was suspected for a long time that it was a murder by other Arabs, since the boy was gay and that isn't accepted in Arab society). Those Israelis they will be treated like any other terrorist if they are found guilty. But the point is, the media already treats it like it's a sure thing and sparked a shitload of a mess in the streets.

This past weekend the Israeli-Arabs inside Israel are out in the streets in East Jerusalem, northern and southern Israel, basically everywhere, causing havoc. Throwing stones, fireworks, explosive charges, molotov cocktails, etc. Shooting from guns as well. The arabs basically destroyed the Jerusalem electric train that connected southern Jerusalem and northern Jerusalem, by pouring cement on train's path that went through their neighborhoods, flaming entire stations and using chainsaws to destroy the electric towers. The damage is worth in the millions of dollars and will take over six months to fix.

The kid that was beaten up was part of six men who, as I described above, were throwing rocks and molotov cocktails on security forces. Not just that, but one of the six held a knives. It doesn't justify excessive force, but that kind of stuff happens, and it will be investigated (the P.M. has personally guaranteed it).

Lots of Israelis were hurt and still are during the current violent riots, which the Palestinians are already calling the third Intifada. Israeli-Arab representatives in the Knesset are already supporting the riot and are pissing a lot of people off. Not to mention, Hamas shot over 120 rockets to southern Israel, including to Be'er Shevam, the largest city in southern Israel, just this past weekend. Over 300,000 Israeli's are in bomb shelters and security rooms and can hardly leave to catch a break.

The latest development that you wont hear, is the horrifying murder of 17 yo Shelly Dadon that was stabbed 17 times, repeatedly. Today it was revealed that an Israeli-Arab was caught. He was a cab driver. Yet another murder of a Jewish person on account of...his/her Jewishness. Also today, during the riots, a Jewish person was badly injured after he was stabbed by anIsraeli-Arab in Akko (northern Israel).

But still, not a word in the media. The things you'll hear usually involve Israel's retaliation in the Gaza strip, etc. But you will never hear what actually led to those retaliations. You are all being mislead and lied to.

Regarding that picture that counts the death toll of "Israeli youth" and says it's just twenty. I can just point you to search "Black March, Israel" on Google and see that it's not true, and that's just one month to account for. So stop with the bullshit.

You have clearly shown that you don't know anything about US media with this post. As someone who actually watches/listens etc to US media its clearly pro Israeli. All our media ever does is excuse incident after incident from the Israelis.

I am curious where you are getting the notion that the media is somehow biased against Israeli because that has to be one hell of a propaganda machine to make people actually believe that farce.

 

[Partial Gamification]

The sticking point being that Hamas has explicitly called for the destruction of the Israel on many occasions. Its difficult to include someone in a peace plan if one of their primary tenets is your destruction.

Though Israel also have many a boneheaded leaders who have screwed peace plans too.

Well, Hamas seemed to be backtracking that rhetoric. The thing was that originally the PA was claimed by Israel to not completely represent the Palestinian people. Low and behold, once the unity organization was formed to further peace talks, now they can't be negotiate with because they are in bed with terrorists. These peace talks are nothing more than a series of non-starters and contradictory requirements. Its bullshit, and if Israel was honest about a peace process then I think they would have welcome the announcement that the PA recognizes the Jewish State of Israel. There comes a point where the peace process has to actually be invested in and Israel shy's away from that responsibility, under the cover of Palestinian rocket attacks and Iron Domes.

 

[Quotient]

Yeah, I know. It was more of a rhetorical question in frustration over the fact that an American teenager getting tortured by Israeli police isn't even enough for us to start to reconsider our stance on Israel.



Eh, there are definitely elements on the Palestinian side that would want continuous warfare until Israel is eliminated, but I think someone like Abbas would be open to a peace deal that wasn't laughably one-sided. The problem is that unless someone is applying pressure on Israel's side, they have no incentive to propose anything that isn't laughably one-sided in favor of Israel. They have all the cards and all the power right now (which is obvious when the US is supposed to be considered a neutral party in negotiations). They are "winning," and until something, like international sanctions, happens to Israel to make them reconsider whether "winning" is worth it, they'll just keep on doing what they do.

There's no doubt that atrocities and terrorist attacks have been committed against Israel by Palestinians. Nothing excuses rocket attacks, or attacks of any kind on civilians by anyone. But in my view, when trying to end a conflict, the majority of the responsibility rests on the occupying faction who holds all of the power, resources, support, and leverage. It doesn't excuse Palestinians who resort to terrorism, but the fact is that no matter how much Palestinians want peace, there is literally no way for them to do so. Whereas Israel has the power to unilaterally resolve the (political) conflict for the most part if it was in their best interest.

You make a great argument, but I'm not sure Israel can end the conflict when you have militant groups whose only tenet is the destruction of Israel.

 

[nib95]

Our minister just came back from Israel and one of the Palestinian christians he has known for the better part of 20 years is losing his farmland, which has been in his family for centuries because of more illegal settlements. It shouldn't be allowed anywhere, but especially a supposed 21st century 1st world country.

Right, and this is the root cause for the tensions, and even the continued existence and support of organisations like Hamas. The fact of the matter is, not only does this brutal occupation exist, along with the humanitarian and human rights crisis that come with it, but the illegal settlements and occupation is actually ever expanding.

In what world do people expect those who are consistently being displaced, their homes, livelihood and income destroyed, their families, friends, relatives scattered, arrested (without legal aid, proper rights or justice), injured, brutalised, or worse, even killed, to react? And these are things Palestinians deal with on a weekly basis, and have done for decades.

The UN reports are there for all to read. There's no propaganda or loose sources there, just hard, cold, and devastating facts.

 

[Jackpot]

Our minister just came back from Israel and one of the Palestinian christians he has known for the better part of 20 years is losing his farmland, which has been in his family for centuries because of more illegal settlements. It shouldn't be allowed anywhere, but especially a supposed 21st century 1st world country.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=839975

if you want more detail.

 

[RustyNails]

The side to it that most of the world doesn't see is a detailed perspective of is what fuel's the tensions and clashes in the first place.

Here's some official reports from The UN of occurrences in Palestine over the last few months and years. They release these weekly and it's been the same story for years and years. You can see Israel has been systematically driving Palestinians out of their homes to make way for further illegal settlements on a weekly basis, displacing hundreds, leading to countless deaths and hundreds of injuries.

There is also a consistent and massively disproportionate level of violence and vandalism aimed at Palestinians and their land, from Israeli settlers comparative to the same inflicted on Israeli settlements from Palestinians.

http://www.ochaopt.org/reports.aspx?id=104

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 17 - 23 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_26_english.pdf

4 Palestinians killed.
100 Palestinians injured.
340 Palestinians arrested.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
42 Palestinians displaced this week.
Multiple Palestinian charitable organisations closed.





---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 10 - 16 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_19_english.pdf

1 Palestinian killed.
72 Palestinians injured.
200 Palestinians arrested.
3 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
Movement restrictions to Palestinian supplies, markets and work places.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 3 - 9 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_13_english.pdf

33 Palestinians injured.
5 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
35 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 27 May - 2 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_06_english.pdf

1 Palestinian Killed
84 Palestinians injured.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
100 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 20 - 26 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_30_english.pdf

22 Palestinians injured.
100 Palestinians arrested.
Over 100 people displaced by demolitions to make way for military trainings in the Jordan Valley.
40 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
70 Palestinians displaced.



---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 13 - 19 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_22_english.pdf

2 Palestinian boys killed
64 Palestinians injured.
Wave of demolitions and displacement in and around the e1 area, east of Jerusalem
20 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
40 Palestinians displaced.





---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 6 - 12 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_15_english.pdf

43 Palestinians injured.
11 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
27 Palestinians displaced.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 29 April - 5 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_08_english.pdf

42 Palestinians injured.
Over 180 Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers
21 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
39 Palestinians displaced.



---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 15 - 28 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_17_english.pdf

110 Palestinians injured (24 children).
Hundreds of Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers.
Palestinian families at imminent risk of forcible transfer.
Iissuance of eviction and demolition orders continue.



---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 8 - 14 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_16_english.pdf

94 Palestinians injured.
15 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
43 Palestinians displaced.





---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 1 - 7 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_10_english.pdf

52 Palestinians injured.
Hundreds of Palestinian-owned olive trees damaged by Israeli settlers.
50 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
93 Palestinians displaced.





---

And this occurs week in week out, irrespective of any action from Hamas, or the actions of Palestinians. Ceasefire or not, periods of peace of not, the settlement expansion and the displacement of Palestinians continues.

soul this is how you research, not copy paste hasbara facebook bullshit.

 

[soul]

soul this is how you research, not copy paste hasbara facebook bullshit.

You are telling me not to copy/paste info when he just did the exact same thing? You are clearly biased and searching desperately for posts you agree with. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

 

[theignoramus]

Now to see how patriotic right-wing republicans really are. Do you support the beaten American or the foreign, heroic Israeli police force?

I dont want to paint all Republicans as bigots, but there is no shortage of card carrying republicans that have a problem with Arabs and Arab Americans. These sort of people would see him as a troublemaking "Arab", regardless of his American citizenship.

 

[nib95]

You are telling me not to copy/paste info when he just did the exact same thing? You are clearly biased and searching desperately for posts you agree with. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

Lol, there is no end to your baffling level of denial and illogical persecution complex.

Your links were loosely sourced with little context, mainly a barrage of Facebook images and so forth, tantamount to propaganda. My data was copied and pasted from official United Nations reports. And you believe it's biased because of its relevant and accurate heading, which was one of the key aspects to why the organisation was set up in the first place, to record data relating to the continued occupation of Palestinian territory by Israel.

 

[theignoramus]

Barbaric. If these practices are real, the UN needs to go in and investigate/condemn Israel for human rights violations

They did that already. Ever hear about the Goldstone report? The US veto ensures no toothy UN measure will ever be taken against Israel. In fact, the US has used its veto more times than any other Security Council member since the 70s, and most of the vetoes are about blocking some kind of resolution that demands Israel stop its illegal activities in the Occupied Territories.

It's really up to US and EU citizens to get their governments to stop giving Israel weapons and arms. The weapons transfers are not about Israeli self defense anymore, Israe's been the regional superpower since the 80s. The country could be cut off from American weapons right now and they would maintain overwhelming military superiority over every Middle Eastern country for the next 30-40 years.

 

[speculawyer]

I just can't wrap my head around why Israel gets a free pass on shit, especially from the us. Fuck Israel. It's so frustrating to watch.

Because Jews need to rule Israel and rebuild the temple in order to bring Jesus back.



Everytime I type something like that, I can't believe I'm typing something that is both real and straight out of an Indiana Jones movie.

 

[NullPointer]

Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

That bubble you live in is thick.

 

[speculawyer]

Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

What? So tell me what it should be called? Israeli territory? Israel?

 

[nib95]

New video of Tarek speaking moments after he was released on bail. The initial accused charges of him taking part in the violence were oddly never mentioned in court regarding his case, which reinforces the notion that it was just made up Israeli disinformation to try and justify the undue brutality. His father also says he witnessed the arrest and that his son had no part in the violence, as Tarek himself states in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g-0CD6PH4A

New TIME article on the developments.

http://time.com/2959642/israel-palestine-tariq-khdeir/

 

[Jonm1010]

Hey guys, remember that time the pro-Palestinian American press rallied around Helen Thomas when she made those statements about Israel and Zionism??

...This countries media is so in the tank for the Palestinians!!

 

[Vindicator]

Like already said, both sides aren't innocent. Propaganda on both sides, the truth is somewhere in between.
State and Religion seem to be quite tight together in Israel. I remember reading about how the Israeli ID card states jewish as nationality. Like there are only Jews and goys.

btw just read that other thread about the stupidity of the Empire/Dark Side in Star Wars...

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

It's really up to US and EU citizens to get their governments to stop giving Israel weapons and arms.

Deeply tied into our industrial complex. We have "Defense" contractors and/or lobbyists in virtually every district. Worse, Israel's unique capacity to beta test new weapons and surveillance technologies against an actual human populace is a major selling point for industry. The political incentives to maintain the status quo are inexorable. BDS is the only sane option at this point.

 

[NullPointer]

The initial accused charges of him taking part in the violence were oddly never mentioned in court regarding his case ...

Where are you seeing this?

I don't find it hard to believe, I just haven't seen that particular nugget in the coverage.

 

[CrunchyB]

Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

The denial is strong in this one.

 

[jwk94]

Saw this in cnn earlier today.

 

[nib95]

Where are you seeing this?

I don't find it hard to believe, I just haven't seen that particular nugget in the coverage.

Read it in one of the articles I've read today, but I've read dozens from all over the place so I'm not sure exactly which mentioned it. I will try and find it. But apparently in court he wasn't actually charged with anything. Though that doesn't mean they couldn't bring forward charges later down the line.

EDIT: Sky News, Middle East reporter Tom Rayner made some mentions in his Tweets here.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...-teen-describes-savage-beating-israeli-police


Also Tariq's mother speaking in these videos (who was there with her son at court), mentions herself that no charges have presently been levied at Tariq by the Israeli courts.

Here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZ-ZcZD6t8

And here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXMEPgn32E

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

Has neogaf got an israeli defence force?

I've come to terms that there's a defense force for literally EVERYTHING here on NeoGAF.

 

[nib95]

New video's of Tariq speaking here.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...ir-speechless-beating-israeli-police-24442462

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb10Pp9ubTw

 

[Dryk]

You are telling me not to copy/paste info when he just did the exact same thing? You are clearly biased and searching desperately for posts you agree with. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

It's occupied territory according to the UNSC. If you want people to stop calling it that then stop occupying it. Failing that you could stop torpedoing international investigations and ignoring international court rulings.

 

[Atenhaus]

This shit makes me embarrassed to be a Jew. I can't stand Israel.

 

[dripdripsplash]

You are telling me not to copy/paste info when he just did the exact same thing? You are clearly biased and searching desperately for posts you agree with. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

Official United Nation links = "I'm not even bothering with it"

Is the UN anti-semitic too ?

Or maybe, gosh, take a deep breath soul, maybe... JUST MAYBE... Israel does bad things sometimes too!

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Is the UN anti-semitic too ?

I really don't think you wanna hear the answer to that one...

 

[Quotient]

These discussions are always sad. It's pretty clear that people can be terrible on any side of a conflict. It always seems that people use horrible stories like these to justify their worldview instead of trying to come to a real understanding of an issue from all sides.

The conflict is a product of decades of war, death, and mistrust that can be attributed to different actors on both sides. These aren't monolithic groups. Both sides have had bad people, and both sides can claim to being in the right based on bad acts made by bad people on the other side.

tl;dr
Stop with the generalized Israeli is evil rabble rabble or the Palestinians are all terrorists rabble rabble and try hard both sides.

Perfect summation. As i mentioned before, i really do think the Palestinian people are the losers in this whole ordeal - stuck between Israel, Arab neighbors who put more value on stray dog than them, their own leadership who see them as pawns in their ideological war against Israel. Then you have Iran who in their ongoing cold war with the USA and Israel, are happy to arm and support the militants in Gaza and the West Bank.

 

[Dopus]

You are telling me not to copy/paste info when he just did the exact same thing? You are clearly biased and searching desperately for posts you agree with. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

Please tell me you're not serious...

 

[m_shortpants]

You are telling me not to copy/paste info when he just did the exact same thing? You are clearly biased and searching desperately for posts you agree with. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

You've got to be kidding me...

 

[dripdripsplash]

It is not only politics that is hindering peace. It is also the reality on the ground, and the continued humiliation of a whole people. People are trying to paint it as a regional cold war game that is keeping peace from coming but that is not the whole truth. The whole truth is that there are millions of people on the ground who is getting killed and humiliated every single day.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/10/israelandthepalestinians

Israeli police have evicted a disabled Palestinian man and his wife from their home of 52 years in a Palestinian district surrounded by settlers.

The eviction, which took place before dawn on Sunday, comes after years of litigation that culminated in an Israeli supreme court ruling in July ordering the couple out of the house....

Two Jewish groups began a legal process to reclaim ownership of the property and in 1972 the court gave control of the land to the heirs of two rabbis who appeared to be the 19th century owners.

The al-Kurd family say their Israeli lawyer made the agreement without their knowledge.

The couple became 'protected tenants', liable to pay rent to their new Israeli landlords but they refused on principle.

"Why should I pay rent for my own house?" said Fawzieh al-Kurd, 57, who sat yesterday by a tent on a patch of wasteland not far from her house. In 2001, several settlers began to occupy an outer part of the house and remain in place today – despite court orders to evict them.

As soon as the couple was evicted at 4am on Sunday, a group of Jewish settlers moved in. They remain there today while armed police officers and private security guards patrol the surrounding area where several settler families live.

"The Israeli government did what they wanted to do," said al-Kurd. "Because we are Palestinians they have to humiliate and insult us like this? Don't we deserve to live in peace on our land?"...

Video of the take-over as settlers take their belongings into the house, accompanied by private armed security and Israeli police forces. The 90 year old former inhabitant tries to no avail to get them out of her house.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlQf41CJjjc#t=85

 

[Chariot]

You are telling me not to copy/paste info when he just did the exact same thing? You are clearly biased and searching desperately for posts you agree with. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I do not trust any source that has a title header of "Occupied Palestinian Territory". Straight-up I know that info will be biased against Israel so I'm not even bothering with it.

Oh boy, I just read the post in your tag.

 

[Quotient]

snip]

I don't know what you are trying to prove. I could always post pictures of a school bus of children after a suicide bomber did his "thing".

Neither side are innocent. it is not a black and white scenario. Both side are responsible for some pretty reprehensible acts.