I believe them and at least they reacted quickly. I think in the current climate you need to be very aware if stuff like this. The Kekistan flag is not even that obscure. I actually saw a sticker if it today at a lantern and I live in Germany. These far right assholes spread their shit real wide.
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Bungie explains the Gauntlet Incident
- Thread starter Strakt
- Start date
It's lines and arrows and it isn't exactly the same. What about the poster in here joking about how have Bungie ended up with a white power first, Nazi lightning bolts and swords? (sorry, I contributed to that... joke)
I feel like we'll be taking the above crazy pills soon. We have a whole company, represented by it's CEO, devs, publisher, design team, coders and social media staff who've investigated and given this answer. But no, it's some sort of white supremacy cover up. Is this the reverse of ethics in journalism? We're going to do a hunt that clearly everything is lies and conspiracy and Bungie just need to have staff fired/get harassed into admitting white supremacy guilt?
Time to ask press sneak fuck to infiltrate Bungie and get a rogue coder who will clearly show the armour design dates stamp says July 2017 and Bungie are complicit in hiding, aiding and condoning white supremacy. Biggest gaming controversy busted!
Seriously? If we don't want 4chan and the trolls to further keep laughing at us getting this one wrong, do not start spreading widespread conspiracy theories and logic that would need a time machine.
Whooooa, buddy, cool it on the strawman. I'm talking about the "KEK" design on the armor and how it relates to the "Kekistan" flag and the dates of the armor creation not adding up with the actual flag's creation on 4chan. Let's back up off that slippery slope you're on and not get into a discussion about vaccines, autism, gamergate and shadowy coverups.
Audioboxer
Member
Explain why they'd do that? That is itself the beginning of a conspiracy theory. Instead of believing what is the most logical solution here along with the compelling evidence you want to believe something is amiss/wrong/shady. Lying is shady. Lying suggests coverup.
Sorry if that post came about as a bit snappy, but after a 20+ page topic asking for someone's head, and follow ups in here saying "we still just don't believe", it is getting a bit over the top.
So Bungie are reverse racist!
The design being similar is almost certainly a mere coincidence. And nothing in the OP says that the review took place in 2015 (only that that's when the design was initially created) so what you're saying about the review doesn't really add up, either.
The Elite
BOSS
The explanation had a better narrative flow than the first Destiny.
They should get their apology writer to write the next game.
Haha Biggie is an awesome cat name btw.
Kudos to Bungie for coming clean and taking the L in stride.
Um, no, the logical conclusion would be that they made a mistake on the date referenced, not that they're lying. I think it's time to remove the tinfoil hat, I'm not talking about or insinuating any sort of conspiracy theory here, I'm pointing out that there appears to be a mistake made in regards to the date given as it relates to the timeline of the flag's creation and how the "KEK" on the armor, along with the green motif, is seriously the exact same design of the "KEK" on the flag. Besides just looking at it with your own eyes, multiple users posted the design next to the flag in the prior thread. It's clear as day, man.
This is a very sensible post and I think you're right. Thank you for writing it, this is something I will definitely keep in mind the next time something like this happens.
This is another wise post that deserves to be highlighted. Thank you too!
I'm not complaining about 2004 Blizzard or 2015 Dontnod, or 2015 Bungie, or whatever other historical deflection you want to make.
I'm complaining about 2017 Bungie who released this game, with this content in it, last week. After Trump. After Pepe. After Kekistan. After Charlottesville.
If this shit was in Destiny 1, no biggie. But then is then and now is now.
2017 Bungie fucked up, and this PR arse covering is just that, arse covering. "Oh, we checked it, we checked it, honest! We missed this innocuous little symbol of White Supremacy used by Neo Nazi murderers, our bad!"
Is there anything Bungie could say to convince you that it was a coincidence?
Unrelated, but this whole thing reminds me of when Jeb was rolling out glazed terracotta in Minecraft. He explained how because of the axial symmetry of the patterns, he had to be super careful to not end up with swastika fodder. Of course as soon as the snapshot went out, people found patterns to make it anyway, so even with diligence, he got a little burned.
Spiritreaver
Member
Holy FUCK this thread went down some insane slippery slope rabbit hole.
Bungie did the right thing.
Even if it wasn't intentional, it could still be mistaken as such. This is done with all sorts of controversial symbolism.
Just because you didn't know a meaning changed, doesn't mean it didn't. It means you're ignorant. The flag was used at Charlottesville.
Learn some history. Coopting common and innocuous words, phrases, or symbols is what fascists do. It makes it easier to deny plausibility and claim people offended are "crazy" or... just like this thread, arguing about slippery slopes. "If THAT'S racist, what isn't??? The AIDS symbol when it's used?!" "Just asking questions."
Have some fucking nuance. Though I suspect this thread is mostly being trolled given that I recognize few from the big thread.
Bungie did the right thing.
Even if it wasn't intentional, it could still be mistaken as such. This is done with all sorts of controversial symbolism.
Just because you didn't know a meaning changed, doesn't mean it didn't. It means you're ignorant. The flag was used at Charlottesville.
Learn some history. Coopting common and innocuous words, phrases, or symbols is what fascists do. It makes it easier to deny plausibility and claim people offended are "crazy" or... just like this thread, arguing about slippery slopes. "If THAT'S racist, what isn't??? The AIDS symbol when it's used?!" "Just asking questions."
Have some fucking nuance. Though I suspect this thread is mostly being trolled given that I recognize few from the big thread.
Bungie says that they didnt reference the flag when they created the emblem. You're suggesting they did, so that would make them liars.
Miniature Kaiju
Member
It's pretty easy to stumble upon coincidental designs once you limit yourself to simple shapes like bars and chevrons, doubly so if you're working with axial and/or rotational symmetry and disregard shape weights and colors.
I work with art direction, doing review/vetting for any icons/logos with this kind of iconography is always a nightmare and almost invariably surfaces near twins.
I work with art direction, doing review/vetting for any icons/logos with this kind of iconography is always a nightmare and almost invariably surfaces near twins.
Wtf, how do you come to such a conclusion?
They're psychic, duh.
Weltall Zero
Member
Great post. I personally am satisfied with Bungie's explanation and I think anyone expecting more is simply looking for the proverbial pound of flesh. Fighting hate speech starts by not becoming so consumed by hate that you lose sight of what's reasonable.
As someone said, if this were true, someone would leak the story as BS and Bungie's brand would take a massive hit. They fired Marty O'Donnell, I refuse to believe they would protect some random artist and make this up, lol.
You realize that they probably didn't go over every single art asset again before releasing the game right? Most likely they have a repository where artists dump material into, that material was checked and accepted (in 2015) and no one ever looked at it again. The game just pulls files from a database. There are tens of thousands of gear variations in the game, they can't check every asset every month again to make sure if it has retroactively become a problem.
It wasn't in 2015.
"kek" existed before but wasn't associated with the nazi flag. The google trend for "kek" alone would be misleading because the word means "cake" in turkish.
Bloody hell at the 'alternative historians' in this thread.
I'm content with Bungie's explanation. Most 'liney' designs can be looked at another way to 'find' letters or symbols in them, and if it hadn't been for the green colour I don't think anyone would have raised an eyebrow.
I'm content with Bungie's explanation. Most 'liney' designs can be looked at another way to 'find' letters or symbols in them, and if it hadn't been for the green colour I don't think anyone would have raised an eyebrow.
Audioboxer
Member
Sometimes coincidences happen in life, it's not always a sign or related reasoning. As I satirised in the other topic, just because your toast pops with Jesus burnt into it, doesn't mean Jesus is sending you a message. Sometimes Occam's Razor comes into play and the cogs of the world just fall into place at the right time for an unfortunate coincidence.
No one knew white supremacists would create/co-opt Kekistan in 2017 prior to it happening.
You're on a gaming message board, you should have a rough idea of how games development works. A lot of what is in Destiny 2 will have been designed and made in the years prior to 2017. 2015 Bungie was making Destiny 2 then.
2017 Bungie apologised and patched it out, what more are you looking for? Why can't you accept that?
Weltall Zero
Member
Unfortunately, once someone is absolutely set on believing something (and assigning a probability of 100% is a dead giveaway), there is no evidence to the contrary that can turn them around.
Diablohead
Member
The lines for the E and the colour are fine to me, it's the K's before and after that scream copying the logo somewhat but I can agree with what bungie said about their design process, mistakes happen even if they can be rather bad ones like this.
martino
Member
What is funny is the authoritarian opinions and reactions toward thoses situations...
They are near as bad as racism imo.
Weltall Zero
Member
Okay then. They are convinced it was an accident. There is strong evidence supporting this, and no evidence to the contrary. Tell us what, exactly, do you want them to do.
Don't do this.
The zeal with which some have held onto their conclusion is definitely a point of self-reflection they might need to have, but no... it's not remotely close to the perils of racism that someone has their head up their backside.
Audioboxer
Member
Nah man, that's a bit far. A lot of people did have their hearts in the right place fighting this, but I think what I said above about hate should be a small nugget of info to remember. There is a lot of hate in the gaming industry, before you yourself go on a hateful tirade at someone/someone's job, make sure you are 100% in the right. Not I feel 100% in the right, actually 100% in the right. Otherwise, you can be left looking and feeling a little regretful about your comments.
As I said previously, the internet as a mobilized collective can get things done, but when the internet gets it wrong it can really get it wrong sometimes. It's okay to ask and question before joining a bandwagon, that doesn't always mean you're this "both sides" troll many people are quick to dish out at times. There was a genuine reason to be both sides here, and the proof speaks for itself.
CrunchyFrog
Member
It goes back further than that, at least in internet gaming culture. Back in the Starcraft 1 days, "kekekekekekekeke" was the Korean equivalent of "lolololololololol", and often this was shortened to "kek."
It's not the actual symbol, though, it just resembles part of the symbol. And even if we're working under the general assumption that it's unacceptable for that armour design to be in the game (which I don't think we are but that's besides the point), that won't change the simple fact that everyone makes mistakes from time to time. And sure, some mistakes are harder to forgive than others but you're really making molehills into mountains here. They missed something relatively minor, they were made aware of it, they've now fixed it.
Didn't know kek was adopted as a racist term. I am sure most who use still only know it as LOL or the frog man. Who i didn't even know was bad. No one I know or people I have seen ever post Pepe for anything but dumb memes and never about bad things really. Being ignorant of it I think ia more common
tkscz
Member
Because it's not difficult and completely common for two designs to look the same? Hell, until today, I and many people here have never seen that symbol before. It's completely possible and within reason to believe they are telling the truth. Someone made the symbol at Bungie in 2015, with those not being K, but instead being Chevrons.
adversarial
Member
My only exposure to "kek" is from WoW, when someone from the opposite faction walks up to you and says "lol", that's what it translates to. Isn't this where it originally came from?
Audioboxer
Member
They are, this image makes it clearer it's a > attached to |, if you look at the black borders. Not someone who's typed up a K. However yes, |< can still be interpreted as a k. Such as Rice |<rispies.
There's a picture of the chest armour here, which is surprisingly hard to find on the net (most sources are just using the image all the articles have used)
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
I've always used kek as lol because it's from World of Warcraft.
Hi Audioboxer, you were the individual I discussed this with the most in the previous thread. I want to formally acknowledge that you were correct about the basics of this issue. Our discussion was a little different, as we were mostly talking about what it means to be fired and what is fireable offense. That said, I considered it extremely unlikely that the design was made without intent.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
This is triggering my poe's law sensor.
People who identify as Chevron?
tkscz
Member
They are, this image makes it clearer it's a > attached to |, if you look at the black borders. Not someone who's typed up a K. However yes, |< can still be interpreted as a k. Such as Rice |<rispies.
There's a picture of the chest armour here, which is surprisingly hard to find on the net (most sources are just using the image all the articles have used)
So they really were Chevrons.
And I get why people would take offense to this, but making straight accusations like that is not a good thing to do. Most people who know Kek only see it as the WoW version of lol (though I always thought yelling BUR was funnier). This group of racist making a name and flag of it is relatively unknown by populous. So it's understandable that they took an old design and not see the resemblance of something they had no idea about. Just because you know about something, doesn't mean it's popular enough to know everyone knows.
Again, I can understand why they want it removed and I'm not arguing that. But attacking and making assumptions about an artist who very well may not have known about something that a small group knows about is not an ok thing to do.
eot
Banned
Finale Fireworker
Member
I understand that a company's primary interest is self-preservation and it is not obligated to be honest in a controversial situation. Corporate apologies often attempt to explain away a situation without a direct admission of fault because their singular intention is maintaining customers and for everyone to forget it even happened. A corporate entity has no emotion - contrition is not part of their business model - so the entire idea of corporate apologies is flimsy at best.
This is why we seek human accountability. This is why we want somebody fired, or exposed, or for action to be taken against the individuals that are to blame.
So I get why an explanation that doesn't lay the blame on a particular actor is suspect. It makes you think they're lying. It makes you think they're trying to protect their brand and their employee and they don't want to admit they were dumb enough to let a white supremacist vandalize their video game.
But here is the other end side of this: companies, especially in a business as ruthless and with such high turnover as video games, have no obligation to protect an employee. Whoever designed this probably doesn't even work at Bungie anymore. But if they did, Bungie has no reason to cover up their intentions and keep them discretely employed. Controversy is expensive. Firing someone is cheap. If they really believed there was a malicious intention behind the design, you can bet they would sack the designer immediately.
So for them to take an alternate route and say it was an accident and look like morons in the process tells me they're probably being honest. Because it would be much easier to say the person who designed the costume is no longer with Bungie and they do not represent the company. You probably recognize this line because this is what every company says when this stuff happens. They say this because this is the easiest and most cost-effective action.
Anybody who thinks Bungie is trying to be sneaky and protect their reputation should keep all of this in mind. There was a very easy way to handle this and they opted for a different course. They instead came forward, very quickly, with an explanation of their creative process and why their content team failed to catch the similarity.
Is it unsatisfying? Maybe. It's still hard to look at that armor and not connect it to an extremely similar image. But if that's what Bungie says happened, it's probably true. Because no company would do this instead of the easier, more obvious, and more common course of action of firing the person responsible and denouncing their beliefs.
The company has been clear since the news broke that this isn't something they wanted in their game. They were embarrassed and apologetic and took immediate action to rectify the situation. This has to be enough. This is exemplary behavior in a situation like this.
But if there was really a sneaky racist putting Nazi memes in their video games, we would know by now. For once in our post-capitalist Hell, a company has come forward and said they failed as an operation rather than blame an individual. This is exceedingly uncommon and we should reward it rather than refuse it.
This is why we seek human accountability. This is why we want somebody fired, or exposed, or for action to be taken against the individuals that are to blame.
So I get why an explanation that doesn't lay the blame on a particular actor is suspect. It makes you think they're lying. It makes you think they're trying to protect their brand and their employee and they don't want to admit they were dumb enough to let a white supremacist vandalize their video game.
But here is the other end side of this: companies, especially in a business as ruthless and with such high turnover as video games, have no obligation to protect an employee. Whoever designed this probably doesn't even work at Bungie anymore. But if they did, Bungie has no reason to cover up their intentions and keep them discretely employed. Controversy is expensive. Firing someone is cheap. If they really believed there was a malicious intention behind the design, you can bet they would sack the designer immediately.
So for them to take an alternate route and say it was an accident and look like morons in the process tells me they're probably being honest. Because it would be much easier to say the person who designed the costume is no longer with Bungie and they do not represent the company. You probably recognize this line because this is what every company says when this stuff happens. They say this because this is the easiest and most cost-effective action.
Anybody who thinks Bungie is trying to be sneaky and protect their reputation should keep all of this in mind. There was a very easy way to handle this and they opted for a different course. They instead came forward, very quickly, with an explanation of their creative process and why their content team failed to catch the similarity.
Is it unsatisfying? Maybe. It's still hard to look at that armor and not connect it to an extremely similar image. But if that's what Bungie says happened, it's probably true. Because no company would do this instead of the easier, more obvious, and more common course of action of firing the person responsible and denouncing their beliefs.
The company has been clear since the news broke that this isn't something they wanted in their game. They were embarrassed and apologetic and took immediate action to rectify the situation. This has to be enough. This is exemplary behavior in a situation like this.
But if there was really a sneaky racist putting Nazi memes in their video games, we would know by now. For once in our post-capitalist Hell, a company has come forward and said they failed as an operation rather than blame an individual. This is exceedingly uncommon and we should reward it rather than refuse it.
eot
Banned
1) They didn't copy the design (they are different)
2) The design uses very simple elements that can only be arranged in so many ways
3) People accidentally create the same thing independently of each other all the time, and with more complex things than this logo
Having a witch hunt trying to get people fired is ridiculous. People should know better by now.
It's basically cm punk logo.
Anyway I really don't think that everything in a game as huge as destiny 2 went through QA just in the last month before release, probably every asset, design and stuff like that had been checked by QA as soon as submitted more or less (I guess).
Mr. Phellps
Member
I had absolutely no idea KEK was now used by white supremacists until this whole controversy with the gauntlet. Until now, I only thought it was a WoW thing and a sometimes referenced internet meme.
The design never looked 100% identical to the KEK flag, but could be referencing it. Their explanation of the chevron shapes adds up, plus, they were only aware of the original meaning of "kek", so it was a case of a player going "Heh, this looks like 'kek'" wouldn't be a problem, originally, but it is now.
The bottom line here is that they addressed the issue while explaining the creation process of all their art, even culturally vetting submitted material, and sometimes things slip through. The design isn't similar enough to label the artist as a white supremacist. We don't know their intentions, Bungie certainly has a better grasp of who the person is than us, so, frankly, it's both pointless and damaging to make assumptions about their ideals.
The design never looked 100% identical to the KEK flag, but could be referencing it. Their explanation of the chevron shapes adds up, plus, they were only aware of the original meaning of "kek", so it was a case of a player going "Heh, this looks like 'kek'" wouldn't be a problem, originally, but it is now.
The bottom line here is that they addressed the issue while explaining the creation process of all their art, even culturally vetting submitted material, and sometimes things slip through. The design isn't similar enough to label the artist as a white supremacist. We don't know their intentions, Bungie certainly has a better grasp of who the person is than us, so, frankly, it's both pointless and damaging to make assumptions about their ideals.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
This is the part that really gets me. Similar designs happening independent of each other, especially when involving fairly simple design elements like in this case, is nowhere close to a rare occurrence. I doubt this is the biggest coincidence anyone here has seen this week, let alone ever.
NHarmonic.
Member
I can feel the alt right whiny cries from the distance, lol.
This was a nice, thoughtful explanation. Pretty cool of Bungie tbh.
This was a nice, thoughtful explanation. Pretty cool of Bungie tbh.
Vanguard771
Member
It feels like some the replies in this thread are bordering on McCarthyism.
I'm glad Bungie has chosen to be open about the situation and take a clear stance on the issue of racism.
I'm glad Bungie has chosen to be open about the situation and take a clear stance on the issue of racism.