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[JTCx]

I don't get that kind of vibe with the Xbox gamers. They appear more humbled and I think that's because they know their games aren't the end-all be-all.

Dont try to act all neutral.

But you know what? you right. Kinda like how Ass Creed is leading the industry with its animations. LOL

 

[polybius80]

If I put the former in a movie people would probably say it looks really bad and like a video game. If I put the latter one in a movie, people would probably say it's beautiful or say nothing as there would be nothing to complain about. "Orders of magnitude" is subjective and it's hard to quantify graphical improvement but I would argue that when you have something that you can probably pass off in an animated movie and something that's arguably noticeably from a video game then you have a significant gap in graphics quality.

(Also, I didn't cherry-pick these screenshots, I googled, Uncharted photo mode pics and picked screenshots where you could see faces as they are focal points and the more complex than objects and foliage; to help really see the difference)

the ambient light also play a big part in the scene and the house has a different light from other scenes you bring so if you want to compare scenes and cutscenes its a good idea to do it from the same place also you are using a scene with a depth of field, that is ok if cannot be replicated in gameplays as such effect may be omitted in gameplay because it get in the way of playing most of the time but the detail of the sofa and clothes is not that different in the same light conditions in pictures from the gameplay in the house scene


as for subjective, there a many part here that look like an animated movie and they are gameplay

"Orders of magnitude" is subjective

I am aware its being used as an expression but lets not pretend it doesnt mean a huge change when the reality of the comparison make it an incorrect use no matter how you put it together even if its not in a literal sense

orders of magnitude


Many pretentious writers have begun to use the expression “orders of magnitude” without understanding what it means. The concept derives from the scientific notation of very large numbers in which each order of magnitude is ten times the previous one. When the bacteria in a flask have multiplied from some hundreds to some thousands, it is very handy to say that their numbers have increased by an order of magnitude, and when they have increased to some millions, that their numbers have increased by four orders of magnitude.
Number language generally confuses people. Many seem to suppose that a 100% increase must be pretty much the same as an increase by an order of magnitude, but in fact such an increase represents merely a doubling of quantity. A “hundredfold increase” is even bigger: one hundred times as much. If you don’t have a firm grasp on such concepts, it’s best to avoid the expression altogether. After all, “Our audience is ten times as big now as when the show opened” makes the same point more clearly than “Our audience has increased by an order of magnitude.”
Compare with “quantum leap.”

orders of magnitude | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University

brians.wsu.edu

 

[VFXVeteran]

so, now there are "special" scenes

so first was "every cutscene" and "orders of magnitude different" and now there are "special" scenes

different games work different that is why I told you that you cant generalize how they work

gameplay is an ambiguous concept there is no definition of how much mechanics you put in gameplay, only that there should be some form of mechanics, that is because different games have different mechanics, in U4 you can move in the scene and there are physics that make your character stop that is gameplay as there are hiden geometry and code running to calculate collision and movement based on player input as well as reactions and bone movements in the model(and uncharted use very complex models), just as in parkour scenes or shooting scenes the scene also is smaller than others we dont know but there is no indication that more enabled mechanincs may affect performance there, they may affect what the scene is supposed to be as you wont be shooting enemies in that scene or climbing inside the house so its normal they restrict them(there is a part where you shoot with a toy gun) and the models are the same in other gameplay scenes too or at least they dont look "orders of magintude" lower, maybe you are confusing them with a lower LOD model, its common in games to display characters in the distance with simpler models and the engine interchange them with more complex models when they are closer to camera

It's not the mechanics that you are missing. It's the shaders, materials and lighting. That's what's expensive.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Maybe you should’ve checked your source before hand. Just a little friendly advice, especially carrying that custom tag.

I have no problem being wrong sometimes and checked. I'm not perfect nor expect to be.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I have no problem being wrong sometimes and checked. I'm not perfect nor expect to be.

That’s a good quality.

No one said you had to be perfect, but having that very tag and knowing that certain things you say do get sourced into news articles sometimes, it would be more commendable if one checked before they ran off assumptions that in fact, were wrong.

Just being open and honest with you. I think you can agree on that at least.

 

[VFXVeteran]

That’s a good quality.

No one said you had to be perfect, but having that very tag and knowing that certain things you say do get sourced into news articles sometimes, it would be more commendable if one checked before they ran off assumptions.

I see. Where am I being quoted in news articles though?

 

[DeepEnigma]

I see. Where am I being quoted in news articles though?

When you mentioned that you heard there were probably two SKUs a few months back, “a base model and a PS5Pro”, a few rumor articles popped up and sourced NeoGaf and your post from the Next Gen thread.

 

[polybius80]

It's not the mechanics that you are missing. It's the shaders, materials and lighting. That's what's expensive.

yes and they are also used in gameplay, and yes they are expensive, other games dont put that much detail in their gameplay and cutscenes I guess not every cutscene has orders of magnitude better graphics than its gameplay

 

[VFXVeteran]

yes and they are also used in gamepay, and yes they are expensive, other games dont put that much detail in their gameplay and cutscenes

There is no SSS in gameplay. There is in cutscenes.

 

[polybius80]

There is no SSS in gameplay. There is in cutscenes.

at this point its clear you have no idea what Uncharted 4 uses in gameplay and what doesnt

is it so difficult to accept that gameplay and cutscenes sometimes use the same effects and assets?

 

[jakinov]

the ambient light also play a big part in the scene and the house has a different light from other scenes you bring so if you want to compare scenes and cutscenes its a good idea to do it from the same place also you are using a scene with a depth of field, that is ok if cannot be replicated in gameplays as such effect may be omitted in gameplay because it get in the way of playing most of the time but the detail of the sofa and clothes is not that different in the same light conditions in pictures from the gameplay in the house scene


as for subjective, there a many part here that look like an animated movie and they are gameplay




I am aware its being used as an expression but lets not pretend it doesnt mean a huge change when the reality of the comparison make it an incorrect use no matter how you put it together even if its not in a literal sense

orders of magnitude | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University

brians.wsu.edu

Only point I was trying to make was that I think there's a fairly big difference between the cut-scenes and gameplay (and that's how I generally feel about most games) So. I don't think it matters if it's the same scene or not, so long as the game's game-play somewhat consistently and arguably significantly doesn't meet the same graphics quality and level of realism as the cut-scenes. For me, watching that video, the non cut-scenes look like game graphics to me, everything look more imperfect and less detailed. If you show'd a me who has never seen Uncharted before that, I'd probably think it's a game right away.

Your quote is from an article/book of a guy complaining about people not using it correctly in using quantifiable things as an example and not measuring something qualitative like the quality of video game graphics. Which again gets subjective as we can't objectively measure it. The term "exponential" also has a proper meaning but people use it a lot as well to just mean a big difference. And it's fairly socially acceptable to do so. If someone uses either terms I just assume they mean a lot/significant. I wouldn't dwell on it too much, I believe earlier on you use the word small or little; just assume he used the word large or big.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

There is no SSS in gameplay. There is in cutscenes.

I'm starting to have a hard time believing you're a VFX Veteran

 

[psorcerer]

and several textures and detailed normal maps missing entirely.

What's the problem with loading these on-demand with a fast ssd?

 

[polybius80]

Your quote is from an article/book of a guy complaining about people not using it correctly in using quantifiable things as an example and not measuring something qualitative like the quality of video game graphics. Which again gets subjective as we can't objectively measure it. The term "exponential" also has a proper meaning but people use it a lot as well to just mean a big difference. And it's fairly socially acceptable to do so. If someone uses either terms I just assume they mean a lot/significant. I wouldn't dwell on it too much, I believe earlier on you use the word small or little; just assume he used the word large or big.

english is not my first language so maybe its because a different culture but here if you use terms like "orders of magnitude" or "exponential" to talk about graphics someone will point you are exaggerating to the point of a lie unless you are comparing atari2600 to ps4 or something like that, if in english its not the case, is good to know, thank you

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Nothing Sony showed today looked like it was taking advantage of some crazy innovative never seen before SSD.

I expect every game, even the exclusives to run better on Series X hardware specs.

Where is the fun in agreeing with people on a gaming forum?

 

[LostDonkey]

Ive been watching the R&C video quite a few times now just due to how impressive it is t Digital Foundry said there is no evidence of LOD or texture pop in and I can see it in quite a few places.

 

[LarknThe4th]

One thing with people citing the Ratchet example, it seemed like the player had no control over when the transition to the rift happens and where they go, seemed like a rollercoaster ride with zero player agency

I would be much more impressed if Ratchet could summon a rift whenever he wanted and go wherever he wanted when in it

This might well be the games "secret weapon " though and may still be revealed as one of his guns so I'm gonna hold off on major criticism

 

[fighterman101]

Believe me, there is going to be a lot of sauce on that SSD when I'm through with it.

Edit:
I think the PS5 SSD will be impressive.

 

[RespawnX]

Ive been watching the R&C video quite a few times now just due to how impressive it is t Digital Foundry said there is no evidence of LOD or texture pop in and I can see it in quite a few places.

There are some minor pop ins and the transition screen is a loading screen, small one, but it's a loading screen. And now you can bash me, because im pretty sure that they don't load entire levels. They load stances were you move through on a defined path. They basically start to load the one assets in the moment the "portal" appears (culling out the environment). For a very short time you can see how assets load when the character enters the new "world". The game also uses strong but good motion blur and depth of field to hide the detail of objects further away. However, still very cool but not magic. On XsX you would see the "loading screen" a few seconds longer.

While Clank didn't seem to make use of RT the reflections on the floor could made use of it. Hard to tell as they only moved the camera horizontal, so harder to differ good screen space reflections from ray traced ones. If so, ray tracing was limited to some objects and environmental assets and not fully rendered. GT7 also showed in the garage that while they have reflections from objects, they don't reflect reflections in themselves. Path tracing in Minecraft is on a complete different level but geometry there is much easier to handle.

Which also suggests rather limited ray tracing properties. Interestingly, Digital Foundry didn't find evidence of VRS. Perhaps the rumours might be true after all that the PlayStation 5 has a stripped down feature set of RDNA 2. Actually, I'd be very surprised if that was the case ... that would put the console well behind the XsX, despite the 10.2 Teraflops on paper. Provided that Microsoft didn't have to cut back on features as well.

However, some really nice looking games and I'm really excited to play them.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

You didn't see Ratchet & Clanks changing from one environment to a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT one instantly without a hitch?

There were small hitches then you jumped into another almost cinematic quality area within a second or so--pretty next-gen to me.

 

[Kumomeme]

Nah. Those levels could be in RAM easily. It's not really complicated levels at all.

 

[Astral Dog]

By perfecting the secret sauce the beef wasn't well cooked and decorations weren't as polished, it remains to be seen if the diners take liking to the spicy sauce or prefer the more balanced plate on the restaurant next door

 

[MasterCornholio]

When you mentioned that you heard there were probably two SKUs a few months back, “a base model and a PS5Pro”, a few rumor articles popped up and sourced NeoGaf and your post from the Next Gen thread.

VFXVeteran

Just a bit of friendly advice. You don't want the mods here to think that your spreading false information on purpose. I asked them a while back what they would do with Insiders that do that and they told me it would end up in a straight up ban.

While we appreciate our insiders and developers sharing information with us I don't believe none of us will tolerate being mislead by them. Just make sure you double check your information before sharing.

 

[polybius80]

It goes both ways. XSX higher tflops doesn't negate PS5's SSD benefits.

On that note, I'm just going to make a more elaborate post, because apart from this cat and mouse game, I'm also genuinely curious.

Let's say we have a game that takes place outside of that wide open area in the UE5 demo.
PS5 and XSX.
When turning around as a player, the game has to load a lot of data to prevent pop-in and keep the graphical fidelity consistent.

PS5 can move twice as much data as XSX, so it can easily keep up and even outdo XSX.
So, logically speaking, to keep up with PS5, XSX has to either lower graphical fidelity (i.e. texture quality and whatnot), find a way to hide the extra loading of data, or suffer pop-in.

Then you'd have the difference in GPU, so XSX can run everything at a higher res, like native 4k vs 1440p on PS5, as well as implement better ray-tracing (which I assume will take out a chunk of XSX' poweradvantage).
And yes, that means that XSX performs better than PS5, but PS5 will be able to do stuff that XSX just can't.

Now, my understanding of hardware is limited, so feel free to correct me on this, but from everything I've read and heard so far (from Cerny, to devs, to discussions on gaf), this seems to be what seperates PS5 and XSX.
And this is what's going to be the result as devs learn of new ways to develop their games and make full use of the switch to SSDs.

Like I said, feel free to educate me on this if I'm missing something, would be appreciated actually.

4k vs 1440p is an exaggeration the theoretical speed difference is not that big

PS5
Pixel Rate 142.9 GPixel/s
Texture Rate 321.6 GTexel/s
FP16 (half) performance 20.58 TFLOPS (2:1)
FP32 (float) performance 10.29 TFLOPS
FP64 (double) performance 643.1 GFLOPS (1:16)

vs

XBSX
Pixel Rate 146.0 GPixel/s
Texture Rate 379.6 GTexel/s
FP16 (half) performance 24.29 TFLOPS (2:1)
FP32 (float) performance 12.15 TFLOPS
FP64 (double) performance 759.2 GFLOPS (1:16)


resolution can vary a lot per game depending what the game intends to use and how compex its, so if you read about a 1440p(on either console) game you can guess its because its using a very complicated process compared to other games that may run at higher res, same game should perform similar in both consoles with as much as 18% extra procesing in favour of XSX and 2:1 stream speed in favour of PS5 how that impact the game and make it different depends what it do and what improvement come to their API, more simpler game should be able to run in real 4k in both systems, also is good to understand that some(or most) games may use some form of upscaling technique which allows to render at lower resolution and still reconstruct a final 4k image very similar to a native 4k image o you will hear "native 4k" "dynamic resolution" and similar terms a lot

 

[namekuseijin]

multiplatform games won't make games like this Ratchet and Clank, that's for sure. They need to cope with xsex slower drive

 

[Pandor]

multiplatform games won't make games like this Ratchet and Clank, that's for sure. They need to cope with xsex slower drive

You mean slower PC SSDs and well, there are still hidden loading screens in ratchet and clank. It wasn’t that impressive.

 

[Psykodad]

Where the story is getting lost in how video games are made and how images are rendered.

Take God of War for example. There is a ton of time in that game you are simply doing nothing but running and thats deliberate because they wanted to make that game one long shot and make it feel like you are never hindered by technology. When in reality, the reason there is so much time of just doing nothing is because of that technology and its limits.

Games will forever be made with trying to predict what they player is going to do. Which translates storing things into RAM. Storing whatever you need into RAM so it can be accessed as quickly possible. But whenever the developer eaither guesses wrong or simply doesn't guess due to a plethora of different possibilities (running out of ram, lack of polish etc) is when things start to go wrong.

The ability to load assets much faster will help with this, but it will not eliminate having to guess what the player is doing.

Thanks for the reply. I already got most of it, but it was an interesting read.

The thing I want to highlight though, is the part I quoted.
I understand that devs have to predict what players do and store it in RAM, but from what I'm understanding, PS5 design pretty much solved this problem.

Going by this:


And this:


It seems that devs don't need to store predictions into RAM anymore and the entire issue you're referring to, isn't going to be much of an issue going forward, as PS5 SSD is designed to do all that automatically.

And as far as the actual rendering goes, we have already seen the outside world part of the UE5 demo (1440p/30fps) and R&C gameplay (native 4K/30fps) in action, so PS5 is capable enough to render all that data fast enough.

Again, maybe I'm still misunderstanding something, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Until you actually see side by side comparisons of how quickly XSX and PS5 move data and how fast things load, is there a point in discussing this?
Do we for sure know the end to end data throughput numbers or just the SSD speeds?

But that is the reason they made their brand new alt/troll accounts!
What do you want them to do with them instead?
Have decent constructive discussions instead of FUD spreading?
Tsk Tsk.. Shame on you!

 

[Elog]

I still believe many of you are chasing the wrong horse. While loading screens and the R&C transitions through portals are nice, the real value is in the amount of texture assets and the resolution of those assets displayed in real time on the screen. That was truly impressive in several titles Thursday night. Really looking forward to see more from both platforms to be able to compare that specific aspect.

 

[Psykodad]

I still believe many of you are chasing the wrong horse. While loading screens and the R&C transitions through portals are nice, the real value is in the amount of texture assets and the resolution of those assets displayed in real time on the screen. That was truly impressive in several titles Thursday night. Really looking forward to see more from both platforms to be able to compare that specific aspect.

Not only that, but also the animations and audio on top of it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

An advantage is still an advantage

...and? It seems like the term sore winner sometimes does indeed apply .

 

[turtlepowa]

I still believe many of you are chasing the wrong horse. While loading screens and the R&C transitions through portals are nice, the real value is in the amount of texture assets and the resolution of those assets displayed in real time on the screen. That was truly impressive in several titles Thursday night. Really looking forward to see more from both platforms to be able to compare that specific aspect.

Maybe for the eyes of an expert. I am a gamer for 30 years and i have not seen anything jaw-dropping. The problem with advantages that you have to explain to see is that they are no real advantage for the masses. 80% of the buyers are casuals that mostly can't even say if a game runs in 4k/fhd or with 30/60fps or even don't know what that is.

 

[Lethal01]

there are still hidden loading screens in ratchet and clank. It wasn’t that impressive.

Going from 20 second sequences to load slight changes in scenery to 1.5 seconds to load a totally different world is a massively impressive jump.
Just because you can imagine something in your head doesn't make reality unimpressive.

The unreal engine 5 demo doesn't stop being impressive because I can imagine a game that looks like real life, or a game that looks on the same technical level as a Disney movie.

 

[The_Mike]

Well, what makes you sure about this? Even assuming what you typed is true. As the gen progresses what prevents Sony or other devs from utilizing 5.5GB/s SSD on PS5? They have a decade to just do that.

This thread is just silly

Where's the money in spending extra man power, which equals spending more money, just to in theory get faster speed on one platform? It doesn't make them extra money or anything.

Really no reason for a company to take advantage of something only platform has.

That in mind, would be the case if Cerny wasn't full of buzz words,and actually told the truth.

 

[Psykodad]

Where's the money in spending extra man power, which equals spending more money, just to in theory get faster speed on one platform? It doesn't make them extra money or anything.

Really no reason for a company to take advantage of something only platform has.

That in mind, would be the case if Cerny wasn't full of buzz words,and actually told the truth.

Devs asked Sony for it and there's talk about how it's going to cut development time.

So this is just plain concern trolling.

 

[The_Mike]

Devs asked Sony for it and there's talk about how it's going to cut development time.

So this is just plain concern trolling.

So Sonys ssd cuts development time for PS5 and all other platforms? Wow that's truly secret sauce.

 

[Psykodad]

So Sonys ssd cuts development time for PS5 and all other platforms? Wow that's truly secret sauce.

SSDs in general, going by devs. So it goes for your precious XSX as well.

 

[The_Mike]

SSDs in general, going by devs. So it goes for your precious XSX as well.

Now this doesn't make sense. PS5 has exclusive tech that makes it easier to develop to, yet all platforms takes advantage of it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Now this doesn't make sense. PS5 has exclusive tech that makes it easier to develop to, yet all platforms takes advantage of it.

Raising the bar benefits all games and all gamers, but you know it is not like its usefulness stops at 2.4 GB/s . Let’s not be disingenuous here mate...

 

[BigLee74]

Yes, the game itself is not optimized, but for quick resume the game itself is only doing minimal work. The texture streaming issues you see once ingame are results of not being optimized for SSDs, the loading time during quick resume is not. But of course: Stating that the game is not optimized, and being vague that it is actually unrelated to the shown loading time, sounds a lot better.


Do you really think that quick resume works like that? Do you think they could offer it as an OS feature (working on all games), if it would work like that; normally loading your game and then restoring the game state you previously had? This would require so much effort from every single game that it would never work for all games.

When you suspend a game, it's current state in memory is dumped to the storage drive and when you resume it is read back into memory. This is how suspend/resume works on *all* devices. Windows does the same if you use hibernate. It does not try to manually reopen all your apps you had open in their last state.

Pick a better argument as you have your facts wrong.

That SoD demo was a load of a game from cold, showing both current xbox and XSX. It was intended to show how even the backwards compatible games are improved by just the SSD being there without anything else being done.

The quick resume demo was something different, where the guy hopped from game to game, with each one becoming playable in about 5 or 6 seconds. So that's 5 or 6 seconds to save the state of the first game then load the state of the second. That was impressive enough for me!

 

[Snake29]

I don't think so given the enormous amount of hype about the SSD's.

In my opinion, it's the Zen CPU's making the biggest difference. For instance, Dirt 5 will be 4k 120fps on XSX
As a console gamer, I have never played a game at 120fps and have no idea what that experience will feel like

Both consoles will have 120fps support in Dirt, but not at 4K.

 

[Psykodad]

Now this doesn't make sense. PS5 has exclusive tech that makes it easier to develop to, yet all platforms takes advantage of it.

You do realize that Sony's exclusive tech doesn't exclude benefits for all platforms due to SSDs, right?

Or are you that salty that PS5 can do certain stuff better than XSX despite having lower tflops?

 

[Trueblakjedi]

Here's the thing though, PS5 can do exactly the same as what you're saying with the 20+ wings, 20+breast, and 20+ legs in the same volume and still have space left over for gizzard and necks, and then add 20+ more of each.
Or add 20+ breast/wings/legs of ducks on top of the chicken parts.

I think this metaphor flew over your head so to speak. We already know the HW numbers for both. So software efficiency is all thats left.

It may turn out that they equalize, but we also know that bcpack is much more efficient for texture compression than Kraken and both kraken and BCPACK are HW features of their respective decompression silicon.

So far gt7 and ratchet and clank are letting your beliefs about your favorite system down. And they are first party games.

 

[Psykodad]

I think this metaphor flew over your head so to speak. We already know the HW numbers for both. So software efficiency is all thats left.

It may turn out that they equalize, but we also know that bcpack is much more efficient for texture compression than Kraken and both kraken and BCPACK are HW features of their respective decompression silicon.

So far gt7 and ratchet and clank are letting your beliefs about your favorite system down. And they are first party games.

What makes you say that I feel letdown by what Sony showed?
I'm one the gaffers saying there are massive improvements that PS4 can't handle.
That goes especially for R&C.

 

[Elog]

Maybe for the eyes of an expert. I am a gamer for 30 years and i have not seen anything jaw-dropping. The problem with advantages that you have to explain to see is that they are no real advantage for the masses. 80% of the buyers are casuals that mostly can't even say if a game runs in 4k/fhd or with 30/60fps or even don't know what that is.

Well my non-gamer wife saw immediately the graphical difference while watching the Playstation youtube trailers after the show so I do not believe you are correct to be honest.

 

[The_Mike]

You do realize that Sony's exclusive tech doesn't exclude benefits for all platforms due to SSDs, right?

Or are you that salty that PS5 can do certain stuff better than XSX despite having lower tflops?

Tell me how PS5 exclusive ssd can cut cost for a developer that develops for both platforms,if Sony is the only one supporting it.

 

[turtlepowa]

Well my non-gamer wife saw immediately the graphical difference while watching the Playstation youtube trailers after the show so I do not believe you are correct to be honest.

Very hard to believe to be honest.

 

[Psykodad]

You are all over the place with your explanations.
Whatever man. I care about neither console. Just having a laugh over sales speak that's all.

No, I'm not.
You're weasling your way out.

 

[bender]

Very hard to believe to be honest.

Rude. I'm sure he has a wife.

 

[Psykodad]

Tell me how PS5 exclusive ssd can cut cost for a developer that develops for both platforms,if Sony is the only one supporting it.

Dude, XSX has an SSD as well, right? And I assume they use similar tech to Sony.
Sony just came up with an SSD that outperforms the one in XSX, is all.

Unless XSX isn't comparable in any way, in which case I can see why you are so salty.
Is that what you're saying?