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Candid interview with Barney Frank on Sanders, Clinton, Obama, GOP, and Congress
- Thread starter Kyosaiga
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Trump, Cruz and Sanders getting the support they've got kinda shoots that argument full of holes.
Oh excuse me, your masters degree in tax speaks against anything i might say. I have a masters degree too friend, it isnt that special nowadays. Corruption is not a buzz word, its the name of the game. Money buys more influence than votes and its directly attri utable to the gridlock in our system. It isnt some illuminati conspiracy theory, its basic economics. People just rationalize it because theyre already emotionally invested in a candidate and dont want to see her in a bad light.
We are talking about politicians running for office, not the voting public... and they all have support on that front anyways, but obviously not as much as the establishment.
It's incredible right? Like I just have to imagine it's a cult of personality to come up with an argument like that. Completely incapable of admitting a flaw in their preferred candidate. He was "forced". So he is not uncompromisable? He can in fact bend? What does that make him? There's a word for it. Hypocrite
AntraxSuicide
Banned
More people should bring up his Brady Bill vote. Bernie fails his own purity test. Must be an NRA shill.
Even if this were true, which it isnt. You have no answers to any of the other criticisms about Clinton. She can flip flop all day long and its fine. But bernie compromises reluctantly on a bill and states as much at the time and that makes him as bad as someone who actively campaigned on and defended the bill for nearly twenty years after the fact? But Im the delusional one? Im the one who ignores facts? What a joke.
Crimson_Gold
Member
Your thoughts on the viability of Hillary's tax plan. Can it fund the programs she's currently campaigning on?
Just juxtapose his vote on the Amber Alert vs Clinton Crime Bill.
He didnt vote for one because he disagreed with the sentencing for repeat offenders, but it had the entire Amber Alert system within the bill.
He voted for the Crime Bill because he said it was held hostage with the violence vs women's act.
Why one and not the other? And he campaigns on the latter.
You are saying Bernie is the one with a cult of personality with all the "yass Queen" stuff around here? Lol. The fact of the matter remains, the Hillary support in GAF dwarfs the Bernie support. Either that or Bernie supporters just don't post in fear of persecution. Apparently wanting things like free health care is a damn near criminal offence, but in the end it shouldn't matter to me. I'm not even American... but I do like to consider myself a progressive, and as a progressive, I think our neighbors down south, despite all their blunders and failures, should get a leader like Bernie.
In all honesty, based on the selfish responses I see whenever Bernie''s tax plans are brought up, I realize America and Trump are the perfect fit, they really deserve each other. But my optimistic self thinks that America not only needs Bernie, but deserves him if only based on the virtues of the few.
Except he never took money from them. Whoops. I dont like his votes against the brady bill, but it was bad policy, not corruption.
You do understand that Republicans have control of the House, right? And that for Democrats to get anything done, they have to be able to get enough Republicans to see their side to get anything to pass, right? And that only happens when you work together and compromise. I don't understand why you choose this point to argue, not even Bernie Sanders denies the importance of working across the aisle.
I don't give a single fuck about Bernie's excuse for voting for the crime bills. It doesn't change the fact that he voted for him. Period. You cannot exonerate him while demonizing Hillary for legislation they both supported: Hillary with her words, Bernie with his vote. It's intellectually dishonest.
And you didn't answer my question. What does Hillary's vote for the Iraq War have to do with campaign finance corruption? Why does this make her corrupt? Where is the evidence that Hillary Clinton gained anything for voting for he Iraq War? I don't need to look up the military industrial complex, I know what it is. And it isn't an answer to the question I asked.
That is my argument. And the fact that you dont think its corrupt for money to buy influence over politicians because you took a class on government x amount of years ago speaks volumes about the limited utility ill gain from continuing this discussion.
Crimson_Gold
Member
Now no one is pure. You all need to vote for me. I've yet to get any money from any of them.
Seriously, this is news to me
AntraxSuicide
Banned
You know, I was trying to stay out of this. I really was. But you just kept pushing.
Why yes, q_q. Yes they are. And frankly, I'm surprised you can even move given how much your argumentative muscles must have atrophied by now. When even the people technically on your side in this thread aren't defending your (by the way, incredibly condescending) posts, maybe it's time to stop posting.
Why yes, q_q. Yes they are. And frankly, I'm surprised you can even move given how much your argumentative muscles must have atrophied by now. When even the people technically on your side in this thread aren't defending your (by the way, incredibly condescending) posts, maybe it's time to stop posting.
Bernie isn't running to be Emperor of the United States, he's running to be president. The office has its limits. If you've been following American politics at all in the last 6 years and truly believe that Bernie can achieve even half the things he's campaigning on without a Democratic majority in both houses of congress (even then it's a stretch), then you haven't been paying close enough attention. I'd personally rather see someone that can actually push legislation that will actually get passed and move America further to left even if she's bought and paid for. I'm not in love with Hillary not in the way I felt about Barack but I do believe she'll accomplish things. And she's actually providing support to the people who could be voting on legislation, you know the down ticket races in her party. President not Emperor.
They supported him by sending out flyers in support of him because they didnt like his opponent. He supported a bad policy sure, hit him for it. But he didnt take money from them, and he received a D minus rating from them in years to come. All facts you guys conveniently leave out. Also doesnt come close to any of the unanswered criticisms ive brought up of clinton.
Adding insults to actual arguments is not the same as dodgy one sentence responses, sorry. Also what does the support of other posters have to do with the actual things being discussed. I think you were right the first time. Should have stayed out of this.
Ive never argued that once. So now, not only are you dodging my criticisms, but youre coming back with strawman arguments.
Here's the thing though. None of those were actual rebuttals of their arguments. They were just vague implications of something something corruption, the world doesn't work the way you think it does, insult. By doing so, you do not bolster your confusing and nonspecific points, for which you foist the burden of disproving on your opponents rather than providing proof of your own (I'm sorry, I don't know how it works up in Canada, but in America, home of the Sanders you love, we like to use a little principle known as innocent until proven guilty), nor do you do so by implying, or flat out accusing of undereducation, only to dismiss those with equal levels of education in the thread (particularly in a relevant area, tax!) with a statement that a master's no longer makes you an authority on the issue. In that case, where do you get off dangling your own master's, which exists in an area we haven't heard of yet (hint: having a master's of psychology doesn't make you an expert on governing; see Ben Carson) over the heads of other posters? On a side note, on your comments of taking money making you dirty and beholden to the interests of those who gave you money, you mentioned that Bernie, after being swept into office with NRA funding, afterwards received a D- in grades. Would that fact alone not disprove the idea you so rampantly refer to of being beholden to the interests of those who fund your campaign? Or is the good Senator truly the chosen one, come to rid us all of evil and purge the sin of money by not donating towards down ticket races that he would need resolved in order to implement any of his actual policies?
Many in the far left (socialists and alike) are pro-gun ownership. So to try to frame that issue in terms of left or right is just wrong.
Sanders' stance on guns is perfectly in line with the rest of his leftist ideals.
I'm so sick of Hillary supporters lying about Bernie.
At least this election is only for a few more months.
Who lied about Bernie Sanders in this thread?
jack_package_200
Banned
All of this
More far left Americans are pro-gun control. Also the majority of the world which considers themselves more socialist (aka Europe that Bernie likes to compare us to) has much more stringent gun control laws. And most certainly do not have legislation that specifically gives immunity to gun manufactures.
To try to paint, pro-gun as a progressive policy point so that Bernie doesn't have a weak point is laughable, ESPECIALLY with the almost daily cycle of gun violence on parade in the media.
Whats more, D wasn't Bernie's highest score with the NRA, he scored as high as a C- in 2006. It seems Bernie's record on Gun control fluctuates based on the political climate.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Edit: Sigh. I'm not going to bother anymore with this discussion.
That's really sad. If you make an accusation like that, it's customary to back it up if challenged.
What's really sad is that people here have repeatedly tried to make it sound like Bernie is as bad as Trump, as is the case in almost every single one of these threads.
Bernie is not secretly right-wing no matter how many times people here seem to try and make him out to be.
Nobody has said that, what the hell is this? Are you sure you're not confusing him with Hillary?
Nobody is doing that.
People are pointing out that Bernie is inconsistent, imperfect, and not beyond criticism.
You know, a politician.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ding.
FTFY
Like I always say: Fuck the democratic party. It's a bourgeois party that doesn't really care about anything beyond elections and is pro status-quo.
Aaronology
Member
I'd like to see one post in this thread where this has happened.
I didn't say progressive, I said leftist.
"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary."-Karl Marx
The far-left is against gun control. So again, you are wrong to paint it as a left or right issue. You can't just define leftist as whatever you agree with.
So Bernie wants to campaign on that plateform? Where is it in his website dictating his plateform?
Why hasent he spoke about about this?
Oh this is just you using it as a shield for Bernie against Criticism as to rewrite what American Progressiveism is about?
I see.
I haven't seen anyone accuse him of being secretly right wing. Hell I think conversations about him are pretty tame. Pointing out someone's flaws and contradictions is healthy. Blind fanaticism is scary.
I think he has a history of tilting pretty bad when he gets a focused criticism thrown his way (like the Castro debate question) and if something relatively softball shook him and his supporters that hard, if the stars align and he gets the nomination the Republican attack ads will destroy him.
At least Clinton can take a punch, or in her case nearly a decade of them consistently.
I'm not rewriting American progressivism; you're equating American progressivism with leftism. Maybe stop using "left" as a catch-all term for progressive and "things I agree with".
I like Barney Frank, but he's directly involved with Hillary's campaign, so take his opinions with a grain of salt.
He's basically the clearest example of the Democratic party's cult-like disdain for the activist wing of their party. You see it here on GAF, you see it in editorials - equating Bernie Sanders supporters to the republican Tea Party. Ridiculous, but it sticks.
I think some posters here on GAF actually believe that the Democratic Party actually gives half a shit about progressive values - they really only listen to the American people when it's politically, and most of all financially expedient.
This is why you get so much FUD concerning Bernie's pro-gay policies and activism, his background in racial equality, etc. What this really is... is a distraction from how poorly the Democratic Party has historically adopted these progressive movements until they were super sure it was "safe".
He's basically the clearest example of the Democratic party's cult-like disdain for the activist wing of their party. You see it here on GAF, you see it in editorials - equating Bernie Sanders supporters to the republican Tea Party. Ridiculous, but it sticks.
I think some posters here on GAF actually believe that the Democratic Party actually gives half a shit about progressive values - they really only listen to the American people when it's politically, and most of all financially expedient.
This is why you get so much FUD concerning Bernie's pro-gay policies and activism, his background in racial equality, etc. What this really is... is a distraction from how poorly the Democratic Party has historically adopted these progressive movements until they were super sure it was "safe".
Democrats are literally the reason this entire country isn't a fucking shithole after the disaster of Reagan.
fuck outta here with that bullshit
That's probably the 1rst time I've ever seen anyone on the left saying they want people to have guns.
Have anything from a time were even radio existed?
I haven't seen anything from the left in Europe in the last 50 years about being lax on gun control.
Only the Hunter groups tend to like less gun control, unless you're talking about the Church of Marx I don't think that point is in any true today.
lol literally in back to back sentences you bemoaned the "tea party" comparison and then went straight into throwing-under-ideological-purity-bus mode
the comparison isn't valid because Bernie's support isn't even ideologically driven, it's cult-of-personality driven. the tea party was successful in its political goals (at the small price of potentially destroying the republican party); Bernie and his supporters won't even get that.
Holy shit. Shots fired.
MisterShine
Member
Well, he's been saying this sort of thing about Bernie since literally the 1990's. This isn't something new from him, Barney Frank literally doesn't like Bernie Sanders.
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