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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos

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Subpar Spatula said:
Having Tony break down in anger and sadness while understanding Bucky was mind controlled without him punching them would have been far more rewarding for the character.
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Unferstanding?

After he watched his mom have the life choked out of her?

I'm done on this point with you. You're determined to hate tony.

Subpar Spatula said:
Well, yeah, it's called character growth. Or did you want Tony to stay an egotistical douchebag?
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You don't grow in the seconds and minutes after watching your father's face punched in and your mother's neck destroyed.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Having Tony break down in anger and sadness while understanding Bucky was mind controlled without him punching them would have been far more rewarding for the character.
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You looking for a different character. Especially this Tony after all the shit he just went through and frankly put him self through
 
Kalentan said:
Yeah, maybe if your a third party that has no stakes in it, then yeah I can see which sides. But if your the person who had your parents murdered and you just watched it, your not going to see that clearly. No one would, outside maybe a machine.
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Acting violent isn't unreasonable. I would hope that not everyone would turn into a murdering rampager though.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Well, yeah, it's called character growth. Or did you want Tony to stay an egotistical douchebag?
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How would that character change be believable considering the events of the movie? The film wasn't leading up to that kind of arc for him. Tony's arc in the film isn't about him becoming a better person, it's about a man at the end of his rope with everything he loves being destroyed right in front of him.
 
demosthenes said:
Unferstanding?

After he watched his mom have the life choked out of her?

I'm done on this point with you. You're determined to hate tony.



You don't grow in the seconds and minutes after watching your father's face punched in and your mother's neck destroyed.
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I don't hate Tony, it could have been handled way better for the characters involved. Instead we get a note from Cap saying his bit which will make Tony feel better about the situation instead of coming to terms with it himself.

guek said:
How would that character change be believable considering the events of the movie? The film wasn't leading up to that kind of arc for him. Tony's arc in the film isn't about him becoming a better person, it's about a man at the end of his rope with everything he loves being destroyed right in front of him.
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And him learning to accept and deal with it without trying to kill Cap and Bucky is more rewarding. Heck, BP understands this better than Tony ever will.

What purpose to Tony's character does him trying to kill them achieve?
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Well, yeah, it's called character growth. Or did you want Tony to stay an egotistical douchebag?
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Tony Stark is and will always be a egotistical douche bag at his worse and that was at his worse. Even though he tries to cover it up. It still bubbles to the surface. Pepper would have told him just that.

His efforts to change are not good enough, it's still selfish in this story and he's projecting for half of this movie.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Tony could have freaked out in a way that wasn't ending in him murdering Cap and Bucky, ya know? Having Tony break down emotionally and let RDJ act would have been far more interesting and earned.
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You know how some people have things that automatically make them snap. Well in this case his parents deaths have been something that's been buried deep inside. He's been holding this huge emotional burden so when he saw the video he let loose.

Do you honestly expect Tony to just break down and not even attack the person that brutally murdered his parents, whether he was mind controlled or not? I'm willing to bet anyone would react the same.
 
orthodoxy1095 said:
I've gone over this in the thread before. I never said that he shouldn't be accountable or have people checking on him.

I simply wouldn't trust governments or ultra-national organizations to do it.
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If not governments who should it be? Only they are empowered by the people to make these decisions.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
And him learning to accept and deal with it without trying to kill Cap and Bucky is more rewarding than not. Heck, BP understands this better than Tony ever will.
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Hopefully he will but being upset that he didn't have that kind of instant development feels petty. Panther only came to terms with that lesson after hearing Zemo's motivations. That's why they made a point of showing him sheath his claws afterwards.
 
Both cap and iron man are morally compromised in this film which is why the conflict is cool. Tony is right that super heroes need checks to prevent them from leveling cities at will. But seeing war machine get injured and the reality of his parents death (with mini betrayal of cap for not telling him) sent him over the line. Not to mention the turmoil with pepper

Cap is always "right" bu he does defend Bucky instantly without any kind of due process. I think he did have some side info that they migh kill Bucky outright so I can understand this a bit, but why not share the knowledge with the rest of his team? In the end he trusts only his own judgement which pushes forward a lot of this conflict. And that judgement is fueled by his over trust of Bucky

I'm not sure I understood the villains plan. How did he know cap and iron man would follow him there? Or did he just want the video that he would take from there and show them at a later time?
 
guek said:
Hopefully he will but being upset that he didn't have that kind of instant development feels petty. Panther only came to terms with that lesson after hearing Zemo's motivations. That's why they made a point of showing him sheath his claws afterwards.
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How does it make it petty?
 
Matt said:
If not governments who should it be? Only they are empowered by the people to make these decisions.
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Where Bucky is now is the best place. Some idiot will want to use him in a regular setting. Wakanda does not need or want someone like him roaming around. So he made the right choice and the only choice.
 
orthodoxy1095 said:
No, but between the excuses of "he killed my parents" and "I had no control over my actions," I know whose side I'm taking.
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As a third party watching the whole thing occur, sure, but Tony's response is 100% believable in the moment. Most people would not act rationally after watching the brutal murder of their parents or weigh their own suffering vs that of the murderer.
 
Cabbagehead said:
Dude Tony Stark is douche going through the motions and he's on a mental and emotional roller coaster. This was his low point there was no seeing clearly.

He's a emotional guy by principle, he creates most of his suits on that fact.
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This right there is complete horseshit! I wonder where people come up with all this stuff despite the film seemingly showing that both characters had role reversal twice in the movie yet you still manage to find a way to put all the blame on Stark, its really reaching irritating levels now. Now I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but at least a balanced view of both characters actually makes for better read instead of this whole tonedeaf Steve is good Stark is bad nonesense
 
Afrodium said:
As a third party watching the whole thing occur, sure, but Tony's response is 100% believable in the moment. Most people would not act rationally after watching the brutal murder of their parents or weigh their own suffering vs that of the murderer.
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Most? I think all.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
What purpose to Tony's character does him trying to kill them achieve?
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It effectively undermines his mission as an Avenger, which was the whole point of Zemo's plan. The Avengers as heroes the world looks to as models for good is now completely destroyed. Steve is no longer Captain America or an Avenger, he's a vigilante and a fugitive. Tony has nothing left. Having Tony react the way you describe would give the movie a really disjointed and tonally offset ending. It would have been a million times more contrived to go with the happy ending with all the heroes making amends to fight Zemo.
 
I liked the fact that instead of just saying directly "we are no longer pals" or something cheesy like that, the movie showed the breaking of the friendship with something so subtle but so powerful at the same time that is stark asking cap to return his father's shield because "he doesn't deserve it"

Damn the russos are pretty awesome.
 
Cabbagehead said:
He's talking about MCU at its most political unbalanced. Governments in that universe are pretty shit and heavily push their agendas.
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I kept my wording generic to cover the MCU. If the gov'ts don't speak for the will of the people, what should they be replaced with? If they can't be replaced and are good enough to govern their people, why would they not be good enough to govern the Avengers?
Yes, there will be corruption but that should be rooted out on an individual basis. You don't dismiss the whole system for individual corruption.
 
Tosyn_88 said:
This right there is complete horseshit! I wonder where people come up with all this stuff despite the film seemingly showing that both characters had role reversal twice in the movie yet you still manage to find a way to put all the blame on Stark, its really reaching irritating levels now. Now I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but at least a balanced view of both characters actually makes for better read instead of this whole tonedeaf Steve is good Stark is bad nonesense
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Uh that's not even what i'm talking about here at all. Don't give a shit if Tony or Cap are bad or good. Fundamentally Tony is a douche everyone knows that but in this film compared to Steve, he's on a roller coaster ride of emotional turmoil and decision making. Cap is a self righteous asshole. I have no steak in picking sides both are flawed in their reasoning but at times also right.
 
I feel like a huge dick for laughing at War Machine when he got shot down instead of Falcon because of Vision's apparent boner for Wanda.

I was laughing hysterically in the movie theater.

Am I a bad person?
 
guek said:
It effectively undermines his mission as an Avenger, which was the whole point of Zemo's plan. The Avengers as heroes the world looks to as models for good is now completely destroyed. Steve is no longer Captain America or an Avenger, he's a vigilante and a fugitive. Tony has nothing left. Having Tony react the way you describe would give the movie a really disjointed and tonally offset ending. It would have been a million times more contrived to go with the happy ending with all the heroes making amends to fight Zemo.
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Zemo's mission was to destroy from within and not show the world they're bad people. You're actually making things up now. Zemo didn't make them vigilantes, the accords did and by convenience it allowed Zemo's plan to be more effective.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
And him learning to accept and deal with it without trying to kill Cap and Bucky is more rewarding. Heck, BP understands this better than Tony ever will.

What purpose to Tony's character does him trying to kill them achieve?
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It exposes a more relatable weakness to Tony as a character than he's ever had? Showing that Iron Man has his own Hulk-trigger isn't a fascinating side to his character? This is the first film since Iron Man 1 where I felt sympathetic to him and didn't view him as a complete sarcastic douche.
 
Valentus said:
I liked the fact that instead of just saying directly "we are no longer pals" or something cheesy like that, the movie showed the breaking of the friendship with something so subtle but so powerful at the same time that is stark asking cap to return his father's shield because "he doesn't deserve it"

Damn the russos are pretty awesome.
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I liked that too.

Also liked how rdj acted reading the letter at the end.
 
Man the lengths some of you will go to make Tony Stark the bad guy is amusing.

After watching the movie both Cap and Tony were wrong. Their heart in the right place, but the way both dealt with the ensuing problems caused a lot of the conflict.
 
I'd want oversight over the Avengers, but I don't want oversight from a committee formed from accords written rapidly and without some kind of input from the actual Avengers.

Can you imagine the backroom deals that will happen with whatever countries have control over the avengers? Or the stumping that would occur when a country won't help because another country has increased tariffs ?
 
SuperStiltzkin said:
It exposes a more relatable weakness to Tony as a character than he's ever had? Showing that Iron Man has his own Hulk-trigger isn't a fascinating side to his character? This is the first film since Iron Man 1 where I felt sympathetic to him and didn't view him as a complete sarcastic douche.
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Why was there a need for him to have this "Hulk-tigger"?
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Zemo's mission was to destroy from within and not show the world they're bad people. You're actually making things up now. Zemo didn't make them vigilantes, the accords did and by convenience it allowed Zemo's plan to be more effective.
Click to expand...

I didn't say Zemo was trying to make them vigilantes, I said that's what ultimately happened. Zemo wanted their fight to destroy the Avengers and that's what happened. What exactly did I make up there?
 
Asbel said:
I kept my wording generic to cover the MCU. If the gov'ts don't speak for the will of the people, what should they be replaced with? If they can't be replaced and are good enough to govern their people, why would they not be good enough to govern the Avengers?
Yes, there will be corruption but that should be rooted out on an individual basis. You don't dismiss the whole system for individual corruption.
Click to expand...
There's a reason that this law does not work at the end of the day. Though there are some comprises i believe. But again a good majority of the time, the will of the people is used in relation or in juxtaposition to them fucking up down the line or completely disregarding their own law or in act some type of grace period.

Have no doubts that many governments in the MCU wouldn't want their hands on how to make a winter solider.
 
guek said:
I didn't say Zemo was trying to make them vigilantes, I said that's what ultimately happened. Zemo wanted their fight to destroy the Avengers and that's what happened. What exactly did I make up there?
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You said "effectively undermines the mission of the Avengers, which was Zemo's plan". That wasn't his plan.
 
AquaWateria said:
I feel like a huge dick for laughing at War Machine when he got shot down instead of Falcon because of Vision's apparent boner for Wanda.

I was laughing hysterically in the movie theater.

Am I a bad person?
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LOL Not at all sir
It shows the power women have over everyone with a plunger between their legs. I mean even the Hulk cant resist the figure of a woman, all that uncontrolled green stuff suddenly becomes controlled. This may be a religious stretch but even in the Bible, some angels found women irresistible so
 
Fandangox said:
Man the lengths some of you will go to make Tony Stark the bad guy is amusing.

After watching the movie both Cap and Tony were wrong. Their heart in the right place, but the way both dealt with the ensuing problems caused a lot of the conflict.
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I learned a while back that some folks REALLY hate him lol..the reactions, while ridiculous to me, aren't at all surprising.
 
Opto said:
I'd want oversight over the Avengers, but I don't want oversight from a committee formed from accords written rapidly and without some kind of input from the actual Avengers.

Can you imagine the backroom deals that will happen with whatever countries have control over the avengers? Or the stumping that would occur when a country won't help because another country has increased tariffs ?
Click to expand...

The issue is there's no actual way to keep the Avengers in check beyond locking them up if they don't want to listen to orders.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Why was there a need for him to have this "Hulk-tigger"?
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So that he could behave in an irrational way? Why was there a need for Tony to be paranoid about safety? So he could make Ultron.

Is writing in service of moving the plot bad writing? Or is writing in service of fleshing out a character bad writing? Because I think Civil War does both.
 
SuperStiltzkin said:
So that he could behave in an irrational way? Why was there a need for Tony to be paranoid about safety? So he could make Ultron.

Is writing in service of moving the plot bad writing? Or is writing in service of fleshing out a character bad writing? Because I think Civil War does both.
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Tony already has an "irrational" way from his being overly to the absurd suspicious of others, or how just being a giant asshole in general is one irrational way.

He never needed a trigger, the trigger exists and will only exist to have that fight happen.
 
Asbel said:
I kept my wording generic to cover the MCU. If the gov'ts don't speak for the will of the people, what should they be replaced with? If they can't be replaced and are good enough to govern their people, why would they not be good enough to govern the Avengers?
Yes, there will be corruption but that should be rooted out on an individual basis. You don't dismiss the whole system for individual corruption.
Click to expand...
your not dealing with regular people tho these are living weapons remember what bucky said about the other hydra supersoldiers how they could topple governments in a matter of days

I don't know who should be in control but I wouldn't trust the government the temptation is too great
 
Subpar Spatula said:
Tony already has an "irrational" way from his being overly to the absurd suspicious of others, or how just being a giant asshole in general is one irrational way.

He never needed a trigger, the trigger exists and will only exist to have that fight happen.
Click to expand...

Most people in life have triggers. You may never see them, but everyone does. It's very naive to think otherwise.
 
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