To Establish him in the universe and to show Tony's hypocrisy when handling Wanda and Peter.
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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos
- Thread starter Son Of D
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To Establish him in the universe and to show Tony's hypocrisy when handling Wanda and Peter.
Okay, saw the movie yesterday and was enjoying it pretty damn well....until the "twist" near the end was revealed.
So someone can correct me if I misunderstood what went on. The evil Russian guy who orchestrated this whole ordeal, was pissed off because his wife, son and father were killed during the battle in Age of Ultron (I haven't seen that movie)? So, understandably (well, to some degree), he wants revenge on the Avengers, but he wants to have the Avengers fight among themselves as neither he nor many other outside forces could take them on. Okay, fine whatever.
So in order to accomplish this, he digs through lots of encrypted files that were released when Hydra infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D. in the Captain America 2, and finds out that Bucky was responsible for killing Tony's parents. He then does two things. First, he frames Bucky for the bombing at Vienna, and then goes on a hunt to find the remaining Winter Soldiers. After Bucky is found and captured, he somehow is able to infiltrate the government and pose as a psychiatrist to evaluate him (if this was explained, I might have missed it), and doesn't seem to be worried about getting caught with hundreds of security personnel around him.
Afterwards, he then lures Captain America, Bucky, Iron Man, and Black Panther to the Siberian fortress so that he could reveal the truth to Tony. Of course, the problem here is that there was no way he knew that Tony would be there (or any other Avenger besides Captain America). And if the ultimate goal was to enrage Tony to fight against Bucky and thus come into conflict with Captain America, why do it in such an immensely convoluted way? I'm just saying that this took way too many steps, with way too many risks, with no guarantee of everything working out as intended, when he could have just FedEx'd the tape to Tony's pad and called it a day.
And how did Captain America know that Bucky killed Tony's parents? When did that happen?
So someone can correct me if I misunderstood what went on. The evil Russian guy who orchestrated this whole ordeal, was pissed off because his wife, son and father were killed during the battle in Age of Ultron (I haven't seen that movie)? So, understandably (well, to some degree), he wants revenge on the Avengers, but he wants to have the Avengers fight among themselves as neither he nor many other outside forces could take them on. Okay, fine whatever.
So in order to accomplish this, he digs through lots of encrypted files that were released when Hydra infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D. in the Captain America 2, and finds out that Bucky was responsible for killing Tony's parents. He then does two things. First, he frames Bucky for the bombing at Vienna, and then goes on a hunt to find the remaining Winter Soldiers. After Bucky is found and captured, he somehow is able to infiltrate the government and pose as a psychiatrist to evaluate him (if this was explained, I might have missed it), and doesn't seem to be worried about getting caught with hundreds of security personnel around him.
Afterwards, he then lures Captain America, Bucky, Iron Man, and Black Panther to the Siberian fortress so that he could reveal the truth to Tony. Of course, the problem here is that there was no way he knew that Tony would be there (or any other Avenger besides Captain America). And if the ultimate goal was to enrage Tony to fight against Bucky and thus come into conflict with Captain America, why do it in such an immensely convoluted way? I'm just saying that this took way too many steps, with way too many risks, with no guarantee of everything working out as intended, when he could have just FedEx'd the tape to Tony's pad and called it a day.
And how did Captain America know that Bucky killed Tony's parents? When did that happen?
Tony is a dick is why. He needs people when Cap and others bail so he basically forces Spider-man to join. Only when he sees Spider-man after he gets beat up does he realize oh shit he is just a kid what was I doing.
Jest Chillin
Member
He does care about everyone but he's a soldier who understands that every person has the right to decide to put themselves on the line for what they believe. That's a core aspect of his personality. To refuse to let them help would be denying them the right to choose theirnown actions.
And Tony doesn't have a position to undercut. He funds The Avengers but was never the leader. In fact he only tries to stand as the leader when he feels his logic is infallible and everyone else just doesn't get it. That's the exact thing that lead to Ultron being created and is the reason why The Avengers get split in the first place. He leads like a shitty General standing a mile away from the battle and performs at his best when he takes orders while in the trenches. Cap is the opposite. But Cap was willing to step back and sign until he finds out that his worries are legitimate. Imprisoning Wanda was flat out wrong. She didn't even WANT to fight the accord even if she wasn't going to sign them immediately. Yet she must be imprisoned? It was bullshit. And in the end, even after beating Tony, giving up the Shield and walking away, Cap again compromises with Tony by saying The Avengers are yours and I won't mess with that but I'm not going to leave my friends behind AND if you need my help... My friends and I will answer your call, no questions asked.
Glass Rebel
Member
Zemo's aim was never to find the other Winter Soldiers. He wanted proof of Bucky killing Tony's parents, namely that tape.
No, he didn't lure them there, at least not on purpose. He was forced to reactivate and ask Bucky about the location of the Siberian HYDRA base because the ex-HYDRA guy who was chilling in Cleveland wouldn't tell him. There's a scene in a restaurant where he listens to the telephone recording and hears that Cap, Bucky and co. are on the run so he takes the next flight to Moscow. Cap, Bucky and Tony ending up in the HYDRA base was just a convenient coincidence that played into Zemo's hands. We don't know what he'd have done with the tape otherwise.
It was heavily implied in The Winter Soldier when he found Zola.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Tony didn't force Peter to join. Tony tried to leave and Peter webbed the door shut. At best you could say tony offered a low paying highly dangerous open-ended internship to an over eager teenager with poor job prospects. Par for course I'd say.
EatinOlives
Member
Anyone else think the airport fight was really disappointing? Everyone joking at each other with the trademark MCU quippiness and heroic music playing in the background and Widow going "we so friends tho, right? LOL" was a tonal clusterfuck. Not that I wanted grimdark but it felt like Cap and Tony were the only ones invested in what was happening whole everyone else was going "weee! This is so much fun!" like puppies roughhouse playing in the backyard.
And Antman's inclusion was 100% pointless. Could they really not wait until the next Avengers? Really felt like he was shoved in there for maximum marketing but no other reason.
And Antman's inclusion was 100% pointless. Could they really not wait until the next Avengers? Really felt like he was shoved in there for maximum marketing but no other reason.
Jest Chillin
Member
You say the movie does mental gymnastics... Then cite the AI being able to evualate the fighting style of a man with nearly every fighting style on Earth in just a few seconds and taking him out and you don't see the problem with that?
The non-plot anchored result of that would be that when the AI responds with a new fighting style, Cap would too. So the AI would have to be constanly evaluating and countering as Cap is doing the same and it would have to do so without Tony telling it to specifically do so.
That tactic would work with anyone other than Cap, Batroc, and Taskmaster.
Peter webbed him because he half jokingly threatened to tell Aunt May about Peter's powers.
Tony also probably decided to go after Spidey after seeing how strong he was on the footage, and since the goal was to bring back cap, someone that could restrain him with webbing seemed like a good opportunity.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
How did Zemo know Bucky killed Tony's parents?
call_kotaku
Member
Zemo decrypts the Hydra files and sees a connection between a winter soldier mission and the death of the Starks. He tracks down the Russian colonel for the winter soldier code book, but tortures him about information on the stark mission, which the colonel doesn't give him. Then he would need to find someone else who knows what happened, so he needs to find the winter soldier, but can't since Bucky's off the grid, so Zemo bombs the UN and plants evidence so the whole world would help look for him. Once Bucky is captured Zemo can impersonate the psychiatrist and get close enough to to Bucky to use the code book. He asks Bucky to give a mission report, thereby confirming that Bucky killed the Starks, and then orders Bucky to fight his way out of the UN prison expecting that Bucky will die trying. He travels to Siberia to retrieve the videotape of Bucky killing the Starks and to kill the remaining winter soldiers, Tony/Cap/Bucky arriving at the base wasn't expected but he used the opportunity.
No, it wasn't a coincidence at all.
He ordered his breakfast so that room service girl could discover the dead psychiatrist, making it go public, and allowing Tony to see that Cap was right. After that it was pretty obvious Tony would go and join Cap+Bucky.
Jest Chillin
Member
He bribed him and manipulated him. Had he told Peter why Cap was doing what he was doing, Spidey wouldn't have agreed since Peters logic matches Caps.
The Hydra files that were released. He broke the encryption and found out from there. His goal in this movie was to find the actual mission files and footage to show Tony.
BIGWORM
Member
I was actually wondering that question myself. I don't remember any dialogue pertaining to Cap being brieded/finding out how Stank's parents died. Either they cut that dialogue on the cutting room floor, or Plot no Jutsu. I'm leaning on the latter.
WizardSquid
Neo Member
Happened in Winter Soldier, Zola told him.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Winter Soldier. Zola heavily implies that Bucky was responsible. Widow hands him a classified dossier on The Winter Soldier, and Cap connected the obvious dots.
Speaking of which I'm sad Zola didn't resurface in this.
It was said that he looked in the old SHIELD files, where he presumably found a lead and proceeded to pull at the threads until he found the video.
At this point, I would love a Zemo-lead Thunderbolts movie. As bloodthirsty as he is, I truly believe that Zemo thought he was the good guy in all of this.
edit: Also, totally #teamcap after the movie, especially when the movie shows how governments -- like General Ross -- are reckless and unaccountable too.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
How come Tony didn't know? Think it would be, like, #1 for him to scour through. Zemo learning this just leads to more questions.
Glass Rebel
Member
Sure but Zemo didn't know what the relationship between Tony and Steve was at that moment. There were too many unknown factors and Tony ultimately only found out about the location of the HYDRA base because of Sam. Of course, Zemo's plan didn't depend on this, it's just another thing that ended up working in his favour.
Jest Chillin
Member
Because his parents death was reported as an accident. So there was no drive for him to suspect that Hydra had anything to do with it.
Zemo, on the other hand was looking for something to bring down the Avengers and secret Hydra files is as good a place as any to search for something that could do so. Zemo wouldn't have know what he was going to find, if anything, but he had no better options so why not?
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Cap 4 needs to happen so Red Skull and Zola can return and create some heinous plot, Zemo catches wind and helps the Secret Avengers stop it. But is still all tsundere about it, of course.
The Winter Soldier is probably pretty low on Tony's radar at that point in time, so Zemo was probably the only one who was digging and putting one and two together.
Oh, for some reason, that leads me to think about something that wasn't clear in the movie: did Zemo kill off the other Winter Soldiers or were they dead already? He only said that they died in their sleep.
User 73706
Banned
no no, see, if a black dude interacts with a white woman and it's anything other than a fight it means they want to bang
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Shouldn't it be on Tony's radar to go through these Hydra files? The Avenger's raid a Hydra facility after Winter Soldier so you would think Tony is doing digging. Did he just fail to dig enough or was there even an attempt? Seems out of character for him not to... since... well... he was digging into SHIELD during Avenger's 1.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
The surveillance camera didn't catch all those details. They were just filled in by going back to the flashback.
Zemo executed them. Said he didn't want more people like Cap and Bucky out there.
Jest Chillin
Member
To be fair.. Widows banter almost always comes across as flirty to a lot of people. It's why people were surprised she was interested in Banner and not Cap.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
They died in their sleep because he shot them in the head.
Jest Chillin
Member
They got the info on that Hydra cell from Coulson and SHIELD through Maria Hill on AOS. So Tony wasn't scouring the data at all.
Thanks! I really need to watch this movie a second time... I missed a lot of lines because IMAX is too loud for me
Emerson's Essentia
Banned
I wish the "Anti-Quip" camp would just learn their lesson and stay away from everything Marvel-related from now until the end of time.
Glass Rebel
Member
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Tony would have dug through those files and he should have. Weird how it's never brought up. Heck, he digs through SHIELD day 1 on the carrier because he wants to.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Also just to check since I'm not going to read the whole thread, when they showed the shitty house with "Cleveland" did anyone else go with their friends "sure looks like Cleveland" or a variety of that? LMAO
Especially when they show the crashed cars outside and we were like "yep, definitely cleveland"
Especially when they show the crashed cars outside and we were like "yep, definitely cleveland"
BIGWORM
Member
Got damn, I need to see Winter Soldier again.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Likely from the same encrypted Hydra files that let him track down the former agent. He needed the mission report to prove it.
EatinOlives
Member
It's not "anti-quip", it's just knowing when to stop.
This movie was actually really good about knowing when to do comic relief. Then the airport fight scene happened... Yeaaaah...
I really enjoyed the airport scene, but I can see where you're coming from.
Jest Chillin
Member
To look for what exactly? At that point in time he was trying to be retired and focus on Pepper. And from the way the events of TWS unfolded, Hydra had appeared to be completely done for. Until they recieve confirmed info that a major Hydra cell has survived and holds Loki's scepter, which was instrumental in the Battle of New York, there was no reason for him to get involved.
RellyRell28
Banned
About to watch it again. First movie I watched in theaters twice in a while.
Emerson's Essentia
Banned
Sorry you didn't like it. I had no problem with it because it completely falls in line with Marvel's tone, at large.
*shrug*
call_kotaku
Member
Also, has Tony ever been a good detective in any of the movies? He's a brilliant scientist and engineer but I don't think he actually tried to do any detective work in any of the movies besides IM3. Zemo's (and BW's) specialty being espionage/covert work does make it more plausible that he'd be able to figure it out before Stark did.
I mean, Iron Man isn't Batman, despite what the critics say.
I mean, Iron Man isn't Batman, despite what the critics say.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I assumed that there wasn't a direct connection there. If there was, Tony would have already probably figured it out. There was probably enough to give Zemo a strong suspicion as to what happened, given that Zemo was already a HYDRA guy to begin with. That's why Zemo needed to interrogate that other dude in the beginning - to find out for sure, and to acquire the video evidence.
Jest Chillin
Member
And it wasn't as if they wanted to kill each other. Tony's side just wanted to stop Cap's and Cap's side just wanted to get away to go after Zemo.
Compared to what and who they've actually fought before, it really was just a glorified sparring match. The only exceptions being Wanda, who had had enough of Tony's shit and Black Panther who was out for vengeance.
Okay great, captain will beat ironman anyway all day, in fact he will beat Thor too and Hulk while we are at it. He will also beat fighter jets and tanks with a punch and will even destroy thanos
BronsonLee
Member
Yo Tosyn I think you got a problem with Cap, b
Subpar Spatula
Banned
A major organization that infiltrated a lot of SHIELD was just found out and is still about. Secret files from SHIELD were leaked in an encrypted format on the Internet. Tony Stark literally sits down and goes, "I don't care".
Yeah, not buying it. Dude would be all up in there.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
His tech allows him to do some very nice on-site detective work, as shown in Iron Man 3. But he was so in the dark about Zemo's plot and refused to listen to Cap, so it wasn't made clear to him until there was more information available for Friday to catch it.
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