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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos
- Thread starter Son Of D
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peanutbutterlatte
Member
Anybody crowing about the greatness of Spider-Man 2 in a style of writing that has long worn out its novelty is not for me.
It's a good write-up for an overall point that should be taken as a cause for concern but this is the first time in a while where I can't really say I sympathize as much with FilmCritHulk's opinion or how that really reflects much on here, and I do believe that for someone of their caliber it's overly cynical to assume a lot of choices made in the movie.
There seems to be a lot of subtleties missed in the analysis which is somewhat baffling for someone of (jumps to pointing Tony as a hypocrite despite Peter himself actually choosing to go down that road after the speech about responsibility/him not knowing Wanda was involved for one thing, doesn't realize that Cap's team was only assembled since he can't take on six Winter Soldiers on his own etc.)
That and it's somewhat odd to see them complaining (or at least implying such) about there not being any major deaths in the movie. I would assume they'd understand that death is hardly a necessary thing in order to raise emotional stakes and I don't really think the movie assumes too much of your investment in several confrontations. Consequence is still highly integral to Civil War; or else we wouldn't have had Rhodey crippled in a potentially permanent manner, Vision and Wanda's budding romance separated, Tony in a gutter having lost almost everything, Bucky being back on ice and Cap + co. being fugitives.
Yeah Cap sends Tony Stank an apology mail but I don't see why people think that's absolved everything. In the grand scheme of things it's a pat on the back for what is undoubtedly the absolute emotional low point of this enterprise.
It's a bit funny that BMD has done some interesting writing about Civil War but that it feels like Hulk of all the writers on there is somewhat too one-dimensional in the write up. If nothing else it's a good angle to consider and I do believe the potential trap raised by him is something worth worrying about, but I just don't think it applies to this movie which still manages to tell a fairly self contained story where a lot of character beats and personalities are succinctly told/recapped while being incredibly rewarding for those that have followed it up to this point. If anything I think the X-Men movies are better examples of how they have too much assumed empathy due to how sterile certain characters have become while becoming more important than they should be (Mystique), how there's almost only one lynch pin holding it up (Wolverine) and how just about every character still seems willing to ignore the facts by telling us a character isn't beyond redemption when they clearly are (Magneto)
I don't think it has good writing, but I think Raimi did a brilliant job making it work regardless. Him and Molina really took a generic character and invested him with real life and purpose. Same with Maguire and Dunst - their characters suck, but the acting is really, really good, allowing both of them moments of sheer unlikeability that MCU films don't seem to dwell on.
QuiteWhittle
Member
I would imagine being the head of a country with antimatter weapons had something to do with that.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
There's "moments" of unlikeability, then there's Kirsten Dunst just being whiny and unbearable for 75% of the films.
I still think she did a good job. But man, her best stuff was in the first film.
Like mentioned in the post you quoted, T'Challas situation is more unique. Diplomatic immunity and all.
I thought Civil War did a pretty good job of making both Steve and Tony unlikable at points, hence a lot of heated debate over who was really at fault. Tony especially gets it pretty bad from Natasha after the airport fight. I think some people would have found it more satisfying though if Tony and Steve ended the movie hating each other rather than Steve extending the olive branch.
So are we going to see a Captain America 4 at any point?
They usually wait for video release
They usually wait for video release
If we do, I'd bet it would be with Bucky-Cap or Falcon-Cap, I get the feeling that Steve Rogers Cap is done after Infinity.
Happy to be wrong but it seems that's where we are going.
freeofgreed
Member
I didn't get that impression at all tbh. I think the movie did a great job of showing that BP wasn't team Iron Man and was more anti-Bucky, and that the only reason he sided with Stark was because it was the easiest way to accomplish that goal, I don't think him and Stark even converse in the film IIRC. Also BP himself said in the film that he's not his father, so judging him based on his father's actions is kind of pointless
I hope they use Bucky-Cap over Falcon-Cap just to hear people call him Bucky-Cap.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
freeofgreed
Member
Which was under T'Chaka, not T'Challa
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I just find it hilarious that Wanda is alive here and Quicksilver is dead.
I wonder if the studios agreed to that. Have Scarlet Witch in one and Quicksilver in the other.
Probably not...
definitely not...
After my third viewing, I'm now convinced that the sloppy portrayal of the passage of time is the root of most of the story telling problems in the film. Considering how compressed the story feels in the first half and how quickly events unfold, it's a shame something as basic as conveying time is mostly ignored. If you pay attention, it's clear that the funeral, the signing, and Bucky's capture all occurred over the course of at least 3 days, probably more, but the daytime lighting in all three events feels like they all occur within hours of each other, which would be impossible. They jump from London to Vienna for example on the same day but the daylight doesn't change from morning to afternoon between location changes.
I know it might sound like it wouldn't make a big difference but I think the way it's conveyed is genuinely confusing if you're not paying really close attention. And with so many moving parts, that minor confusion can be very distracting.
It's still a really good movie but I tend to get hung up on structural problems like this.
I know it might sound like it wouldn't make a big difference but I think the way it's conveyed is genuinely confusing if you're not paying really close attention. And with so many moving parts, that minor confusion can be very distracting.
It's still a really good movie but I tend to get hung up on structural problems like this.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
YOOOOOOOOOOO!
THIS MOVIE WAS THE BOMb!
OH SHIT THAT FIGHTING! THAT FIGHTING SON! THE RUSSOS DID SOME KICK ASS SHIT WITH THAT CHOREOGRAPHY. OH SNAP, I DIDN'T THINK THEY WERE GOING TO PUT GIANT MAN IN THAT SHIT AND THEY DID! OOOOOOOH!
Awwh and I liked how they edited Spider-man out in the trailers. That was real slick. Tom Holland did his thang as Spidey and he was in it more than I thought he was going to be.
OH SHIT, AND LET'S TALK ABOUT MY NEGRO BLACK PANTHER! BLACK PANTHER WHOOPED SOME ASS IN THIS BITCH! THEM HANDS HE LAID AND BUCK AND THE CREW.. FABULOUS, STRAIGHT FABULOUS! READY TO SEE HIS MOVIE NOW. LIKE DAMN!
They even did the Scarlet and Vision romance which is weird. She ain't going to have his baby though and GOSH DAMN DID OL GIRL LAY THE HURT ON VISION! I WAS LIKE "DON'T YOU THINK YOU OVERDID THAT SHIT!" I actually liked homegirl in this. She was a whatever throwaway character in Ultron, but she had some shit to say in this one and her acting was decent.
They keep expanding on Falcon too. In Ant-Man they gave him the tech goggles and in this one his wings act like a shield and they integrated his pet Falcon in this, but instead of giving him an actual Falcon, they just gave him a drone that served the same purpose.
The takedowns in the end were hella cool and I can't wait for the next Russos movie, but I hope they won't get burned out after doing two of these back to back and then Infinity War's a two-parter so that's a lot of filming.
GOOD SHIT MARVEL. GOOD SHIT!
THIS MOVIE WAS THE BOMb!
OH SHIT THAT FIGHTING! THAT FIGHTING SON! THE RUSSOS DID SOME KICK ASS SHIT WITH THAT CHOREOGRAPHY. OH SNAP, I DIDN'T THINK THEY WERE GOING TO PUT GIANT MAN IN THAT SHIT AND THEY DID! OOOOOOOH!
Awwh and I liked how they edited Spider-man out in the trailers. That was real slick. Tom Holland did his thang as Spidey and he was in it more than I thought he was going to be.
OH SHIT, AND LET'S TALK ABOUT MY NEGRO BLACK PANTHER! BLACK PANTHER WHOOPED SOME ASS IN THIS BITCH! THEM HANDS HE LAID AND BUCK AND THE CREW.. FABULOUS, STRAIGHT FABULOUS! READY TO SEE HIS MOVIE NOW. LIKE DAMN!
They even did the Scarlet and Vision romance which is weird. She ain't going to have his baby though and GOSH DAMN DID OL GIRL LAY THE HURT ON VISION! I WAS LIKE "DON'T YOU THINK YOU OVERDID THAT SHIT!" I actually liked homegirl in this. She was a whatever throwaway character in Ultron, but she had some shit to say in this one and her acting was decent.
They keep expanding on Falcon too. In Ant-Man they gave him the tech goggles and in this one his wings act like a shield and they integrated his pet Falcon in this, but instead of giving him an actual Falcon, they just gave him a drone that served the same purpose.
The takedowns in the end were hella cool and I can't wait for the next Russos movie, but I hope they won't get burned out after doing two of these back to back and then Infinity War's a two-parter so that's a lot of filming.
GOOD SHIT MARVEL. GOOD SHIT!
Finally saw it today.
Easily top 3 comic movie of all time. I giggled like a 12 year old marvel Fanboy during the airport scene. So many of my comic hero's from my child all coming to life in such an aawesome scene.
They nailed Spidey, Ant Man and Black Panther.just nailed all 3
Easily top 3 comic movie of all time. I giggled like a 12 year old marvel Fanboy during the airport scene. So many of my comic hero's from my child all coming to life in such an aawesome scene.
They nailed Spidey, Ant Man and Black Panther.just nailed all 3
Got a chance to watch it today as well. While I had an enjoyable time, there were a whole host of problems with the film, largely stemming from the inclusion of the Avengers in the film, that hurt it. Especially the first half of the movie, which was a narrative mess. However, unlike Batman v Superman which also had a sloppy first half, the setpieces and action choreography of the second half save the movie.
I also hated what they did to Crossbones and Zemo. I don't know who Daniel Bruhl was playing in the movie, but he wasn't Zemo.
I also hated what they did to Crossbones and Zemo. I don't know who Daniel Bruhl was playing in the movie, but he wasn't Zemo.
Choppasmith
Member
Hey guys, am I going crazy?
When Vision first appears and Wanda says, "We talked about this..."
I could've sworn she used his nickname "Vizh" like the comics (which made my inner fanboy squee with delight). Yet I'm seeing all sorts of memes and captured pics going "Vis" Am I just not remembering comics correctly? Have there been any official captions out yet?
When Vision first appears and Wanda says, "We talked about this..."
I could've sworn she used his nickname "Vizh" like the comics (which made my inner fanboy squee with delight). Yet I'm seeing all sorts of memes and captured pics going "Vis" Am I just not remembering comics correctly? Have there been any official captions out yet?
She said "Vis", but due to her accent it sounded like "Vizssshe".
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
haha honestly I never notice shit like this
Normally it wouldn't be an issue but with a movie like this, it makes the events feel too cramped.
"Veeeze!"
I thought her accent was hot...
Choppasmith
Member
Best comic panel I could find (I'm no Slayven)
It was the nickname I always remembered reading stuff with Vision.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
So how many "Oh shit" moments are there going to be in Infinity War?
Any I'm missing?
- Bucky coming out of cryo to fuck shit up
- Guardians of the Galaxy joining the fray
- Cap getting his shield back, retaking the "Captain America" mantle
- Iron Man and Captain America kissing & making up
- (If the gods are good) Netflix heroes kicking ass
Thanos killing somebody
Any I'm missing?
Thanos kills Cap, Tony wants at him, the UN shackles him, Tony pulls out his proto cannon and blasts his way out to show Thanos what's what.
Cap lifting Thor's hammer
Visions death. Mother fucking gladiator Hulk. Multiple Celestials.
Thanos going to town on the cosmic entities (whom we'll probably get our first glimpses of in Dr. Strange).
Just thinking about all those characters in the hands of the Russos excites me.
The action is going to be amazing.
spindashing
Banned
I personally cannot wait for this one.
So, I was listening to one of my random gaming podcasts rap about this movie today and...I think they might have sold me on Team Stark.
It was really interesting hearing about the movie through their perspective. I mean, they felt strongly enough about this as to say Cap was the surprise antagonist of the movie.
And really, in retrospect I feel like a lot of my reasons for generally falling on Team Cap side of things have to do with each of the hero's track records. Cap has a sterling reputation and always knows what's right. Stark is a perpetual fuck-up who makes all his own super villains. And, generally speaking, I like Steve and I think Tony is privileged douche who really needed the kicking he got at the end of this movie. Seeing cap put that shield through the arc reactor was one of the most emotionally satisfying moments as a die-hard Tony Stark hater.
But the more I think about each of their positions, the more I can't help but feel like Iron Man is being very reasonable and fair throughout much of the movie and that Cap is coming at this from a place of high principals that are not engaging with reality. What Tony is saying is right. They can sign and then retake political ground later instead of just burning all their bridges from the world go. They can become publicly accountable and still be highly effective as a group and, again, if their efficacy is clearly threatened, they can become criminals later rather than just skipping to the part where they're being hunted by every government on earth. Because surely that won't have any negative effects on what they can get done.
The idea of blame being shifted to the UN is ludicrous because it's arguing not just against where to put the blame, but also against where authority resides. If the Avengers are UN sanctioned and the various governments were elected by the people (more or less) then the Avengers are Superheroes of the people. What they had prior to the accords essentially constituted a Might Makes Right philosophy, no? I mean, the MCU was very fortunate that the roughest, toughest guns turned out to be fairly upstanding ladies and gentlemen, but Captain America alone gets to decide what's right and what's wrong because his gang of super people have the powers to back up their claims? No, I'm sorry, but that just seems like way too much responsibility to be vested in any one person. Even if that person is Steve Rogers. There's not enough perspective in any single human being to make that call alone.
Someone else online pointed out to me that Cap's one really good point about how the UN is made up of governments with agendas and agendas change...well, Ok, but if we leave it in the hands of just the Avengers...the avengers are also people with agendas and maybe their agendas change? Like, say, how someone could completely torpedo any and all public good will his heroic institution might have in the world at large to go tilt at windmills and fall into a super villian's master plan? Kinda like that?
And you know what? It would be a lot easier for Hydra to infiltrate and destroy an independent Avengers Initiative than it would for them to gain a controlling interest in enough UN countries to throw off the vote. Like say it was Hydra who was activating Barnes and not Zemo and they used him as a lure to catch Steve out alone and they got into his head. How long do you think it would take before the Avengers realized they'd been had? How much havoc could ensue before Widow smells the rat and the threat is neutralized (because let's be honest, we all know it would be Nat who catches that one)?
Is that better or worse than having to wait for permission and/or beg for forgiveness when the UN is not green lighting one of their missions fast enough?
I don't know, it disgusts me to admit it, but I can't help but think that Stark was right.
TL
R - I still like Steve better as a person, but objectively, I feel like Tony is more correct than Steve is now. I think that might make me Team Stark and I hate myself a little for admitting that.
It was really interesting hearing about the movie through their perspective. I mean, they felt strongly enough about this as to say Cap was the surprise antagonist of the movie.
And really, in retrospect I feel like a lot of my reasons for generally falling on Team Cap side of things have to do with each of the hero's track records. Cap has a sterling reputation and always knows what's right. Stark is a perpetual fuck-up who makes all his own super villains. And, generally speaking, I like Steve and I think Tony is privileged douche who really needed the kicking he got at the end of this movie. Seeing cap put that shield through the arc reactor was one of the most emotionally satisfying moments as a die-hard Tony Stark hater.
But the more I think about each of their positions, the more I can't help but feel like Iron Man is being very reasonable and fair throughout much of the movie and that Cap is coming at this from a place of high principals that are not engaging with reality. What Tony is saying is right. They can sign and then retake political ground later instead of just burning all their bridges from the world go. They can become publicly accountable and still be highly effective as a group and, again, if their efficacy is clearly threatened, they can become criminals later rather than just skipping to the part where they're being hunted by every government on earth. Because surely that won't have any negative effects on what they can get done.
The idea of blame being shifted to the UN is ludicrous because it's arguing not just against where to put the blame, but also against where authority resides. If the Avengers are UN sanctioned and the various governments were elected by the people (more or less) then the Avengers are Superheroes of the people. What they had prior to the accords essentially constituted a Might Makes Right philosophy, no? I mean, the MCU was very fortunate that the roughest, toughest guns turned out to be fairly upstanding ladies and gentlemen, but Captain America alone gets to decide what's right and what's wrong because his gang of super people have the powers to back up their claims? No, I'm sorry, but that just seems like way too much responsibility to be vested in any one person. Even if that person is Steve Rogers. There's not enough perspective in any single human being to make that call alone.
Someone else online pointed out to me that Cap's one really good point about how the UN is made up of governments with agendas and agendas change...well, Ok, but if we leave it in the hands of just the Avengers...the avengers are also people with agendas and maybe their agendas change? Like, say, how someone could completely torpedo any and all public good will his heroic institution might have in the world at large to go tilt at windmills and fall into a super villian's master plan? Kinda like that?
And you know what? It would be a lot easier for Hydra to infiltrate and destroy an independent Avengers Initiative than it would for them to gain a controlling interest in enough UN countries to throw off the vote. Like say it was Hydra who was activating Barnes and not Zemo and they used him as a lure to catch Steve out alone and they got into his head. How long do you think it would take before the Avengers realized they'd been had? How much havoc could ensue before Widow smells the rat and the threat is neutralized (because let's be honest, we all know it would be Nat who catches that one)?
Is that better or worse than having to wait for permission and/or beg for forgiveness when the UN is not green lighting one of their missions fast enough?
I don't know, it disgusts me to admit it, but I can't help but think that Stark was right.
TL
R - I still like Steve better as a person, but objectively, I feel like Tony is more correct than Steve is now. I think that might make me Team Stark and I hate myself a little for admitting that.Jack Scofield
Member
Overall, I enjoyed the movie. If I wanted to be a nitpicking mouthbreather, though, I would point out that Tony survived a freefall way back in Iron Man 1, and that was AFTER being shot by a tank.
War Machine just can't compare!
War Machine just can't compare!
Arc reactor was still fully functioning. Rhodey was free falling in a metal coffin
Saw it a third time and now I've got two issues with it, but still like it overall.
1. The opening up until Tony Stark's MIT address is nauseating. Although there are a few cool moments here and there, the way the action is shot is notably worse than everything else in the film. I'm not convinced shooting it more cohesively would've given an R-rating, so this is a critical mistake.
2. The score is actively bad. Henry Jackman abandons the few individual themes and only brings back his Winter Soldier theme, which is generally out of place with the storytelling. His Cap theme is used too subtly, and more disgustingly, he ignores previous Marvel music. Marvel has never been big on musical continuity, but this is an all time low. There is no need for a new Marvel fanfare, or Ant-Man's theme to replaced with a more generic "Team Cap" theme. Black Panther and Spider-Man's musical motifs stick out initially, but then it's just because the instrumentation is different. The music score weakens the film and makes moments like the final fight or even the airport scene not live up to their full potential.
1. The opening up until Tony Stark's MIT address is nauseating. Although there are a few cool moments here and there, the way the action is shot is notably worse than everything else in the film. I'm not convinced shooting it more cohesively would've given an R-rating, so this is a critical mistake.
2. The score is actively bad. Henry Jackman abandons the few individual themes and only brings back his Winter Soldier theme, which is generally out of place with the storytelling. His Cap theme is used too subtly, and more disgustingly, he ignores previous Marvel music. Marvel has never been big on musical continuity, but this is an all time low. There is no need for a new Marvel fanfare, or Ant-Man's theme to replaced with a more generic "Team Cap" theme. Black Panther and Spider-Man's musical motifs stick out initially, but then it's just because the instrumentation is different. The music score weakens the film and makes moments like the final fight or even the airport scene not live up to their full potential.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Watched the movie for the second time today.
Yeah, the score sucks.
This time I caught Falcon making a reference to fucking Mark Fuhrman. Only cause I'm watching The People vs OJ did I realize who that was. LOL.
On the second viewing, it really crystalizes how good of a villain Zemo is. He doesn't even meet or see most of the Avengers. Everything pretty much works out perfectly for him. I'd be down to see a Thunderbolts flick with him as the leader.
It's still weird that Steve's new love interest is the niece of previous love interest.
Yeah, the score sucks.
This time I caught Falcon making a reference to fucking Mark Fuhrman. Only cause I'm watching The People vs OJ did I realize who that was. LOL.
On the second viewing, it really crystalizes how good of a villain Zemo is. He doesn't even meet or see most of the Avengers. Everything pretty much works out perfectly for him. I'd be down to see a Thunderbolts flick with him as the leader.
It's still weird that Steve's new love interest is the niece of previous love interest.
Discotheque
Banned
i thought only star lord was gonna make the crossover.
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
Don't know what y'all are talking about with the score. Fracture (Bucky reveal) and Clash (final fight) are awesome tracks and really lended to the scenes accompanying them.
That said, I usually don't remember much about a film's score outside of one or two standout tracks unless it's exceptional so lol.
That said, I usually don't remember much about a film's score outside of one or two standout tracks unless it's exceptional so lol.
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