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[Subpar Spatula]

It's a matter of intent. T'Challa didn't hunt Bucky because he believed it was what the law wanted. The law wanted Bucky to be transferred into custody and then extradited to Wakkanda. T'Challa wanted him dead.

Google defines "Vigilante" as

Whereas Dictionary.com has both



Bernthall's Punisher fits both definitions at different times. Punisher's motivations determine which definition of vigilante he fits. When Punisher kills people like the guy peddling pedophilia, he's not doing it because he has an axe to grind. He's doing it because he thinks the law has failed and he's dishing out what is deserved, When he goes after the Irish though, he's avenging the death of his family. He's appeasing his own rage. These are two similar but distinct definitions of "vigilante." T'Challa happens to just be the 2nd. The Avengers though, they don't go out on personal missions, or at least they're not supposed to. Tony took a step into the other Punisher territory where he wanted to kill someone out of rage. His intentions have always been good up to now, even if his results often blow up in his face. He went straight for murder this time, as did T'Challa.

I mean, it's all supposed to be a theme of centered on actions taken out of anger. Zemo did what he did because he was pissed at the loss of his family. He hated the Avengers for what happened and blames them. T'Challa was enraged enough to kill on sight for the whole movie. Tony loses his shit and stops being a hero. All those actions were driven by rage. T'Challa just happened to be the one who broke the cycle that demanded murder in response to murder.

Your understanding of the word is wrong. Vigilantism is taking the law into your own hands. This is made very clear when Black Panther tells Zemo that the living still have need for him because he's bringing him to justice now and instead of killing. You don't even need that bit at the end to make him a vigilante because instead of going to the authorities and letting them handle it, he got in costume, and chased down the man who "killed" his father. This is vigilantism. Intent has nothing to do with it except to justify the vigilante's actions.

 

[Gozer the Gozerian]

I think the important question is what would Happy do?

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

Is there a thread or discussion anywhere on the direct comparison between Batman's motives in BvS and Iron Man's motives in Civil War?

It just seems crazy to me how no one was jumping all over Iron Man when he knew Bucky was under mind control, yet people freaked the hell out over Batman fighting Superman. Seems hypocritical, to say the least.

If there is, I don't know why you're in this thread.

This is the Civil War Spoiler thread.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

I disagree a lot. I have never really felt like Iron Man's motives were empathetic, because like you said, it was mindless.

The dude killed his mother. If that doesn't blind you with rage, I'm not sure what would. Rational went completely out the window and it was totally earned.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

The dude killed his mother. If that doesn't blind you with rage, I'm not sure what would. Rational went completely out the window and it was totally earned.

How was it earned?

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

How was it earned?

Because they've heavily hinted at the dark secret of Bucky taking out the Starks since Cap2..The Zola montage and Widows warning.

If someone murdered your family, co-opted members of your team, hid it from you and was now standing right next to you as you watched them die on film, you wouldn't flip the fuck out?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Because they've heavily hinted at the dark secret of Bucky taking out the Starks since Cap2..The Zola montage and Widows warning.

If someone murdered your family, co-opted members of your team, hid it from you and was now standing right next to you as you watched them die on film, you wouldn't flip the fuck out?

Can't say what I'd do but Tony is more intelligent and collected than most people. To me, it'd be a better character moment for him not to lash out in rage. Violence seems to be the only way the MCU can internalize hardship or pain and it's really starting to show and be grating. Tony snapping and trying to murder them isn't necessarily good story telling.

 

[Callibretto]

How was it earned?

For me , it all relied on RDJ's acting. I know what RDJ doing is wrong, but his acting really make you feel how broken and vulnerable Stark has become, the whole fight I was on the edge of my seat thinking Stark is about to do some thing he'll regret later.

I think that scene could really fall terribly flat under lesser actor. Marvel really got their money's worth with RDJ.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Can't say what I'd do but Tony is more intelligent and collected than most people. To me, it'd be a better character moment for him not to lash out in rage. Violence seems to be the only way the MCU can internalize hardship or pain and it's really starting to show and be grating. Tony snapping and trying to murder them isn't necessarily good story telling.

Everyone has their breaking point. There was a reason the movie opened with Stark in the holodeck with his parents right before they died. He says he spent 600 million (or was that billion) just to find some closure and it still wasn't effective. Killing the turd that murdered his parents seems like something he would definitely do.

You say he's collected, but based on the movies, his emotional fragility is second only to Banner.

Also, he was already cracked a bit from the loss of Peppa, the realization of the toll his "heroic" actions have taken, the fallout with his former teammates, the fight with said teammates, the fall and uncertain future of Rhodey, and his envy of Cap over his fathers affections.

 

[Abounder]

Can't say what I'd do but Tony is more intelligent and collected than most people. To me, it'd be a better character moment for him not to lash out in rage. Violence seems to be the only way the MCU can internalize hardship or pain and it's really starting to show and be grating. Tony snapping and trying to murder them isn't necessarily good story telling.

I suppose it's to make Black Panther look wiser and smarter, not a fan of the double dead dads storyline though. Tony was more like the Hulk lol

 

[Forkball]

I liked it, but it was no Winter Soldier.

+Everyone had such good chemistry together, I can really watch them do anything. Great casting all throughout the MCU. The MCU continues to be popular after all these years because the actors have done such a good job making us care about the characters.
+The airport scene really lived up to the concept. Everyone in the theatre reacted huge to Giant Man. Though I'm not sure why he moved in slow motion.
+Spidey was totally shoe-horned in, but it made me instantly interested in his solo film.
+The action scenes were all well-shot and intense, though I think the set pieces in Winter Soldier were more memorable and distinct. Black Widow stood out for me. I honestly never really cared if she got a solo film, but they did a good job showing her kick ass and it only took five movies.

-Cap did a poor job explaining his position. He could have referenced the whole Hydra shenanigans and how he's grown distrustful of the people giving him orders, but it really boiled down to, "But Bucky!"
-I didn't buy Zemo as a villain. His family got killed? Didn't he work for a DEATH SQUAD? I'm not sure what I should be feeling about this guy.
-It was a bit too grimdark at times. I don't really want to see Captain America impale Iron Man with his shield. Winter Soldier had its share of brutal scenes, but in an exciting way.
-Iron Man was way too mopey. He doesn't need to be Batman.

Here's junk I didn't understand.

1. Zemo had some mask tech to trick everyone? Like from Winter Soldier?
2. How does Zemo even know about Hydra and Winter Soldier? Or that Bucky killed Stark's parents?
3. Why does Black Panther have a super suit out of nowhere? They said he was a solider, but in what way? Is he in the Wakandan army or something?
4. Why does Ant-Man bother to join up? He seems to ask no questions and just goes with it because he wants to meet Captain America.

 

[guek]

Your understanding of the word is wrong.

No, it's really not. Dictionary definitions back what I'm saying, and you're not reading my post thoroughly. I cover your defining of the word.

In either case though, it really doesn't matter whatsoever to the plot of the movie.

 

[exYle]

Here's junk I didn't understand.

1. Zemo had some mask tech to trick everyone? Like from Winter Soldier?
2. How does Zemo even know about Hydra and Winter Soldier? Or that Bucky killed Stark's parents?
3. Why does Black Panther have a super suit out of nowhere? They said he was a solider, but in what way? Is he in the Wakandan army or something?
4. Why does Ant-Man bother to join up? He seems to ask no questions and just goes with it because he wants to meet Captain America.

1. Presumably
2. He either flat-out discovered or found hints of it from Black Widow's leak of the Hydra files from WS. He mentioned this early on. He spent the rest of the movie trying to find hard evidence.
3. "The Black Panther has guarded Wakanda for generations." A ceremonial warrior position, I would say. Wakanda is also the only source of vibranium in the world, which is what his suit is made of.
4. He joins up with Cap because Falcon reaches out to him for help dealing with the "psycho assassins", AKA the five other Winter Soldiers. Remember, Team Cap did NOT form specifically to fight Team Iron Man.

 

[Zero-ELEC]

Here's junk I didn't understand.

1. Zemo had some mask tech to trick everyone? Like from Winter Soldier?
2. How does Zemo even know about Hydra and Winter Soldier? Or that Bucky killed Stark's parents?
3. Why does Black Panther have a super suit out of nowhere? They said he was a solider, but in what way? Is he in the Wakandan army or something?
4. Why does Ant-Man bother to join up? He seems to ask no questions and just goes with it because he wants to meet Captain America.

1. No, he used low tech face prosthesis, as stated in the film.
2. As stated in the film, he decrypted files from the very public leak of all S.H.I.E.L.D/HYDRA files.
3. He's the Black Panther, the warrior protector of his country of Wakanda. He's the prince (now king) of Wakanda. The super suit is only part of his powers, as (in the comics, at least) he has enhanced strength, senses, agility, etc. due to a magical heart shaped herb that all Black Panthers must take.
4. He's just glad to be part of the team.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

That's a good point on Antmen. Pym and by extension, Scott both have a distrust of Stark and the Avengers and fear the Pym particle falling into their hands. So why would he just join their crew and fall asleep leaving his costume and tech completely vulnerable?

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

I agree with your point regarding batman fear of superman but still thought that BvS was poorly written.
But to be fair, I also think Civil War is poorly written (even if I enjoyed it a lot) and I'm genuinely surprised to see how much people are willing to justify anything (Black panther is not a vigilante, seriously ?)
- Why Iron Man, with a 36 hours deadline, spends X hours to fly to New York, flirt with Aunt May and recruit a teenager instead of trying to find a solution with his friends, or investigate ?
- With so much quick witted heroes in the room, why cant someone says "What were we supposed to do in New York ?"
- How quick someone like the secretary of states can go from "I really appreciate what you've done" to "you should all go in special prisons and you're lucky you arent in one stark" ?

I like lots of things about the movie, but the writing is mediocre at best.

Good points. It's comical how people give so many passes to Marvel lol.

If there is, I don't know why you're in this thread.

This is the Civil War Spoiler thread.

That's exactly why I'm in here, how doesn't that make sense? If I'm looking for something involving Civil War, you go to the Civil War thread where people are openly discussing spoilers.

It's no wonder MoS/BvS didn't make sense to you.

 

[IndoAssassin]

Can't say what I'd do but Tony is more intelligent and collected than most people. To me, it'd be a better character moment for him not to lash out in rage. Violence seems to be the only way the MCU can internalize hardship or pain and it's really starting to show and be grating. Tony snapping and trying to murder them isn't necessarily good story telling.

Tony from all his movies is not a rational person. He has always been selfish and acts on what is best for Tony. IM2 had a few scenes where you see how guilty he feels for his parent's death. They revisit it at the beginning of CW.

Expecting anything other than how he reacted at the end of CW, would have been completely out of character.

In IM he feels guilty for making weapons for war causing many deaths. So he becomes IM.

In IM2 the guilt if his parent's deaths prevent him from fixing his heart.

In IM3 he feels guilty for his bodyguard almost getting killed. So he lashes out and tells the attackers his address.

In AoU he builds Ultron because he feels guilty for not doing enough to prevent the death of his friends from his vision.

So why would you expect anything different in CW?

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Wakanda was at the conference to support the Sokovia Accords, but... Black Panther ended up being the first character to go vigilante in the movie. (with no repercussions, not even a scolding)

BP, as of his father's death, was the head of state of an isolationist country with a powerful military. What repercussions did you expect?

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

That's exactly why I'm in here, how doesn't that make sense? If I'm looking for something involving Civil War, you go to the Civil War thread where people are openly discussing spoilers.

You're not talking about purely Civil War. You're trying to draw a full discussion concerning a comparison between the two films where this thread isn't really the place to do it, lmao.

Start your own thread or post in one of the non-official threads .

It's no wonder MoS/BvS didn't make sense to you.

They both made sense to me. They were just hilariously poorly executed. I don't know if you can read, bud, but I've expressed this very sentiment so many times, it's pretty amusing how dismissive you are when you find a point you can't refute.

It's straight to the 'MCU fanboys giving passes to Marvel!' excuse like you poor persecuted fanboys always resort to, lol.

 

[Slayven]

BP, as of his father's death, was the head of state of an isolationist country with a powerful military. What repercussions did you expect?

I am pretty sure BP made his thoughts on the subject known at the end of the movie

 

[Tom_Cody]

I posted the transcript above your post.

That's what he told himself but once Tony found out, he realized he only did it to protect himself.

This is so awesome.

 

[Magilla]

So Tony Stark is a Thanos sleeper agent right? First he creates Ultron in an effort to enslave the world and then he either tries to kill or imprison most of the Avengers.

hecantkeepgettingawaywithit.gif

 

[Slayven]

]So Tony Stark is a Thanos sleeper agent right[/B]? First he creates Ultron in an effort to enslave the world and then he either tries to kill or imprison most of the Avengers.

hecantkeepgettingawaywithit.gif

MCU The Crossing?

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

You're not talking about purely Civil War. You're trying to draw a full discussion concerning a comparison between the two films where this thread isn't really the place to do it, lmao.

Start your own thread or post in one of the non-official threads.

I wasn't.. I was asking if there was discussion somewhere so I could read up on it.

They both made sense to me. They were just hilariously poorly executed. I don't know if you can read, bud, but I've expressed this very sentiment so many times, it's pretty amusing how dismissive you are when you find a point you can't refute.

A point I can't refute? What are you talking about? lol I'm done with this nonsense, if you actually have something of worth to say, maybe we'll continue this convo. Otherwise, you clearly dodge things that don't fit your argument/agenda, like in that BvS thread.

 

[Fhtagn]

More directly understandable than a broken Batman after fighting crime for most of his life and watching his friends, people he worked with, and many others die around him in that MoS battle with Zod? To me, it makes perfect sense that he's someone who wants to beat the shit out of the people involved with that destruction. Also considering he's goddamn Batman and has this vision of Superman turning evil. With all the pain Batman suffered through, I can see how he'd want to get a possible Superman-fucks-more-shit-up situation under control.

I just dislike how people assert this narrative that BvS was poorly written when that's not true at all. People make it seem like it's a fact that nothing in it makes sense, when in actuality most of it can and has been explained by others as to how the plot does make sense lol.

I get what you're saying but the difference for a lot of folks is Tony, already in a pretty bad place due to guilt over Ultron, ptsd from going into space and his breakup with Pepper, flips out in an emotional moment after seeing video of his parents being murdered by the guy who's in the room with him right at that moment.

Whereas Batman goes all "a one percent chance that he is our enemy we have to take it as an absolute certainty" almost directly quoting Dick Cheney's position on Iraq's WMDs... and methodically plans to take him out.

One is an emotional reaction in the heat of the moment, the other is a long term premeditated action. They both might work for you, but they are different enough that it's easy to see how one can work might work on an emotional level without requiring both to work.

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

I wasn't.. I was asking if there was discussion somewhere so I could read up on it.

Oh, in that case, I have no idea. Pretty oddly specific thing to request, but if you dig hard enough, you can probably find it.

A point I can't refute? What are you talking about? lol I'm done with this nonsense, if you actually have something of worth to say, maybe we'll continue this convo. Otherwise, you clearly dodged all those links in that BvS thread.

It's how you always proceed in these conversations, lmao. You post some nitpicky or incorrect criticism about Civil War, have six/seven posts from others explaining why you're incorrect, and you move on to the next forced critique. Throw in some angry rants about how Civil War fans are 'biased' against BvS and how BvS is oh so wrongly judged and we have the essence of your posting style in these threads.

Like with Spatula, I've learned not to engage in actual discussion with your lot. It only makes all of us dumber.

 

[Quick]

I posted the transcript above your post.

That's what he told himself but once Tony found out, he realized he only did it to protect himself.

 

[pigeon]

Can't say what I'd do but Tony is more intelligent and collected than most people. To me, it'd be a better character moment for him not to lash out in rage. Violence seems to be the only way the MCU can internalize hardship or pain and it's really starting to show and be grating. Tony snapping and trying to murder them isn't necessarily good story telling.

Tony is more intelligent than most people.

Tony is explicitly NOT more collected than most people. Tony being emotional, careless and foolhardy isn't just a running plot theme, it's THE ENTIRE PLOT of one of the Avengers movies.

 

[BlackNMild2k1]

Wakanda was at the conference to support the Sokovia Accords, but... Black Panther ended up being the first character to go vigilante in the movie. (with no repercussions, not even a scolding)

BP, as of his father's death, was the head of state of an isolationist country with a powerful military. What repercussions did you expect?

Not to mention that they were Wakandan Diplomats in the US and therefore practically immune to repercussion... not even a scolding.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

 

[ShinoguTakeruKoeru]

Whoa. Is this english subtitles on the Japanese super sentai Spider-Man? Where'd you get this?

 

[More_Badass]

I agree with your point regarding batman fear of superman but still thought that BvS was poorly written.
But to be fair, I also think Civil War is poorly written (even if I enjoyed it a lot) and I'm genuinely surprised to see how much people are willing to justify anything (Black panther is not a vigilante, seriously ?)
- Why Iron Man, with a 36 hours deadline, spends X hours to fly to New York, flirt with Aunt May and recruit a teenager instead of trying to find a solution with his friends, or investigate ?
- With so much quick witted heroes in the room, why cant someone says "What were we supposed to do in New York ?"
- How quick someone like the secretary of states can go from "I really appreciate what you've done" to "you should all go in special prisons and you're lucky you arent in one stark" ?

I like lots of things about the movie, but the writing is mediocre at best.

That last one is easy. Ross never appreciated what they did. Remember this is the guy that used an unstable super soldier serum on his soldier henchman so they could take down the Hulk.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Can't say what I'd do but Tony is more intelligent and collected than most people. To me, it'd be a better character moment for him not to lash out in rage. Violence seems to be the only way the MCU can internalize hardship or pain and it's really starting to show and be grating. Tony snapping and trying to murder them isn't necessarily good story telling.

What makes you think intelligent people can't be overcome with emotion??? Intelligence has nothing to do with that

 

[NandoGip]

Anyone watch the Chelsea weekly captain America episode on Netflix? Idk if it was more cringe than funny, but definitely interesting.

 

[TAJ]

What makes you think intelligent people can't be overcome with emotion??? Intelligence has nothing to do with that

BP was overcome by emotion. Tony is mentally ill, at best.

 

[duckroll]

BP was overcome by emotion. Tony is mentally ill, at best.

And the movie kinda opens with him showing a bunch of students that he spends a lot of his time and money developing tools to try and understand and explain the roots of his mental illness. He acknowledges that he's fucked up!

 

[Cipherr]

-It was a bit too grimdark at times. I don't really want to see Captain America impale Iron Man with his shield. Winter Soldier had its share of brutal scenes, but in an exciting way.

Yeah this did get a little rough and dark towards the end there with the conflict between the 3. I loved it though. RDJ continues to knock it out of the park. The worst part about him being in that CG suit 90% of the time is not being able to see how much effort he is putting into these movies.

I wasn't.. I was asking if there was discussion somewhere so I could read up on it.

Honestly? No. No one is talking about BvS anymore these days breh unless its DC focused forums/threads, or forced into conversation as seen many times in these threads. The public is done with that movie.

So Tony Stark is a Thanos sleeper agent right? First he creates Ultron in an effort to enslave the world and then he either tries to kill or imprison most of the Avengers.

hecantkeepgettingawaywithit.gif

His character is such a flawed jackass man. Seriously. He keeps screwing up, clearly feels guilty and takes it out on other people in this movie. #Teamcap. Neither side is perfect but to hell with Tony Starks narcissistic ass.

 

[TAJ]

And the movie kinda opens with him showing a bunch of students that he spends a lot of his time and money developing tools to try and understand and explain the roots of his mental illness. He acknowledges that he's fucked up!

Sure, but they've painted him into a corner that I don't think they can credibly write him out of in any kind of positive way.
And Civil War ends with the characters more divided (from Tony) than ever. They're going to have to subtitle the next one War.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

I think this has been posted like five times in this thread, haha.

 

[TAJ]

I think this has been posted like five times in this thread, haha.

Missing two lines after the control words.

Me:ready to comply
Her: come over

 

[Bold One]

BP was overcome by emotion. Tony is mentally ill, at best.

 

[jdstorm]

Your understanding of the word is wrong. Vigilantism is taking the law into your own hands. This is made very clear when Black Panther tells Zemo that the living still have need for him because he's bringing him to justice now and instead of killing. You don't even need that bit at the end to make him a vigilante because instead of going to the authorities and letting them handle it, he got in costume, and chased down the man who "killed" his father. This is vigilantism. Intent has nothing to do with it except to justify the vigilante's actions.

When you are the king of a sovereign nation your ability to be bound by laws is different to the Everyman. Who's laws is T'Challa bound by? Wakandan Law. Something he can probably rewrite to suit his own purposes. American/European Law? T'Challa is afforded diplomatic immunity and can basically do whatever he wants, with the only legal recourse being Deportation. International Law? Dressing in body armour, Assault, and Jaywalking is hardly a crime that gets you bought before The Hague.

So legally T'Challa is hardly taking the conventional definition of a vigilante

 

[pigeon]

When you are the king of a sovereign nation your ability to be bound by laws is different to the Everyman. Who's laws is T'Challa bound by? Wakandan Law. Something he can probably rewrite to suit his own purposes. American/European Law? T'Challa is afforded diplomatic immunity and can basically do whatever he wants, with the only legal recourse being Deportation. International Law? Dressing in body armour, Assault, and Jaywalking is hardly a crime that gets you bought before The Hague.

So legally T'Challa is hardly taking the conventional definition of a vigilante

By this argument Black Panther is actually an invading army, which is actually a pretty big war crime all by itself. You don't get diplomatic immunity if you're an armed and uniformed soldier engaging in military action against another country's citizen.

 

[Dennis]

1. Spiderman was fantastic
2. Aunt May is hot
3. Zemo was a great villain with understandable motivation even though he is clearly a cold-hearted murderer
4. Civil War was great but not quite as fantastic as Winter Soldier
5. Civil War was Avengers 3 and much, much better than Age of Ultron
6. Aunt May is hot

 

[Magilla]

His character is such a flawed jackass man. Seriously. He keeps screwing up, clearly feels guilty and takes it out on other people in this movie. #Teamcap. Neither side is perfect but to hell with Tony Starks narcissistic ass.

.

 

[LosDaddie]

Saw this for the second time last night.

Still awesome. The chemistry between RDJ/Holland/Tormei is something to behold. Already the best Spidey will get even better in his MCU solo debut.

Black Panther is just so perfect in CW. His moves. His attitude. His suit. Just give Marvel back all their IPs. They know what to do.

With the exception of Deadpool, I can't think of a single property Marvel wouldn't do better. Even then, I'm sure Marvel would do him justice.

EDIT: Even Ant Man. ANT MAN. He's just perfect in CW. Excellent casting there

 

[SpaceWolf]

Still annoyed that Tony Stark ended up being the creator of the iconic Spiderman outfit.

Still so very annoyed.

 

[Tosyn_88]

Tony from all his movies is not a rational person. He has always been selfish and acts on what is best for Tony. IM2 had a few scenes where you see how guilty he feels for his parent's death. They revisit it at the beginning of CW.

Expecting anything other than how he reacted at the end of CW, would have been completely out of character.

In IM he feels guilty for making weapons for war causing many deaths. So he becomes IM.

In IM2 the guilt if his parent's deaths prevent him from fixing his heart.

In IM3 he feels guilty for his bodyguard almost getting killed. So he lashes out and tells the attackers his address.

In AoU he builds Ultron because he feels guilty for not doing enough to prevent the death of his friends from his vision.

So why would you expect anything different in CW?

Funny how you list acts others wouldn't consider selfish and you manage to see them as selfish. Talk about projecting unto what isn't there. Don't get me wrong, he is selfish but come up with better examples than those

 

[Loke13]

Still annoyed that Tony Stark ended up being the creator of the iconic Spiderman outfit.

Still so very annoyed.

This will never not be a hilarious nitpick