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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos

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As for the convenience of Zemo's plan, I thought the only convenient part was that Bucky, Cap, and Iron Man showed up together. I thought Zemo was obviously going to show the video at some point, they were just early.

BrokenFiction said:
Question I can't figure out - where did the found footage of Bucky killing the Stark's come from? Was it ever mentioned? It makes it seem as if there was a random camera on a dark forest lane.
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I thought Stark saying "I know that road" implies it was on the Stark estate.
 
Freewheelin' said:
Imagine a scene of Stark and May showing full penetration

Civil War 2
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NiKSMOm.gif
 
Creamium said:
Best line in the movie. Or tied with BP's 'I don't care'
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Poo Poo'd all over Clint with that one.
ViewtifulJC said:
I kept watching this movie waiting for teamcap to be right

It never happened
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Yup. The only point where TeamCap was right was when Cap himself finally kissed Sharon. It was Ls everywhere else. Specially that fuckery in Siberia. Fuck outta here, Cap.

I want that Stank Industries shirt with "Tony Stark Was Right" on the back.
 
thecouncil said:
When Captain America grabs that helicopter and starts pulling it back in, I wasn't sure why the audience wasn't cheering. The moment is totally set up for it and it is great.

Look at those arms!
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Laughed/cheered so hard at this scene with the audience . Yeah it was cheesy and awesome, but the flexing was outta control. One woman was just like "WOOOOO".

More I think about this movie the more I like it. And it's not like it wasn't great the first time.

Also, the accords portion was more balanced than I thought, but Wanda house arrest plus putting Avengers in the Raft was too much. Also, to that one post's point - the authorities were completely fucking wrong again, so the safest hands actually are still their own. Tony, his ego and his need to control everything himself are at the center of every problem in movie's he is in, no? Maybe only he needs to sign the accords.

That being said, "you kill my parents, I kill you" is a fair but fair in comics to me so not really mad at Tony there. To quote Chris Rock: I don't approve, but I understand. T'Challa is too zen in that regard , supernatural monarch epiphany or not.
 
I loved Spidey in this but the more I think about his involvement the more it feels like a transparent inclusion of Spider-Man because, well, he's Spider-Man. Is some teenager in Queens that really the first person Stark would want to recruit? What's Peter's incentive to introduce himself to the superhero community by fighting half of the Avengers and getting on Captain America's shit list?
 
Afrodium said:
I loved Spidey in this but the more I think about his involvement the more it feels like a transparent inclusion of Spider-Man because, well, he's Spider-Man. Is some teenager in Queens that really the first person Stark would want to recruit? What's Peter's incentive to introduce himself to the superhero community by fighting half of the Avengers and getting on Captain America's shit list?
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His incentive is he ain't shit.

Also, money.
 
Sibersk Esto said:
As for the convenience of Zemo's plan, I thought the only convenient part was that Bucky, Cap, and Iron Man showed up together. I thought Zemo was obviously going to show the video at some point, they were just early.
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How about Bucky actually being located somewhere close enough to the Accords signing so that he could feasibly be framed with having done it?

Sibersk Esto said:
I thought Stark saying "I know that road" implies it was on the Stark estate.
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I just took it as Tony recognizing the road because he'll have probably visited it, or saw it in media coverage, following his parents' death.

Man would it be suspicious to have them crash their car if it's a road they travel frequently (on their estate) in normal weather conditions.
 
Afrodium said:
I loved Spidey in this but the more I think about his involvement the more it feels like a transparent inclusion of Spider-Man because, well, he's Spider-Man. Is some teenager in Queens that really the first person Stark would want to recruit? What's Peter's incentive to introduce himself to the superhero community by fighting half of the Avengers and getting on Captain America's shit list?
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Tony wants someone who can detain the others without too much of a conflict. There is a line where Peter asks Tony what the plan is and he says something like "stay back and web them up like we discussed". There's also another later line where Nat says to Tony that this isn't going to plan and Tony says "my plan was to go easy on them, figure I should shake it up?"
 
Reflecting on Vision's theory that enhanced people may have led to conflict, I bolded the films where the villains were created/motivated by the heroes.

1. Iron Man - Stane takes Stark's idea and arc reactor to create own suit
2. The Incredible Hulk - Blonsky uses Hulk blood to become Abomination
3. Iron Man 2 - Vanko wants revenge on Stark for putting him in prison
4. Thor - Loki has dad issues
5. Captain America: The First Avenger - Hydra wants to conquer the world
6. The Avengers - Loki has ego issues
7. Iron Man 3 - Stark motivates Killian to become villain
8. Thor: Dark World - Malekith wants to plunge the universe into darkness
9. Captain America: The Winter Soldier - Hydra wants to kill lots of people
10. Guardians of the Galaxy - Ronan hates Xandarians
11. Avengers: Age of Ultron - Stark creates Ultron. Ultron hates humans.
12. Ant-Man - Pym motivates Cross to create the Yellowjacket
13. Captain America: Civil War - Zemo wants revenge for the Avengers killing family
 
Angelus Errare said:
I really don't see how we can say that was Tony's fault for not being there. Might as well blame Hulk and Thor for not being there or Vision.
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If we can blame SW for not enough training, then we can blame Tony for basically taking off after Avengers 2 and leaving others to handle it while he did fuck-all.

My point more is blaming either of them for the actions of a mad bomber is absurd though. Which then makes it equally absurd to blame the group for the NY invasion and the city being destroyed. To me, the only thing Ross wanted was the power to use the Avengers as he saw fit, and that was his only goal in this movie. I'm sure we'll see the pay-off to this in a future movie.
 
FireAndBlood said:
Reflecting on Vision's theory that enhanced people may have led to conflict, I bolded the films where the villains were created/motivated by the heroes.

1. Iron Man - Stane takes Stark's idea and arc reactor to create own suit
2. The Incredible Hulk - Blonsky uses Hulk blood to become Abomination
3. Iron Man 2 - Vanko wants revenge on Stark for putting him in prison
4. Thor - Loki has dad issues
5. Captain America: The First Avenger - Hydra wants to conquer the world
6. The Avengers - Loki has ego issues
7. Iron Man 3 - Stark motivates Killian to become villain
8. Thor: Dark World - Malekith wants to plunge the universe into darkness
9. Captain America: The Winter Soldier - Hydra wants to kill lots of people
10. Guardians of the Galaxy - Ronan hates Xandarians
11. Avengers: Age of Ultron - Stark creates Ultron. Ultron hates humans.
12. Ant-Man - Pym motivates Cross to create the Yellowjacket
13. Captain America: Civil War - Zemo wants revenge for the Avengers killing family
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The Avengers was Thor's fault for caring about people on Earth.
 
wildfire said:
I disagree everyone had plausible motivations. I'm still befuddled over where Sam is coming from telling Rogers Tony won't listen. Falcon usually has good intuition (as proven with the way he regards Bucky and trusts Cap) but I never saw any interaction between him and Stark that would earn that level distrust.

Tony's biggest mistake was allowing Wanda to being imprisoned but Sam's mistake set Rogers and the team on a course that would make the division irreversible. Stark proved Sam wrong immediately upon given the evidence Rogers agreed to not present.

So what was his justification?
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Not sure what exactly you're getting hung up on. Sam wasn't the primary decision maker, Cap was. Lots of the secondary characters chimed in but the two spokesmen were Cap and Tony.
 
Watching this a second time, it's mostly even better. There's a lot of subtle texture in the performances and tiny details that just fit.

But, the central problem i see people having with the film came into focus for me this time: they do a terrible job of ever properly articulating Cap's perspective and rely on the audience having seen Winter Solider to understand why Cap doesn't trust the government any more.

They also don't have him explicitly drive home the "they went after Bucky with orders to kill on sight based on just a tiny bit of easily faked evidence... which was in fact faked!"

That's the only thing that jarred me on second viewing after reading all the critical stuff spilled here.

Also, it's surprising how many reviews I saw mistake Lagos, Nigeria (opening) and/or Vienna, Austria (UN bombing) for Wakanda. We don't see Wakanda until the mid-credits scene.

Edit: I still thoroughly loved it, my point here is that on this viewing I could see where the "team cap is always wrong" camp is coming from.
 
Fhtagn said:
Watching this a second time, it's mostly even better. There's a lot of subtle texture in the performances and tiny details that just fit.

But, the central problem i see people having with the film came into focus for me this time: they do a terrible job of ever properly articulating Cap's perspective and rely on the audience having seen Winter Solider to understand why Cap doesn't trust the government any more.

They also don't have him explicitly drive home the "they went after Bucky with orders to kill on sight based on just a tiny bit of easily faked evidence... which was in fact faked!"

That's the only thing that jarred me on second viewing after reading all the critical stuff spilled here.

Also, it's surprising how many reviews I saw mistake Lagos, Nigeria (opening) and/or Vienna, Austria (UN bombing) for Wakanda. We don't see Wakanda until the mid-credits scene.
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it's a sequel to first avenger and winter soldier though..

also sharon tells cap that they have orders to shoot on sight, cap tells bucky the people that are coming for him aren't going to take him alive, and bucky also directly addresses vienna saying "I don't do that anymore"

if they were to have beaten that home any harder it would have felt weird and forced most likely

I've only seen it once fwiw
 
phanphare said:
it's a sequel to first avenger and winter soldier though..

also sharon tells cap that they have orders to shoot on sight, cap tells bucky the people that are coming for him aren't going to take him alive, and bucky also directly addresses vienna saying "I don't do that anymore"

if they were to have beaten that home any harder it would have felt weird and forced most likely

I've only seen it once fwiw
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Yeah, I caught those lines the first time as well; it's the scenes where Tony and Steve are discussing the accords where Steve comes off as "I just gotta be me" instead of mounting a better defense, which is why you'll see other folks in this thread arguing so intensely that Cap was wrong.

Frankly though it's dangerously close to undermining the film if they overthink those scenes, because how realistic is it that the team would be surprised by a many hundred page document with just three days to sign. How long do international trade agreements take to come together? This is one aspect of the film that I have to put in the "don't think too hard about it" pile. Which thankfully isn't too large a pile for this film.
 
Fhtagn said:
Yeah, I caught those lines the first time as well; it's the scenes where Tony and Steve are discussing the accords where Steve comes off as "I just gotta be me" instead of mounting a better defense, which is why you'll see other folks in this thread arguing so intensely that Cap was wrong.

Frankly though it's dangerously close to undermining the film if they overthink those scenes, because how realistic is it that the team would be surprised by a many hundred page document with just three days to sign. How long do international trade agreements take to come together? This is one aspect of the film that I have to put in the "don't think too hard about it" pile. Which thankfully isn't too large a pile for this film.
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Ross as Secretary of State is the funniest thing in the film. How'd you go from not a politician to that role after a heart attack epiphany? Fucking Betty would've been hit up for every interview known to mankind, Banner would've lost his shit.

I mean I appreciate the callback to TIH, but it's so stupid.
 
Toa TAK said:
Sooooo why did they try to pin the Helicarrier climax in TWS on The Avengers again?
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I think it's more the fact that X shit happened while an/the Avenger(s) was/were doing work.

It really might not have been the best argument considering the context of The Winter Soldier overall. One can argue that the government should have accountability for letting themselves get compromised by Hydra through SHIELD, though we know that the government disowned SHIELD after the Hydra reveal anyway, despite being the government's top intelligence agency.
 
But anyway they should totally have a Thunderbolts movie led by Zemo in the future. Have it be him "turning over a new leaf" and leading some new group of heroes, except they're all totally villains and he is just trying to destroy the public's trust in superheroes entirely.

As different as he was I was so damn happy they didn't kill Zemo off.
 
thecouncil said:
When Captain America grabs that helicopter and starts pulling it back in, I wasn't sure why the audience wasn't cheering. The moment is totally set up for it and it is great.

Look at those arms!
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Just because he's a super soldier and has enhanced strength, it DOES NOT mean he can suddenly become heavier and counter the lift generated by the helicopter that was already in the air.

When he jumped and SOMEHOW weighed the chopper down enough to bring it back to the pad, that whole scene lost any good-will I was willing to give it.
 
Green Mamba said:
But anyway they should totally have a Thunderbolts movie led by Zemo in the future. Have it be him "turning over a new leaf" and leading some new group of heroes, except they're all totally villains and he is just trying to destroy the public's trust in superheroes entirely.

As different as he was I was so damn happy they didn't kill Zemo off.
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I can see them run with The Thunderbolts as being a taskforce ran by Ross to hunt down Cap's team, since The Avengers (as in, Stark's team) aren't capable of taking them in.

The Raft and Zemo now exists within the MCU, so there's seeds planted.
 
Loved it. Zemo was a better villain than I thought he'd be. I appreciated that he knew he was overmatched and wasn't out to destroy the world. I also need that Black Panther movie now. Can't wait until 2017.
 
Quick said:
I can see them run with The Thunderbolts as being a taskforce ran by Ross to hunt down Cap's team, since The Avengers (as in, Stark's team) aren't capable of taking them in.

The Raft and Zemo now exists within the MCU, so there's seeds planted.
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Yeah, I'm not totally sure how we get Zemo going from "You think I wanted more of you in the world?" to leading a group of anti-heroes/villains. But at the same time I can totally see Ross putting together the Thunderbolts as a government-backed team to replace the Avengers (since most of them are AWOL now), and they end up getting wrecked in IW when Thanos arrives.

Escape Goat said:
Ant Man's "Something just went in me!" line still has me laughing. His facial expression was great.

<3 Rudd
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"Here's your shield, Captain America."
 
Matt said:
Except that speech is just awful.

Awful.
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It's awful in context where it's like Captain America being a bullheaded asshole in the comics or if you read it as a weirdly pro-conservative thing, but in context of Cap just telling Spider-Man how he feels or Peggy telling Sharon, from the perspective of being a top woman spy in the 40s and on, I think it works.
 
Angelus Errare said:
Yea, if you were team cap at the end of this movie...something is wrong with you.
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#TeamBothWereWrong

Or... I guess both were right?

Honestly, that's what I love about this movie. Both sides were right about very important things, and also screwed up in other areas. It felt very human. Both sides had the best of intentions, and things just started to spiral out of control.

By the end, you see Cap and Iron Man beating the snot out of each other and you see Zemo up top, fulfilled that he won. He drove them to that point. He broke them.

And that's another reason why Black Panther was such a great hero. He was caught up in Zemo's mess and the heroes' personal vendettas and had the wisdom to step back, see where that path was leading, and remove himself from it. Panther was the ONLY hero able to ultimately keep his personal anguish in check at the end.

And so him being "his own side" has me super excited for his "solo" outing (which we all know at this point is going to be less "solo" and more "Panther-led with a ton of Avengers hiding out in Wakanda".
 
Cade said:
It's awful in context where it's like Captain America being a bullheaded asshole in the comics or if you read it as a weirdly pro-conservative thing, but in context of Cap just telling Spider-Man how he feels or Peggy telling Sharon, from the perspective of being a top woman spy in the 40s and on, I think it works.
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Is that the "you move" speech?

Frankly, it sounds exactly like something MCU Peggy would say.
 
george_us said:
Loved it. Zemo was a better villain than I thought he'd be. I appreciated that he knew he was overmatched and wasn't out to destroy the world. I also need that Black Panther movie now. Can't wait until 2017.
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Hate to break it to ya buddy but Black Panther's coming out February 2018.
 
Freewheelin' said:
(despite being made to look weak and redundant against Cap)
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Where in the movie did this happen? BP handled everybody he came across, but barely had a full engagement with Cap.

Wanda hexing his ass and throwing him into a wall was probably the biggest hit he took in the airport fight scene.
 
duckroll said:
I'm back from the second viewing. I hate to admit it but... yes... after seeing it again knowing exactly what happens... Captain America was wrong. He was wrong not because his ideology was wrong, but because he did not take into consideration the practicality of his decisions. He absolutely has a point about being wary about authority and giving up their operational freedom to a panel. But having a point is only meaningful if you can back that up with actions that support it and which make people see it your way. He had a point but went about everything in the wrong way. There were warning signs everywhere that he was making emotional decisions over rational ones, but it was made worse because he framed those decisions as ideological ones.

This doesn't mean Tony was right, it just means Steve made a bad situation worse by not adapting and not recognizing that he could de-escalate if he became the better man. Black Widow was absolutely right when she said "how we stay together is less important than us staying together" because being together would mean they could still talk things out and solve the problems together. Once they split up, everything went to shit.

I still support Captain America and his ideals, I think he is the better man at the end of it all, but in terms of his actions and reactions throughout the film, upon reflection, they were wrong and they made him and his best friends all wanted criminals, and made a large part of the world see that the Accords were necessary after all. :(
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I felt the same after my second viewing. Cap really started to slip after Tony revealed he was basically keeping Wanda under lock and key which Cap did not like at all. If it had been anyone other than Tony Cap probably would have flipped his shit. It did lead to a mistrust and while Cap stayed true to his ideals he might have been better off using Bucky as a shown of faith. He might have gotten Tony's help in proving Bucky's innocence earlier on and avoiding the airport battle altogether.

With Bucky behind bars Cap and Tony might not have fought in Moscow either. The bad blood would still be there but they wouldn't have come to blows. I don't think anyway.
 
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