Support NeoGAF

[BunnyLifeguard]

How ? Just looking fact wise at the differences PC version has over 360 version.

higher resolution
up to 8x AA if you wish (360 limited to 2x)
up to 16xAF (360 using NO AF at all)
All the texture settings and normal map settings can be set to "extra" (360 limited to high)

Thats all I can think off at the top of my head. Either way the game looks like shit compared to other FPS titles.

And?

Look at the system-requirements for the deluxe-version of King Kong, which equals the 360-version.

Means: to compare games released on PC/360 and make conclusions about the "hardware-power" is senseless.

 

[Chris_C]

This news is a couple of months old at least.

As a result, I hereby name it "olds".

 

[Zaphod]

This news is not as old as the PC vs Console argument.

 

[Tain]

I love how id releasing one arguably mediocre game makes them a shit developer in the eyes of the GAF ELITE.

 

[jedimike]

This news is a couple of months old at least.

As a result, I hereby name it "olds".

Which part? Using the 360 as primary development platform is certainly new. He has been quoted on his comment about multi-core CPU's in the past though.

 

[Vustadumas]

Condemned doesnt look as good as F.E.A.R - a PC title. Call of Duty 2 is also on PC and looks better despite yes, not a constant 60 FPS. But that doesnt change the fact that it looks better.

And here are some shots for you of 2 PC games from the year 2004, thats right 2 years ago, that look better than everything I have played on 360.

Give the 360 some time. The first wave of games are ports, and decent ports at that. Once dev's start tapping the power of the system, we'll see huge improvements.

I think Condemded looks good, but I agree not quite as crisp as FEAR, but Condemded is about a 100 times better game than FEAR, so I'll take the tiny graphical hit

Also, I like how you used HL2's Lost Coast level as something that came out in 2004 :lol

 

[Drek]

Good move on his part. Id won't survive if they stay so PC-centric. Its obvious that Carmack prefers MS to Sony and Nintendo, which only makes sense, after all, neither of the other two have ever called to ask his opinion on how to design a system, or use many of the same proprietary dev tools he likes to use on PC.

Its a good match, it should help Id become more relevant in the industry as a whole while giving MS some big name software. As long as the games are released in decent time and don't suck it should work out well.

 

[phonte]

Give the 360 some time. The first wave of games are ports, and decent ports at that. Once dev's start tapping the power of the system, we'll see huge improvements.

I think Condemded looks good, but I agree not quite as crisp as FEAR, but Condemded is about a 100 times better game than FEAR, so I'll take the tiny graphical hit

Also, I like how you used HL2's Lost Coast level as something that came out in 2004 :lol

i agree that the 360 will probably have better looking titles come out in the future, but condemned really doesn't look that hot.

it has some decent lighting and shadowing, but there's nothing about it that really impresses you from a graphics standpoint.

 

[phonte]

Good move on his part. Id won't survive if they stay so PC-centric. Its obvious that Carmack prefers MS to Sony and Nintendo, which only makes sense, after all, neither of the other two have ever called to ask his opinion on how to design a system, or use many of the same proprietary dev tools he likes to use on PC.

Its a good match, it should help Id become more relevant in the industry as a whole while giving MS some big name software. As long as the games are released in decent time and don't suck it should work out well.

yeah, carmack choosing the 360 as his base platform has much more to do with his relationship to ms than it does any preference for the 360 hardware.

from what is known about the ps3 as opposed to the 360, it clearly has absolutely nothing to do with hardware.

 

[Shompola]

yeah, carmack choosing the 360 as his base platform has much more to do with his relationship to ms than it does any preference for the 360 hardware.

Link to that? Or are you talking out of your ass again? Carmack has numerous times stated that he likes the Xbox 360 design more including tools etc. It is definitely a combination of preference of hardware and software. And he has allready stated that the PS3 is more powerful, so please drop it.

 

[Otto]

umm, again, carmack has absolutely no experience with either the 360 or the ps3. it's all conjecutre, at this point, so why should his opinion carry more weight than any other developer?

what he's done in the past, on pcs, matters little when it comes to what he wants to do on the 360/ps3.

carmack's opinion is a minority one, and it's apparent, from past interviews, that it's more the result of being leery of tackling the ps3 than it is thinking the 360 is a more capable system.

Uh...what the hell are you talking about?

All the articles I've read regarding Carmack and his opinion on the 360 vs. PS3 just has him saying that the capabilities between the two systems are not that great (i.e. PS3 isn't leaps and bounds more powerful than the 360).

So why shouldn't Carmack’s opinion carry a lot of weight? He knowledgeable enough to understand the specs of both system and determine what they can ultimately do, and he has not exhibited any sort bias for one system over another (having a preference for the 360 doesn't make him bias).

 

[gohepcat]

Has Lukkas been banned yet? Someone please PM me when he is so I can come back.
:lol

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Which part? Using the 360 as primary development platform is certainly new.

NO IT ISNT!
The president of ID annouced that at X05. This is very old news.

 

[Apenheul]

yeah, carmack choosing the 360 as his base platform has much more to do with his relationship to ms than it does any preference for the 360 hardware.

from what is known about the ps3 as opposed to the 360, it clearly has absolutely nothing to do with hardware.

With every post you make about Carmack I get the impression that you don't know anything about him at all.

 

[Mr_Furious]

I'll officially care when Carmack becomes relevant again.

 

[phonte]

Uh...what the hell are you talking about?

All the articles I've read regarding Carmack and his opinion on the 360 vs. PS3 just has him saying that the capabilities between the two systems are not that great (i.e. PS3 isn't leaps and bounds more powerful than the 360).

So why shouldn't Carmack’s opinion carry a lot of weight? He knowledgeable enough to understand the specs of both system and determine what they can ultimately do, and he has not exhibited any sort bias for one system over another (having a preference for the 360 doesn't make him bias).

umm, because other developers, some of whom are just as esteemed in the pc market (stein?), say otherwise?

carmack seems more like a shill for ms than anything else.

 

[gofreak]

NO IT ISNT!
The president of ID annouced that at X05. This is very old news.

Pretty much. I even remember reading these very same quotes recently (maybe not here, but elsewhere perhaps..). This is quite old news, Carmack's basically been saying this for many months now.

 

[Chris_C]

Which part? Using the 360 as primary development platform is certainly new. He has been quoted on his comment about multi-core CPU's in the past though.

I seem to remember reading about it as far back as early December though. On GamersReports I think. (and it also cropped up in an article Kikizo conducted with him as well).

 

[krypt0nian]

NO IT ISNT!
The president of ID annouced that at X05. This is very old news.

Well at least this topic exposed phonte and Lukkas as quality posters. There is that.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Gotta agree on that.

Doesn't mean I care any more for his (recent) work, or his whining (I want a 10Ghz CPU waaah, multi core is poo poo).

when did he say that? I believe he said something more along the lines of using a bunch of multiple cores for code has been a problem in CS for over 20 years. cpu workloads arent always so easy to use in a multiple core setting. Sometimes the work just isnt split up well , that would be like telling 5 people to add 3008 + 7858. With 5 people would that really be more efficient if they HAD to use all 5 people? No, one person would be more tefficent than splitting that up, mainly because you dont have to communicate between people for something so simple and sychronize that simple work. Just because you keep adding proccessors doesnt mean you keep getting the performance boost as the original. You dont get twice the power by adding another chip. He's just saying it has been a LONG standing challenge in the world of computing, getting proccessors to scale with every cpu added. It works wonders for multiple independent workloads, hence why certain apps blossom with multiple cpus.

 

[SnakeXs]

when did he say that? I believe he said something more along the lines of using a bunch of multiple cores for code has been a problem in CS for over 20 years. cpu workloads arent always so easy to use in a multiple core setting. Sometimes the work just isnt split up well , that would be like telling 5 people to add 3008 + 7858. With 5 people would that really be more efficient if they HAD to use all 5 people? No, one person would be more tefficent than splitting that up, mainly because you dont have to communicate between people for something so simple and sychronize that simple work. Just because you keep adding proccessors doesnt mean you keep getting the performance boost as the original. You dont get twice the power by adding another chip. He's just saying it has been a LONG standing challenge in the world of computing, getting proccessors to scale with every cpu added. It works wonders for multiple independent workloads, hence why certain apps blossom with multiple cpus.

Doesn't change the fact that he was whining against the future of computing.

He finds it easier to code for a single core single thread, he thinks coding for multiple cores is too hard, sucks for him. That's what's happening, that's where it's going. Others are embracing it and learning it. It's different, but it's not some huge feat that's impossible to do correctly.

Regardless, he's a whiner.

 

[thorns]

Carmack drives a ferrari f50. I doubt anyone at GAF does. Carmack wins!

 

[gohepcat]

Doesn't change the fact that he was whining against the future of computing.

He finds it easier to code for a single core single thread, he thinks coding for multiple cores is too hard, sucks for him. That's what's happening, that's where it's going. Others are embracing it and learning it. It's different, but it's not some huge feat that's impossible to do correctly.

Regardless, he's a whiner.

Bullshit. He is honest. He always has been. He's a brilliant code writer (ask any developer who has used his engine), and a great voice in the game programming world.

No one is embracing this. I was talking to a console programmer for a future 360 game and he confirms what Carmack has said. A multicore design is inherently difficult for game design. Yes it's the future, and yes it's what needs to be done, but it's going to really slow down the leaps we are used to seeing in games over the last 10 years. It's not "something that they will all just have to figure out". The returns you get from adding another core to CPU are minimal. In all honesty the PS3 is going to show this.

 

[SnakeXs]

Bullshit. He is honest. He always has been. He's a brilliant code writer (ask any developer who has used his engine), and a great voice in the game programming world.

No one is embracing this. I was talking to a console programmer for a future 360 game and he confirms what Carmack has said. A multicore design is inherently difficult for game design. Yes it's the future, and yes it's what needs to be done, but it's going to really slow down the leaps we are used to seeing in games over the last 10 years. It's not "something that they will all just have to figure out". The returns you get from adding another core to CPU are minimal. In all honesty the PS3 is going to show this.

Like I said, I didn't downplay what he's done, and what can CAN do.

Needless to say, he, is, still, a, whiner. He also said PS2 was a wreck, and impossible to code for, and guess what, it did just fine. Just because he's used to his way doesn't mean it's the only way.

I don't get why you're defending him. Are teams having trouble, yes. Are people jumping for joy over multicore stuff? Overall, no. But, like you said, that's what they have to work with, that's where this is all heading, and him whining about it and resisting does no good. Hunker down, do what you gotta do, and make it work.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

I did a search for Carmack and it came up empty... so don't rake me if old.

http://www.evilavatar.com/

Please see my sig.

< - - - Forever dumb.

 

[gofreak]

I don't get why you're defending him.

He doesn't like the idea of 100+ member teams per project. It's pretty much that simple. Or I guess, more specifically, a large coding contingent (since art demands are likely to occupy most of those team size increases, I'd guess). Fundamentally, the CPU is something of a secondary concern for him also, so really the easier it is to do what he wants the better. He doesn't want it getting in the way and occupying more time than he reckons it deserves.

 

[Lukkas]

Has Lukkas been banned yet? Someone please PM me when he is so I can come back.
:lol

still here

 

[SnakeXs]

He doesn't like the idea of 100+ member teams per project. It's pretty much that simple. Or I guess, more specifically, a large coding contingent (since art demands are likely to occupy most of those team size increases, I'd guess). Fundamentally, the CPU is something of a secondary concern for him also, so really the easier it is to do what he wants the better. He doesn't want it getting in the way and occupying more time than he reckons it deserves.

Like I said, that's fine and all, but regardless of him liking that or not, that's what's going on. I'm sounding like a broken record, but whining does nothing. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Lukkas]

People that say dual core and tri core are the wave of the future are wrong imo. I think we will revert back to single core cpus for raw power when they will be smaller than 65nm, run at much higher clock speeds while keeping cool temps, and probably an increase in L1 and L2 caches.

 

[SnakeXs]

People that say dual core and tri core are the wave of the future are wrong imo. I think we will revert back to single core cpus for raw power when they will be smaller than 65nm, run at much higher clock speeds while keeping cool temps, and probably an increase in L1 and L2 caches.

Oh Lukkas, you just never quit, do you? :lol :lol :lol

I'm still waiting for you to accept the offer... If you're around that long. :lol

 

[Lukkas]

Oh Lukkas, you just never quit, do you? :lol :lol :lol

I'm still waiting for you to accept the offer... If you're around that long. :lol

Ill accept your offer when you can display the actual FPS on a console during the entire game

 

[Tain]

Like I said, I didn't downplay what he's done, and what can CAN do.

Needless to say, he, is, still, a, whiner. He also said PS2 was a wreck, and impossible to code for, and guess what, it did just fine. Just because he's used to his way doesn't mean it's the only way.

I don't get why you're defending him. Are teams having trouble, yes. Are people jumping for joy over multicore stuff? Overall, no. But, like you said, that's what they have to work with, that's where this is all heading, and him whining about it and resisting does no good. Hunker down, do what you gotta do, and make it work.

Why is it such a big deal that he said the multicore stuff sounds like a hassle? He's clearly going to tackle it, so there's no issue.

 

[SnakeXs]

What, is that fear, or did you just choose not to read what I said?

Console frames are well documented. If that's not good enough for you, then run along.

 

[EOGamer]

I remember this console called Xbox 1 where the graphics were nearly maxed out with launch titles like DOA 3, Halo, and Rallisport 1.

All those games were surpassed in the years following their release. They looked good for the time, but all 3 of them were surpassed on Xbox by either games from the same series or games from other developers, like Riddick, or the amazing Doom 3 port. Or the progressively better looking Splinter Cell games.

 

[tedtropy]

People that say dual core and tri core are the wave of the future are wrong imo. I think we will revert back to single core cpus for raw power when they will be smaller than 65nm, run at much higher clock speeds while keeping cool temps, and probably an increase in L1 and L2 caches.

Make this man the President of GAF! :lol

 

[Lukkas]

What, is that fear, or did you just choose not to read what I said?

Console frames are well documented. If that's not good enough for you, then run along.

Well documented ? WTF does that mean. If a console game was running at an actual fps of 40 and the game developer told you it runs at a butter smooth 60 you would believe them because its very hard to tell.

Most console games that claim to be 60 FPS, with the exception of some fighters and racers, actually run between 30-60 the entire time.

 

[Lukkas]

Make this man the President of GAF! :lol

You laugh but Ill be sure to bump this thread a year from now when AMD comes out with some sick CPU for their new AM2 board that ISNT a dual core, but rather 65nm single core that outperforms anything out there with the exception of multitasking.

 

[SnakeXs]

Well documented ? WTF does that mean. If a console game was running at an actual fps of 40 and the game developer told you it runs at a butter smooth 60 you would believe them because its very hard to tell.

Most console games that claim to be 60 FPS, with the exception of some fighters and racers, actually run between 30-60 the entire time.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

*catches breath*

:lol :lol

Thanks, I needed that.

Now, really, run along now.

 

[Lukkas]

:lol

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

*catches breath*

:lol :lol

Thanks, I needed that.

Now, really, run along now.

sure keep believing what you believe if it makes you feel better :lol

 

[Tain]

Well documented ? WTF does that mean. If a console game was running at an actual fps of 40 and the game developer told you it runs at a butter smooth 60 you would believe them because its very hard to tell.

No, it isn't.

 

[tedtropy]

You laugh but Ill be sure to bump this thread a year from now when AMD comes out with some sick CPU for their new AM2 board that ISNT a dual core, but rather 65nm single core that outperforms anything out there with the exception of multitasking.

Yeah, I'm thinking AMD's going to be be pretty content with improving their Athlon 64 X2 line for awhile yet to come. Have you somehow not noticed Moore's Law hitting a brick wall when it comes to processor speeds? I doubt that situation is going to be much improved in a year's time and think dual/multi cores are going to be the future for awhile. But you go ahead and bump this thread in a year, I'll bring the Wal-mart brand crazy party wine.

 

[hadareud]

Lukkas reminds me of somebody. Ahh, yes!

ROG27 in this thread of pure comedy:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=65443&highlight=element+720p

 

[dark10x]

How ? Just looking fact wise at the differences PC version has over 360 version.

higher resolution
up to 8x AA if you wish (360 limited to 2x)
up to 16xAF (360 using NO AF at all)
All the texture settings and normal map settings can be set to "extra" (360 limited to high)

Thats all I can think off at the top of my head. Either way the game looks like shit compared to other FPS titles.

Well, those features do not come cheap on the PC (with CoD2)...

However, if you want a more technically accomplished game, check out Perfect Dark. Hoenstly, I don't much care for the game and it does have performance issues at some points, but it is doing a number of things that have yet to appear on the PC in any game to date...

 

[Mrbob]

ID focus has *always* been the PC in the past. ID hasn't worked first hand on a console game before. Their next game (Which is *new*, and not Doom 4), being based on 360 is big news. Of course with GAF being mostly console based not many people care.

Condemned doesnt look as good as F.E.A.R - a PC title. Call of Duty 2 is also on PC and looks better despite yes, not a constant 60 FPS. But that doesnt change the fact that it looks better.

And here are some shots for you of 2 PC games from the year 2004, thats right 2 years ago, that look better than everything I have played on 360.

Far Cry - Came out in March 04

Half Life 2 - End of 04

Wow Farcry is really showing its age. Doesn't look nearly as good as I remember.

Also, you are showing pics of HL2 LOST COAST, the HDR enabled add on which was only released a couple months ago! Not in 2004. This isn't even part of the main game. You also forgot to mention that if you want to play HL2 Lost Coast, you need to buy a 300+ dollar video card alone on top of all the other equipment you buy. There is no doubt HL2 Lost Coast looks great. I've played it first hand on my 9800PRO without HDR and it looks fantastic. But this has more to do with Vavle's great artists than it does with hardware prowess.

360 is already surpassing this with the impending release of GRAW. You want your HDR? You got it. Put to the best use of any game I've seen.

 

[Lukkas]

No, it isn't.

A percentage of console games labelled as "60 FPS" may actually do it, but those will be games with very controlled conditions, like a fighting game or racing game. An FPS is one of those genres where there's too many variables to eliminate fluctuations.

 

[tedtropy]

Also, you are showing pics of HL2 LOST COAST, the HDR enabled add on which was only released a couple months ago! Not in 2004. This isn't even part of the main game. You also forgot to mention that if you want to play HL2 Lost Coast, you need to buy a 300+ dollar video card alone on top of all the other equipment you buy.

Yeah, I've already called him on that one. Naturally he had no response. To be fair though, Lost Coast ran fine on my $150 Geforce 6800.

 

[Lukkas]

Well, those features do not come cheap on the PC (with CoD2)...

However, if you want a more technically accomplished game, check out Perfect Dark. Hoenstly, I don't much care for the game and it does have performance issues at some points, but it is doing a number of things that have yet to appear on the PC in any game to date...

Lol it sure does

 

[Tain]

A percentage of console games labelled as "60 FPS" may actually do it, but those will be games with very controlled conditions, like a fighting game or racing game. An FPS is one of those genres where there's too many variables to eliminate fluctuations.

I know that.

But it isn't hard to tell when a game has an irregular framerate that isn't reaching 60.

 

[Lukkas]

ID focus has *always* been the PC in the past. ID hasn't worked first hand on a console game before. Their next game (Which is *new*, and not Doom 4), being based on 360 is big news. Of course with GAF being mostly console based not many people care.




Wow Farcry is really showing its age. Doesn't look nearly as good as I remember.

Also, you are showing pics of HL2 LOST COAST, the HDR enabled add on which was only released a couple months ago! Not in 2004. This isn't even part of the main game. You also forgot to mention that if you want to play HL2 Lost Coast, you need to buy a 300+ dollar video card alone on top of all the other equipment you buy. There is no doubt HL2 Lost Coast looks great. I've played it first hand on my 9800PRO without HDR and it looks fantastic. But this has more to do with Vavle's great artists than it does with hardware prowess.

360 is already surpassing this with the impending release of GRAW. You want your HDR? You got it. Put to the best use of any game I've seen.

What is 360 surpassing if GRAW is also going to be on PC and probably look better, control better, support more players, support custom maps and mods, etc.

 

[Lukkas]

Anyways this has been fun and all, but I had more fun in the original anal retentive PGR2 30 fps Vs 60 thread, so I am now going to exit this and bump with pics/videos as I have been asked when oblivion and graw hit PC