Aztechnology
Member
Why do people have such a hard time grasping the concept of upscaling.
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CBOAT: ESRAM handicap for now, but will get better
- Thread starter nhlducks35
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Why do people have such a hard time grasping the concept of upscaling.
something fishy
Member
oo.. the son of Bill Gates.. doesn't want to have to work at Dads business so trying to get the darned thing to fold!!
untruefacts right there!
Are those things going to be practical for multiplatform development though?
something fishy
Member
all those engineers, all that work to get a certain architecture.. they should have just asked gaf.
"stick a few bit in a box, job done gov"
That's what unconventional means in console architecture; Saturn, PS2 and PS3 were all highly unconventional.
They both will. It's going to be a long gen.
Aztechnology
Member
This has been talked about so much... is it possible yes, will it be done? Highly unlikely. Why you ask? Consistency, developers do not like to develop for a large variety of machines. MS and Sony can't do forced obsoletion either. So what you would have is a wide range of systems sporting different capability levels over time. Developers then have to develop and test for multiple systems to see how they handle the game....remind you of any other systems? They really don't want you making that comparison trust me, that line is becoming razor thin... gimped pc stigma isn't good for business.
Between PC and PS4 yes. on XB1? to an extent.
PC probably won't have hUMA but it will have the brute force to overcome that obstacle.
scytherage
Member
Baiting more console wars, I see.
Aztechnology
Member
I like your sense of hUMA...
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
so basically... the xbox one is like the ps3
MysticGoujon
Banned
Why were you talking about TV scalers then? The Xbox outputs at 1080p, the Xbox does the scaling. My point remains, only very few people can tell Ryse is not 1080p, the game looks jaw droppingly good and has a very high IQ. Simple.
MysticGoujon
Banned
Is this in reference to me, or him?
-50% power compard to it's competitioner and with less stellar first party studios, yeah. But it has Kinect.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
No shit it's crytek.
Gameplay... however............
That's not what I was going at.
They're still releasing native 1080p footage for Ryse btw, you haven't seen it at 900p yet unless you've played it in person:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=87271798&postcount=61
MysticGoujon
Banned
Crytek themselves said they upscale the game to 1080p, I'd expect all footage to be released at 1080p.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, it's true. The One architecture is truely subpar for gaming applications.
Using slow 8GB DDR3 ram was the only way to gurantee 8GB ram for an acceptable price for 2013 at the beginning of the developement. Everything else is the result of this decision.
It has nothing to do with good or bad engineers but it was a decision of the management.
MysticGoujon
Banned
Well maybe, but thats not the question here.
something fishy
Member
The tiled resources thing in dx 11.2 maybe? That and auto management of the Esram once the drivers do it?
The footage is not being released upscaled to 1080p, it is rendered natively at 1080p and released at 1080p, all of the official footage released is not from an xbox one, look at the post I linked to.
EDIT:
the game will be 900p native upscale to 1080p
They are releasing footage at 1080p native
Developers learning how to exploit the hardware. It's mostly the unusual memory architecture devs need to figure out.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
Excuse my technical unsavvyness but wasn't it hinted that the xone would be able to implement some form of huma ?
It can implement a less optimized imitation, which can use the same techniques but at a less efficient rate.
That's what I meant about to an extent, for instance the Fluid Dynamics on PS4 looked to be updating at maybe 20 updates per second, which if implemented on xbox one would only be able to run at an increased update time and so would get less updates per second, depending on the hit of performance it may be jarring to see it updated less times per second.
MysticGoujon
Banned
I see what you're saying, and that's worrying if true, but Microsoft have said this is captured directly from the Xbox One, and considering they made the effort to clarify that it's 900p before, I have to believe they're telling the truth again here.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Dude it is poorly designed...
they shit a billion transistors worth of gpu die space away on 32MB of edram, just to make up for the slow main ram.
5 billion transistor APU and they end up with 1.18TF of gpu power
meanwhile a 6.1billion transistor GPU die has 5.6TF of gpu power on pc
A 1.2b transistor haswell cpu is also well over twice as powerful than the cpu in the xbone apu
If you can have almost 5x the gpu performance and over 2x the cpu performance than what they achieved, with only 40 percent more transistors, that means they fucked up.
A lot...
crytek is lying, pixel counting does not lie.
+ the image quality in the trailers is not just 1080p, there isn't a hint of a trace of a whiff of aliasing in them, it's most likely some very high resolution downsampled to 1080p.
You are being lied to and by believing them you set yourself up for dissapointment.
PdotMichael
Banned
No.
The PS4 will be forever significantly faster than the Xbox One. The effective gap is just bigger now than the theoretical on paper gap.
You almost got me.
Nope, it's more like developers will have to work harder to keep their games from falling as far behind their PS4 equivalents. Even if you ripped the ESRAM out of the system and replaced the system memory with GDDR5 the GPU is just slower, period.
Edit: I thought Chinner might be serious, for once.
Xbox One will make devs work harder for less performance.
Xbox One 'has more room to grow' because it's starting off from a lower base relative to its potential.
There's plenty of headroom for software growth on PS4, but devs can enter at a more reasonable level of performance from the start.
MysticGoujon
Banned
How much exactly, would those equivalent systems have cost on a PC? I'm guessing nearly as much as the entire Xbox One itself.
I love cboat, but here I do not agree.
it is only reasonable to understand that for good teams, the fidelity of the xbone STARTS with ryse and forza.
it is only reasonable to expect some kind of progress as both these games are day 1 games.
so, "720-900 being the norm", I have my doubts there when speaking longtime.
xbone still is an underpowered piece of shit for my personal tastes, but I think its powerful enough to provide some exclusives I will enjoy.
like I said back in spring, last generation we had one wii, this generation we have three of them.
for multiplatform games, for those of us that want high fidelity, I dont think we are going to do fine with xbone, nor with ps4 for that matter....
it is only reasonable to understand that for good teams, the fidelity of the xbone STARTS with ryse and forza.
it is only reasonable to expect some kind of progress as both these games are day 1 games.
so, "720-900 being the norm", I have my doubts there when speaking longtime.
xbone still is an underpowered piece of shit for my personal tastes, but I think its powerful enough to provide some exclusives I will enjoy.
like I said back in spring, last generation we had one wii, this generation we have three of them.
for multiplatform games, for those of us that want high fidelity, I dont think we are going to do fine with xbone, nor with ps4 for that matter....
travisbickle
Member
EsRAM is the albatross around its neck, but no even if it rids itself of the albatross it still has a gammy leg and a hernia compared to the PS4.
PuppetMaster
Member
The whole point of huma is to have a SINGLE fast pool of memory accessible by both the GPU and CPU while maintaining concurrency.
The only kind of huma xbox one can implement is a single SLOW pool of DDR3. And this is the reason why it does not make any sense to force the xbox one to design games around a huma design. You really need to take advantage of the fast esram to make up lost ground due to the slow DDR3. Not get caught up in buzz words that do not apply well like huma.
Then click the link and read the thread, It could be from xbox one, one Idea is that they are cutscenes(either in engine or pre rendered), targeted to be similar to gameplay but with much bit cleaner IQ, we really don't know what we're seeing, but we do know it's native 1080p
I should be doing hw
Member
There's no need to take their word for it when you can check the resolution for yourself, which is what others have done already.
Foghorn Leghorn
Unconfirmed Member
I think it's the whole package. It's all balanced as they say. There isn't a piece that designed for 1080p.
MysticGoujon
Banned
I did read the post, and the cut-scene scenario is a worrying one, however I'd prefer to take the word of people in the know rather than someone on a forum doing some maths, even if it's very convincing. I'll be playing the preclocked version of Ryse tonight anyhow, so I'll make my mind up there.
shinra-bansho
Member
Wait, they're still releasing native 1080p media? :/
So it's a PC build then presumably?
Or alternatively cutscenes are pre-rendered at higher IQ using in-game assets?
gaming_noob
Member
This is a very weak update from CBOAT. Please share a little more.
I'm curious... Does anyone remember (I forget which company) mentioning they believe 720 will be the norm next gen? Some video card manufacturer. Mentioned Avatar in 720p would still look amazing. Said next gen would focus on IQ.
Remember, folks? I can't find the fucking article but it was discussed here. How telling.
Remember, folks? I can't find the fucking article but it was discussed here. How telling.
deputyspade
Member
I wouldn't judge a game's quality based on some pre-rendered trailer. Go try to find an xb1 kiosk and play the game for yourself. You need to see the game playing on their xb1 hardware.
SneakyStephan
Banned
.... are you even trying to understand?
They have very little actual performance to show for their transistor budget, so it's poorly designed.
But I'll humor your attempt at deflecting the logic:
the cost is decided by the size of the die
a 6.1billion transistor die on the same process node comes from the same wafers that would be used for the 5billion transistor die for the xbone apu
yields would be somewhat lower as a bigger die = more chance of having a fault on each die cut from the wafer.
20 percent bigger die for the gpu would cost maybe 40 percent more? depending on yields (as the die gets bigger yields drop exponentially, which is why the giant 5billion transistor die with embedded esram is a SHIT idea for a low end apu like what the xbox one uses)
the small 1.2billion transistor chip for the cpu would have much better yields, and cost 20 percent or less of the big xbone chip...
add some small costs for the more complex pcb to connect the two..
They have this huge apu that has very little performance and costs a lot to make...
MS are spending almost as much on their apu as amd spend on manufacturing their new flagship gpu, and they get nothing to show for it
again: poorly designed
I'm sure this isn't what MS or AMD engineers wanted, but if the suits told them to make it work without vram, then this is what they had to do...
now the lion's share of their cost goes to the esram, the mandatory parts that make up the rest of the box (mobo, cooling, disc reader , kinect, hdd and all the baseline costs to make a full box) and only a small percentage actually goes to gaming performance.
To use the xbox one's own meme, it's not a very balanced design for cost/performance
