Talking specially about XBoners. Waving XBone epenis'
If you want 1080p that much get a PC or PS4. Choice, it's a good thing.
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CBOAT: ESRAM handicap for now, but will get better
- Thread starter nhlducks35
- Start date
Talking specially about XBoners. Waving XBone epenis'
If you want 1080p that much get a PC or PS4. Choice, it's a good thing.
Seems like a Somy advantage to me. Their first party studios were much stronger this generation and, if multiplats are now better on their platform as well, seems like a huge loss for MS.
SwiftDeath
Member
Pretty much. I'll get a cheaper XB1 or may just get a used one sometime next year
GillianSeed79
Member
Okay this got me. I'm imaging CBoat in an office somewhere in Redmond just stewing or something. So, I'm assuming Thuway was an insider, but he got banned because he had only one source? FamousMortimer is the guy that spearheaded the NoPS4Drm thing right? CBoat is the professional deep throat though. In CBoat we trust.
Just be careful man. With the launches this close you've got to be doubly careful. We all love you, but don't fly too close to the flame. You are a saint, but I don't want to see you get martyred.
Actually, I'm sure you are fine. I.m just paranoid because I'm imagining some Zero Dark Thirty scene in Redmond where Balmer is torturing people to find out who Cboat is.
hooijdonk17
Member
I'm kind of certain cboat is bill gates himself.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
I'm not too technically inclined but I'll try to help. For 1) I believe that the eDRAM was indeed limited to a function set, so there wasn't much to 'decide' on how to use it. The eSRAM, if I understand, is much more flexible. This is a blessing and a curse. It can be used for far more functions, but it doesn't come with the benefit of being made for a specific function. Therefore, there's more to 'learn' in handling the eSRAM as opposed to the eDRAM.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to even address the second part without making some stupid errors. Sorry.
Dombrowski
is responsible for the well-being of this island.
I'm getting an XB1, but I won't be buying any 720p games next gen. I've been playing 1080p@60fps since forever on my PC, I could live without the 60fps, but going back to 720p is unacceptable, especially when gaming on a 60 inch TV.
I expect a res bump with each gen, being ok with 720p next gen is like being ok with 480p games on PS360.
I expect a res bump with each gen, being ok with 720p next gen is like being ok with 480p games on PS360.
I don't think the average consumer is that upset with 900p that this system will be some big failure because of it's rendering resolution. People are buying this for the games and also the additional entertainment value of the system. In the grand scheme of things most of the buyers don't care whether the game is 900p upscaled or 1080p as long as it plays fine and looks fine.
It will cost any company a lot of money to continue their console business, in the grand scheme of things to both MS and Sony the game divisions are much smaller than other divisions, both have plenty of money in reserve. Both will continue on. Look at MS who had billions invested with the original Xbox that took a long time to recover and Sony who was hemorrhaging money with the PS3 for years (only to have PS3 become the dominant console). Potentially the ESRAM may become a huge bonus of the One once more developers understand how to use it.
Their last system was out 8 years before the next one was introduced. We won't see a new Xbox for a very long time after the One comes out. If they did it would kill their credibility as people would feel like their console purchases were not safe (since the last system wouldn't have been supported very long). XB1 won't turn out to be the failure so many people on the internet think it will be.
So basically slight improvement over time as the dev tools get better and the speed of development may improve over time...
I think it mostly just reaffirms the nasty position of the x1, not alot of positivity there.
When compared to ps4 we know it should be much much faster to develope for as its tools rippen and the quality can only muliply over time.
720p - 900p the norm sucks. Had to be the esram.
I think it mostly just reaffirms the nasty position of the x1, not alot of positivity there.
When compared to ps4 we know it should be much much faster to develope for as its tools rippen and the quality can only muliply over time.
720p - 900p the norm sucks. Had to be the esram.
andromeduck
Member
not entirely true, smart use of ESRAM and cache can increase pipeline efficiency quite a bit
but 50% over any meaningful period of time is stretching it
The eDRAM on the 360 had additional fixed-function features, but it was mainly a dedicated, fast piece of memory to hold render targets. This is basically what the XB1's ESRAM is there for. In contrast to the 360's eDRAM, the XBO's ESRAM shares a common memory address space with main memory from the GPU's point of view, but that doesn't really change its most reasonable use cases which is still holding render targets.
Die-size was most probably chosen with costs in mind. You design everything around that restriction, and balancing (*g*) the number of CUs and the amount of eSRAM is surely something that you do at the same time. Although it seems pretty obvious to me that 16MB of ESRAM would have been way too small. 40MB-48MB would have definitely been an advantage, but that apparently would have cost too much die space.
For comparison, Intel uses a L4 cache of 128MB of eDRAM for its Iris Pro 5200 iGPU on the same package. There was a quote from them on Anandtech that 32MB would have also been "ok", but then again you don't target 1080p when you design an iGPU mainly for notebooks.
I would think so, it doesnt look like a big system hog anyway.
Or The "Situation Room" lol
Thanks
Well the discussion seems to have gone under the assumption that while X1 devtools will improve over time, PS4 will remain the same through and through and that just can't be right, can it? I mean, even Killzone devs have said they've just "scratched the surface" of what the machine can do.
Even 15% is stretching it.
ESRAM will be used mostly for Framebuffer that will fit practically every MB there is.
People paid $600 for the PS3 and wasn't even getting 720p on a lot of games.
What happens when PC lead engines get more complex and even PS4 has to drop its resolution to cope? Can there be a situation where Xbox can't even sustain 720p, or would they drop details first? It just feels like if they're struggling already, they have no headroom to deal with further advances in game engines.
shinra-bansho
Member
The way I understand it from tidbits people like Matt have leaked.
Media apps/Snap/OS functions etc. needed lots of RAM...
=>8GB relatively slow DDR3
=>32MB ESRAM
=>less die space
=>14 CUs with two disabled for yield
Essentially, all come as a consequence of the desire to "conquer the living room."
You can throw Kinect in every box into the mix as a BoM opportunity-cost as well, competing with silicon budget.
And likely directive from on high that the box must be profitable at launch restricting overall BoM.
I know people can do it with actual handwriting but you can be identified by typing style too?
hooijdonk17
Member
I've pointed this out earlier (possibly in another topic); the basic achitecture for the two systems is the same, an x64 CPU and a GCN GPU running on pooled memory. Most improvements the devs can squeeze out of the Bone will also help to get extra milage out of the PS4. The PS4 will always be a moving target out of reach. The real question is will the Bone be able to deliver the baseline of what the consumer expects, and how will those expectations change when they see the PS4..
SwiftDeath
Member
Hey I just looked at my calendar and strangely the year says 2013 not 2006
But yeah sure that's the same thing
Sony paid $850 to bring that console to us at $600. Blu-ray players were $1k at the time and the PS3 had hdmi, wifi, and played 3 generations of Playstation games using internal components of those systems.
There's no way MS is taking anything close to a loss like that. Not sure they're talking a loss at all. So no, it's not the same thing.
This holds little significance aside from historical information. 2006 is done and gone my friend.
Not sure how you managed to take that from this thread.
I wouldn't doubt it. Words you use, common mistakes, etc.
And with the kind of info he's given out at times I'd be stunned if they haven't tried to find him.
bigboss370
Member
good post.
As someone who bought a PS3. None of that made paying 200 dollars more for a console with inferior versions of games any better, especially when some ports where gimped to the point of missing essential features like voice chat.
hooijdonk17
Member
All this made no difference for people who wanted to play the new-get games as best they could, so they decided to wait on the Blu-Ray, thought Wi-Fi wasn't all that hot and saw they could play their 2 generations of old PS games on 2 generations of old consoles, saved $200 and bought an XBOX 360.
Do you see a pattern?
Why would you be playing two copies of the same game side by side though?
Really this all just feeds into our insecurities. Knowing that someone out there is playing this game in a higher resolution? How dare they! 900p will be fine. Heck, 720p with nice IQ will be fine too. Some PS4 games will probably be 900p too (or an equivalent like 1280x1080)
MysticGoujon
Banned
I'm pretty sure Microsoft said in that DA article that the ESRAM could be managed automatically like before, if the developer didn't want to optimise it themselves. I can't understand why it's so complicated for the developers, unless of course there drivers are very immature.
hooijdonk17
Member
This makes no sense, by that logic people wouldn't have minded buying a car with worse milage/performace/comfortability for the same money either. It doesn't work that way. You don't have to see them side by side, you just need to know that one is better than the other. It doesn't matter whether you learned that through personal observation, or through media, internet, word of mouth etc. Consumer goods like gaming consoles are highly substitutable products, if you know one of them offers a better value proposition, you buy it. The whole "So what if the other version is 1080p, 720p will still look good" argument holds no water when you factor in rational consumer behavior. You will hear that irrational sentence only from people who are already invested in the system, because that's what consumers do, become irrationally attached once they became wrongly invested.
By your logic, why are people still not buying 360s and 720p HDTVs? Are they not good enough? The only people who argued 720p was 'good enough' were people who bought 720p HDTVs early in the adoption cycle, i.e. idiots like myself. Then everyone flocked to 1080p (rationally) once they were widely available.
We are at the beginning of a generation. The inferior and superior product are launching together. Consumer sentiment is growing, and people are getting informed. When, not if, people know the inferior product, they will steer away.
I'm already curious to see what Naughty Dog will come up with and what second generation games will look like (probably like The
Order?)
I don't mind someone playing a game with 4 times the pixel count as me, so long as they didn't pay $100 less to do it.
Take away the ram and ESRAM which is clouding the issue. Let's assume for a moment that Xbox has amazing, mature tools that gets the most from the ESRAM and can max out the GPU.
You still have a lower powered GPU than the PS4.
So right now the ESRAM appears to be a bottleneck. But when they get past that, you get to the real bottleneck (in terms of any kind of parity with PS4). No matter how efficient the ram, you will simply not be able to do as much with Xbox one.
900p is a really smart compromise. Most people won't notice - especially if the Xbox is their only machine, and it is enoug of a drop in pixels to help bridge that gap in performance.
People buy cars with worse mileage all the time, because they like the badge, or their friend has one, or it has comfortable seats. People 'make do' all the time, and once they've purchased, they don't even know or care.
MysticGoujon
Banned
Quite. If you said to people, Xbox One plays Ryse, and PS4 plays KZ:SF, people aren't going to feel conned, not in the slightest. They both look out of this world and one a similar footing, and only the 0.001% of gamers can actually tell the resolution difference with the naked eye.
Xbox One "classic", you say? oh brother!! First the system needs to "earn" that title of "Classic" and that simply does not look that will happen. The entire idea is outlandish bro..it'll NEVER happen. Props for keeping positive, though
On a side note: MS will do just fine as long as they deliver the "games" ...most people will not really care about the 900p thing..720p being the norm though? Hmmm... i think that is a short term problem that will be fixed later,not sooner though
Chobel
Member
I read the DF article and I don't remember MS saying that.
EDIT: I'm reading that article now and I still can't find it.
hooijdonk17
Member
Do not try to generalize exceptional cases. Consumers are largely rational, money does not grow in trees. People do not buy cars with worse milage all the time. They buy it because they have to sacrifice while making product decisions; that may be because they don't have enough money for the better option, it may be because the inferior product offers a benefit that the superior product does not (better speed or comfort, better aftersales etc.) or lastly because they are uninformed - but they don't buy the worse offering because they enjoy buying crap.
As for your points; first of all, while brand loyalty is a factor the amount of differentiationg software between the two consoles is at an all time low. Secondly, making do has nothing to do with the situation at hand considering the inferior product is also the more expensive, so you are not relegated to a poor choice due to inadequate purchasing power. Lastly, 'once they've purchased' is completely irrelevant because nobody has invested in the consoles at this point.
fallen_dawn
Member
Microsoft insider who leaks a lot of gaming related info early. The writing style is supposedly to protect his identity.
EDIT: Here's a list (from a couple of months ago) of what he had leaked, and had been confirmed