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Cenk Uygur and Sanders Campaign Advisor Launch the "Justice Democrats"

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I want to say that starting a liberal version of the tea party is exactly the wrong thing right now and that this kind of divisiveness and purity pogromming hurt us in 2016. But the Republicans did the same thing and didn't suffer for it so who knows?

Start it within the Democratic party...it's what the Tea Party did. Run challengers in the primaries against establishment Democrats, have discussions with fellow Dems (and anyone else willing to engage) in your home, at the cafe, at town meetings, in the work place, at the local school team sports event.

The money will come, there's no denying that. PAC's spring up all the time, and are pretty good at fundraising. Have folks with the knowhow reach out to prospective liberal donors and cultivate their willingness to contribute real dollars that can be used by campaigns during election season. Fund events, fund get togethers.

There's a pretty clear path to making a difference, and the numbers are, in fact, on our side. I don't want to see the Democratic Party split, lose a good chunk of its base to a new third party, and screw themselves out of the numbers game. What we need is change within, and talking to people on the local level is what's going to do that.

https://www.obama.org/

A good place to start. Get inspired, and be the change you want to see.
 

televator

Member
I don't think some of you "any Democrat is better than a Republican always" people are thinking this through, you're in a FPTP system. If you're only criteria is that they be strictly better than a Republican that is exactly what you'll wind up (Democrats just barely better than their opponents) with because there are votes in moving towards the Republican if they know they definitely won't ever lose your vote.

Thats not pragmatism, that's losing. Especially since Republicans have demonstrated the willingness to move further to the right in response and then redefine the centre as halfway between the new positions.

Yeah, not even bothering to primary candidates before an election cycle, and even worse abhorring the idea as "purity testing" sounds like a full on surrender to the on going encroachment of full conservatism in the Democratic Party.

At one point in the past, the Dems were conservative and the Reps were the wild populists. Things shift and it's entirely possible, if not inevitable that we just end up with 2 conservative parties if things keep going the way they are.
 
I don't think some of you "any Democrat is better than a Republican always" people are thinking this through, you're in a FPTP system. If you're only criteria is that they be strictly better than a Republican that is exactly what you'll wind up (Democrats just barely better than their opponents) with because there are votes in moving towards the Republican if they know they definitely won't ever lose your vote.

Thats not pragmatism, that's losing. Especially since Republicans have demonstrated the willingness to move further to the right in response and then redefine the centre as halfway between the new positions.

OMG this. 1000 times.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
Yeah, not even bothering to primary candidates before an election cycle, and even worse abhorring the idea as "purity testing" sounds like a full on surrender to the on going encroachment of full conservatism in the Democratic Party.

At one point in the past, the Dems were conservative and the Reps were the wild populists. Things shift and it's entirely possible, if not inevitable that we just end up with 2 conservative parties if things keep going the way they are.

Could you imagine if the Republicans decided to bite one bullet and push for some legit, Scandinavian-style healthcare system? Does anyone think, with all the brainwashing that's been taking place, any fiscal conservatives (no such thing) would jump ship to the Democrats? Lolno. You think social conservatives will switch? Lol hell no. If they're willing to do one single, solitary thing to prop up the social safety net, they'll own this country. Full stop. Game over. Fascism and all.
 
Could you imagine if the Republicans decided to bite one bullet and push for some legit, Scandinavian-style healthcare system? Does anyone think, with all the brainwashing that's been taking place, any fiscal conservatives (no such thing) would jump ship to the Democrats? Lolno. You think social conservatives will switch? Lol hell no. If they're willing to do one single, solitary thing to prop up the social safety net, they'll own this country. Full stop. Game over. Fascism and all.

Very insightful. If you look at Trump's statements on healthcare, it's not totally out of the question. First, he praised the Canadian system in the early GOP debates saying "it works very well". Later in the debates, he awkwardly rephrased the GOP talking point about eliminating "the lines around the states". That would be a bad move, laying the foundation for a national health insurance cartel beyond what we currently have. He hasn't made those statements since as far as I recall.

His more recent statements have been harder to decode, but generally on the progressive end of elite DC debate. Largely ignored in his post-pissgate presser was this statement about negotiating drug prices:

Pharma, pharma has a lot of lobbies and a lot of lobbyists and a lot of power and there's very little bidding on drugs. We're the largest buyer of drugs in the world and yet we don't bid properly and we're going to start bidding and we're going to save billions of dollars over a period of time.

And on insurance itself, he's made statements implying a preference for a universal system:
We’re going to have insurance for everybody. There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can’t pay for it, you don’t get it. That’s not going to happen with us.

Obviously it's a crapshoot what to believe from Trump. The guy is incredibly inconsistent, and frequently lies. But the notion that a Republican, proto-fascist president is making public noises about a truly universal program should seriously concern liberals.

More detail here:
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/315387-what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-trumps-healthcare-plans
 
Uh, Tulsi Gabbard made a secret trip to Syria, met with Assad, & wont disclose who paid for her trip. Just saw her on CNN repeating Trump-like talking points about Assad's opposition, how they're all Islamic terrorists and the US should stop funding them.
Is this woman fucking nuts? She let President Assad use her as a propaganda tool.
 
Uh, Tulsi Gabbard made a secret trip to Syria, met with Assad, & wont disclose who paid for her trip. Just saw her on CNN repeating Trump-like talking points about Assad's opposition, how they're all Islamic terrorists and the US should stop funding them.
Is this woman fucking nuts? She let President Assad use her as a propaganda tool.

was just gonna come in here. Needs to be target one if they want to be taken seriously
 

legacyzero

Banned
Uh, Tulsi Gabbard made a secret trip to Syria, met with Assad, & wont disclose who paid for her trip. Just saw her on CNN repeating Trump-like talking points about Assad's opposition, how they're all Islamic terrorists and the US should stop funding them.
Is this woman fucking nuts? She let President Assad use her as a propaganda tool.
Ouch. What an odd pick by Bernie. And yeah Progressives can't stand for that shit
 
Uh, Tulsi Gabbard made a secret trip to Syria, met with Assad, & wont disclose who paid for her trip. Just saw her on CNN repeating Trump-like talking points about Assad's opposition, how they're all Islamic terrorists and the US should stop funding them.
Is this woman fucking nuts? She let President Assad use her as a propaganda tool.
One reason I just can't bring myself to take Bernie too seriously. She is complete shit.
 

dramatis

Member
There is a curious Republican-like refrain from certain posters.

If you do nothing but complain about how the system doesn't work, and then it fails because you break it, why do you get to stand up and talk about how you have all the real answers at the end of the debacle?

Does this not resemble the act that Republicans pull in claiming that government doesn't work, then they do their best to make it dysfunctional, and then claim how they were right at the end?
 
There is a curious Republican-like refrain from certain posters.

If you do nothing but complain about how the system doesn't work, and then it fails because you break it, why do you get to stand up and talk about how you have all the real answers at the end of the debacle?

Does this not resemble the act that Republicans pull in claiming that government doesn't work, then they do their best to make it dysfunctional, and then claim how they were right at the end?

obviously it's different for them because Their Cause is Just, which is totally unlike how the republicans think they're doing what's right
 
There is a curious Republican-like refrain from certain posters.

If you do nothing but complain about how the system doesn't work, and then it fails because you break it, why do you get to stand up and talk about how you have all the real answers at the end of the debacle?

Does this not resemble the act that Republicans pull in claiming that government doesn't work, then they do their best to make it dysfunctional, and then claim how they were right at the end?

That assumes that the people trying to break the system thought it was working before. This is unlikely.

Its like the self- proclaimed pragmatic Clinton voters complaining about radical Greens voters being unwilling to compromise. Which has a kind of obvious answer : they are radicals , by your own words, so they aren't going to compromise, if you're so pragmatic why didn't you compromise ?

The error with both of these is that they assume that, at some deep fundamental level, everyone shares your opinion and acts otherwise because they are stupider than you or to spite you, which is false.
 
was just gonna come in here. Needs to be target one if they want to be taken seriously

She was already getting heat last time around from LGBT groups for her questionable positions/campaign donations (Human Rights Campaign endorsed her primary opponent), so I suspect she'll face a pretty serious challenge in 2018.
 

televator

Member
There is a curious Republican-like refrain from certain posters.

If you do nothing but complain about how the system doesn't work, and then it fails because you break it, why do you get to stand up and talk about how you have all the real answers at the end of the debacle?

Does this not resemble the act that Republicans pull in claiming that government doesn't work, then they do their best to make it dysfunctional, and then claim how they were right at the end?

Genuinely curious. Which posters are responsible for breaking the system?
 

KRod-57

Banned
Is that something you can count on? From what we saw in the primaries, Sanders, who tended to poll much, much higher in likability than Clinton, and he still had difficulty getting people to actually get out in vote for him.

Primaries are closed elections in most states, meaning you need to be registered to the specific party in order to vote for the candidate(It is also important to note that more people identify as Independent than Republican or Democrat), where as general elections are completely open. No matter your party affiliation, you can vote for the candidate you like
 
Genuinely curious. Which posters are responsible for breaking the system?

Anyone who doesn't want to vote for absolute whoever the Democrats decide to run, no matter what. Or who criticises them in anyway. Or predicts they are a poor choice, since if they lose its your fault for saying they are a bad choice.
 
Anyone who doesn't want to vote for absolute whoever the Democrats decide to run, no matter what. Or who criticises them in anyway. Or predicts they are a poor choice, since if they lose its your fault for saying they are a bad choice.

And the people doing this most of the time didn't do what it takes to get their person elected anyway. How many in HillaryGaf went out of their house to do door to door canvassing, voter registration, phone banking, organize solidarity marches, etc.

A few will probably pipe up now, but we all know theyre in a tiny minority.
 
Obamacare: take what you can get, not what you want. Pragmatism sucks, right?

"Pragmatism" that is about to be immediately undone.

Jobs? Welcome to the Thunderdome, bitch. Nobody guaranteed that the 1950s would last forever.

Attitude like this is why the Democrats have lost election season after election season since 2010. The Republicans realized they were becoming largely irrelevant so they shifted tactics to adapt and actually win elections again, which they have to increasingly large degrees and brought us to the shitshow we're in now.

The Democrats said "nothing's wrong!" even as they now hold zero power in D.C. - Liberal meritocracy is a two-way street and it's long past time to accept responsibility for the colossal failure in ideology and organizing. Yet at this rate it's going to be Cory Booker in 2020 running on a platform of privatizing all the schools and god knows whatever "free market" shitshow he pushes to line the pockets of people who already cashed in on Trump.

Uh, Tulsi Gabbard made a secret trip to Syria, met with Assad, & wont disclose who paid for her trip. Just saw her on CNN repeating Trump-like talking points about Assad's opposition, how they're all Islamic terrorists and the US should stop funding them.
Is this woman fucking nuts? She let President Assad use her as a propaganda tool.

To be fair, the Obama Administration did end up arming and backing al-Qaeda in Syria. A really winning tactic, I tell ya.
 

Zoe

Member
Primaries are closed elections in most states, meaning you need to be registered to the specific party in order to vote for the candidate(It is also important to note that more people identify as Independent than Republican or Democrat), where as general elections are completely open. No matter your party affiliation, you can vote for the candidate you like
Maybe more people would register for the parties if they felt their interests were addressed.

But still, most isn't all, and in a state like Texas where the primaries aren't closed, this would be a good thing.
 

faisal233

Member
"Pragmatism" that is about to be immediately undone.



Attitude like this is why the Democrats have lost election season after election season since 2010. The Republicans realized they were becoming largely irrelevant so they shifted tactics to adapt and actually win elections again, which they have to increasingly large degrees and brought us to the shitshow we're in now.

The Democrats said "nothing's wrong!" even as they now hold zero power in D.C. - Liberal meritocracy is a two-way street and it's long past time to accept responsibility for the colossal failure in ideology and organizing. Yet at this rate it's going to be Cory Booker in 2020 running on a platform of privatizing all the schools and god knows whatever "free market" shitshow he pushes to line the pockets of people who already cashed in on Trump.



To be fair, the Obama Administration did end up arming and backing al-Qaeda in Syria. A really winning tactic, I tell ya.

Bullshit. If Justice Democrats want any credibility, they can start with Tulsi.
 
I would actually note that on the topic of 1950s jobs lasting forever, that is actually exactly what people were promised , the 1980s / early 90s deregulation and privatization spree wasn't repeatedly voted in on a platform of "You'll are going to lose your jobs now", People were promised milk and honey without the terrible hand of government holding back the market.
 

faisal233

Member
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/tulsi-gabbard-secret-syria-trip-233762

Rep. Tulsi Gabbard’s office won’t say who is paying for the Hawaii Democrat’s controversial trip to Syria and Lebanon this week.

Gabbard spokeswoman Emily Latimer said the trip wasn’t funded using taxpayer dollars and was approved by the House Ethics Committee but wouldn’t provide further information when pressed by POLITICO.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/21/trump-eyeing-democrat-tulsi-gabbard-administration/

President-elect Donald Trump’s first meeting Monday was with Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, a Hawaii Democrat known for bucking her party and challenging President Obama on confronting radical Islamic terrorism.
Ms. Gabbard, an Army veteran who serves on the House Armed Services and Foreign Affairs committees, is believed to be under consideration for a post at the Defense Department, State Department or the United Nations.

http://mauitime.com/news/politics/w...in-denouncing-trump-appointee-stephen-bannon/

Though Rep. Tulsi Gabbard is a rising star within the Democratic Party, ultimately endorsed Hillary Clinton for president (after first endorsing Bernie Sanders, of course) and easily won reelection this year, she’s been ominously quiet on the issue of President-elect Donald Trump’s appalling appointees and nominations. Most notably, her signature did NOT appear with 169 of her colleagues in the House of Representatives on a Nov. 16 letter to Trump denouncing his nomination of notorious white nationalist Stephen Bannon to be his “chief strategist” (this Mother Jones profile explains in nauseating detail how Bannon has long championed white supremacists).

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/something-disturbing-about-tulsi-gabbard

There's something disturbing about Tulsi Gabbard.

Gabbard has something of a dissident stance within the Democratic party. She resigned from the DNC during the primaries over claims of bias against Bernie Sanders. She very conspicuously met with President-elect Trump a couple weeks ago. She's very critical of President Obama's foreign policy which she calls a "neo-con" foreign policy. These all seem like reasonable critiques, though not all ones I'd agree with.

But she just answered a question on CNN that struck me as very troubling and made me see some of her earlier comments in a different light. It was about the number of generals Donald Trump is putting in senior cabinet positions.


I have added emphasis to passages I think are particularly important.

TAPPER: Quickly before you go, I know that some of your colleagues, democrats, have expressed concern about too many retired generals being in the trump cabinet. You have the national security adviser general Flynn and he's talked about general Mattis and general Kelly at the Pentagon and homeland security. Do you share their concerns or disagree?
GABBARD: I don't share their concerns. As a veteran and as someone still serving in the Hawaii National Guard, I found it pretty offensive for people to outright discriminate against veterans. Here you have generals who have literally spent their whole lives serving our country, putting service before self, putting their lives on the line to defend democracy. Yet people are criticizing them and discriminating against them saying, just because you served as a general previously you are disqualified from serving in a high position of leadership in our government. These people, arguably, have put far more on the line and are far more deeply personally committed to upholding and protecting our democracy than their critics.
I certainly don't think she was addressing me. But I think the criticisms I outlined earlier today are similar to the ones she is addressing. I have seen no one say that former generals can't serve in high level government positions. Generals routinely serve. No one is saying anything like that. So right there she's tendentiously distorting the concerns. Certainly, no one is 'discriminating' against anyone.

The criticism is centered on how Trump's cabinet is dominated by recently retired generals. National Security Advisor, Defense Secretary, Homeland Security Secretary, possibly Secretary of State. That slate is unprecedented in all of our history. More might conceivably be added.

The issue of civilian control of the military and wariness of military or ex-military influence over the civilian government isn't some new-fangled idea from coastal cosmopolitan elites. It's deeply rooted in the American political tradition. Indeed it was even more potent earlier in the country's history. That's why ex-generals are actually barred from serving as Secretary of Defense for seven years. Mattis needs a specific waiver. Indeed, the importance of military subordination to civilian government and the penumbra of concerns like the one we're discussing here are deeply inculcated in the U.S. military's officer corps itself — for obvious reasons.

There's no law against what Trump is doing (except kinda with the Sec Def choice). But it's an issue. It's a very legitimate criticism, whether there might be some extenuating or unique reasons for doing it in this case.

The real kicker in my mind comes at the end when Gabbard says that these men are "far more deeply personally committed to upholding and protecting our democracy than their critics." The suggestion here is not about the particular individuals, who I believe are deeply committed to America and its democratic institutions. But what Gabbard is suggesting here is that as generals they are more committed than civilians.

That is the kernel of an idea that has destroyed many democracies, the idea that career military officers are simply better, more patriotic, more efficient than civilians. That is a deeply dangerous idea that needs to be snuffed out whenever it raises up its head. It is completely at odds with the entire American tradition.

It's something I'd expect to hear from some militarist Fox News yahoo. Not from an elected members of the House, certainly not from a Democratic member of the House.

Tulsi attacking Obama admin for not using term "Radical Islam":
https://video.foxnews.com/v/4066735173001/?playlist_id=930909826001#sp=show-clips

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...amic_ideology_thats_fueling_these_people.html
Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard (Hawaii) appeared on Friday's broadcast of CNN's The Situation Room to once again call out the Obama administration for not identifying "radical Islamic ideology" as the cause for recent terror attacks.
 
That assumes that the people trying to break the system thought it was working before. This is unlikely.

Its like the self- proclaimed pragmatic Clinton voters complaining about radical Greens voters being unwilling to compromise. Which has a kind of obvious answer : they are radicals , by your own words, so they aren't going to compromise, if you're so pragmatic why didn't you compromise ?

The error with both of these is that they assume that, at some deep fundamental level, everyone shares your opinion and acts otherwise because they are stupider than you or to spite you, which is false.


So your proposed solution is that 65 million Democrats should switch to the Green (a party run by a moron and probably Pro Putin) instead?
 

royalan

Member
As we start wading into this Trump era, it is becoming quite clear that there are few Democrats in Congress that don't realize the surge of anger and drive to resist that's fueling the Democratic party right now. We don't want to work with Republicans. We want to block them as much as humanly possible, because nothing that have coming down the pipeline is good for the American people. Nothing.

Warren is finding herself on the shitlist. So is Sanders. Booker. Schumer.

We're angry. We're angry over social justice (and not JUST economic justice).

Democrats who refuse to learn that lesson should lose their seats.

I'd pay more attention to "Justice Democrats" if they actually moved toward that goal, and weren't just the "Who Supported Bernie Democrats" under a new name.

Tulsi needs to go.
 

S1lent

Member
I don't think some of you "any Democrat is better than a Republican always" people are thinking this through, you're in a FPTP system. If you're only criteria is that they be strictly better than a Republican that is exactly what you'll wind up (Democrats just barely better than their opponents) with because there are votes in moving towards the Republican if they know they definitely won't ever lose your vote.

Thats not pragmatism, that's losing. Especially since Republicans have demonstrated the willingness to move further to the right in response and then redefine the centre as halfway between the new positions.

Nailed it.
 
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