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[sonomamashine]

Following Mark Cerny's highly technical PS5 deep dive, a great number of questions remained, particularly after the PlayStation 5 system architect revealed how the next-generation console from Sony featured variable clocks based on AMD's SmartShift technology for laptops.

Game developers have been used to optimize their games for fixed clocks, which led many (including Digital Foundry's John Linneman) to imagine this would most likely be a problem.

However, in a follow-up interview with Digital Foundry published on Eurogamer two days ago, Cerny clarified the PS5 won't have any such problem as it will be all handled automatically by the system.

Developers don't need to optimise in any way; if necessary, the frequency will adjust to whatever actions the CPU and GPU are performing. I think you're asking what happens if there is a piece of code intentionally written so that every transistor (or the maximum number of transistors possible) in the CPU and GPU flip on every cycle. That's a pretty abstract question, games aren't anywhere near that amount of power consumption. In fact, if such a piece of code were to run on existing consoles, the power consumption would be well out of the intended operating range and it's even possible that the console would go into thermal shutdown. PS5 would handle such an unrealistic piece of code more gracefully.

That said, the PS5 system architect confirmed the console devkit's support for fixed clocks as that can be helpful during game development. Still, he added that all PlayStation 5 titles will be exploiting the SmartShift-based technology upon release in order to maximize power.

Regarding locked profiles, we support those on our dev kits, it can be helpful not to have variable clocks when optimising. Released PS5 games always get boosted frequencies so that they can take advantage of the additional power.

How did Sony manage to get such high 'boost clocks' on the GPU, anyway? Even our own Usman from the hardware team was skeptical on how the PS5 could maintain a peak 2.23GHz GPU frequency often enough. Cerny did mention finding a 'hotspot' of frequencies as one of the breakthroughs in the console's design phase.

One of our breakthroughs was finding a set of frequencies where the hotspot - meaning the thermal density of the CPU and the GPU - is the same. And that's what we've done. They're equivalently easy to cool or difficult to cool - whatever you want to call it.

Cerny: Devs Don't Have to Optimize in Any Way for PS5's Variable Clocks, It's All Automatic

Mark Cerny clarified that game developers don't have to optimize in any way for PS5's variable clocks, as everything occurs automatically.

wccftech.com

 

[ethomaz]

That is from Eurogamer it is old.

 

[Mendou]

Richard from Digital Foundry stated that devs he talked to were already maximising the GPU performance while sacrificing CPU performance. I'm too lazy to find the exact place where he said it, but the point is that it isn't as 'automatic' as you think.

 

[Andodalf]

Cerny literally said that games that draw too much power will see less performance, and games will now have to optimized around a power threshold

Mark Cerny sees a time where developers will begin to optimise their game engines in a different way - to achieve optimal performance for the given power level. "Power plays a role when optimising. If you optimise and keep the power the same you see all of the benefit of the optimisation. If you optimise and increase the power then you're giving a bit of the performance back.

 

[TGO]

Richard from Digital Foundry stated that devs he talked to were already maximising the GPU performance while sacrificing CPU performance. I'm too lazy to find the exact place where he said it, but the point is that it isn't as 'automatic' as you think.

Not exactly

Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores.

 

[Hostile_18]

Who ever said the following on these boards said it best;

"The power is there for developers to use.. as long as they dont need it"

 

[alucard0712_rus]

With all this salt, realistically - Zen CPU's are much, much more powerful than Jaguar from this gen,
I can't see CPU bottlenecking whole system anytime soon, or even becoming common bottleneck.
Simply PS5 CPU power is more than enough for GPU to perform at max frequency most of the time.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

Spoken like a true systems architect.

 

[Whitecrow]

I think theres a missunderstanding here.

I think Cerny means that devs wont have to write code thinking about if it will overheat the system, since ps5 avoids it automatically.

But of course, devs will balance the power between the cpu and gpu as they see fit for each scenario.

 

[ZywyPL]

That said, the PS5 system architect confirmed the console devkit's support for fixed clocks as that can be helpful during game development. Still, he added that all PlayStation 5 titles will be exploiting the SmartShift-based technology upon release in order to maximize power.

I think it's possible that the dev-kits will be less powerful than retail units, without the boos tech, with fixed clocks like 3.4/2.1 or even 3.3/2, and that's what the devs will target, whereas the retail units thanks to boost will have some additional headroom, that extra power available whenever a scene gets extremely demanding and the framerate is about to drop.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Who ever said the following on these boards said it best;

"The power is there for developers to use.. as long as they dont need it"

Damn that’s good

 

[VFXVeteran]

I thought we already knew this. They can't mess with the clocks.

 

[sonomamashine]

I thought we already knew this. They can't mess with the clocks.

I thought you where gone, wtf are you doing here.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I thought you where gone, wtf are you doing here.

What are you talking about?

 

[GlassAwful]

I guess what he's saying is that the machine will automatically drop performance and frames, the dev's don't have to design in a drop in performance.

Unlike other ungraceful machines where the devs work really hard to tank performance, the PS5 will do it for them! Thanks Mark, you god-damned genious!

 

[Clear]

You guys do get that when coding stuff, there is no absolute limit on performance right? You simply add function until you can no longer stay within your frame-time budget, so the whole notion of "dropping performance" makes absolutely zero sense!

The point Cerny is making is that the power/frequency setup automatically self-adjusts in order to supply the most resource as required. Very useful as situations where every cpu and gpu core is saturated are almost nonexistent in practice. Hence giving the system more power when it needs it.

 

[darkinstinct]

I thought you where gone, wtf are you doing here.

Why are you attacking the only insider that was correct?

 

[makaveli60]

I already asked this in another thread but got no answer... maybe here. So if power draw is constant = fan speed is constant = temperature is constant, then what happens if I use the machine for like 3 years? It collects dust, will be harder to cool etc... Will I get more frame drops since the sysem has to lower the clocks more than it had initially to keep the preset temperature?

 

[Rightisright]

Every time Cerny tries to clear up a situation he leaves it more confusing than before he said anything.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Every time Cerny tries to clear up a situation he leaves it more confusing than before he said anything.

Yup. And this is exactly what happened in 2013 when MS execs were getting hassled with Q&A until launch. Shoe on the other foot.

No matter how many times a question is answered, gamers and press kept coming with repetitious kinds of dirt digging.

All Spencer has done lately is a cheesy Skype meeting with IGN's McCaffrey answering snowball questions with vague answers while grinning the whole time.

Cerny is partly to blame though. He dug himself the ditch going into technical analysis paralysis. So tech nerds want more info and clarification. MS promoted key specs, some videos, form factor and put up an online glossary. MS even showed the controller. That's enough to get everyone off their backs and MS even did their showcase two days before Cerny.

 

[ZywyPL]

Every time Cerny tries to clear up a situation he leaves it more confusing than before he said anything.

Hermen Hulst needs to step up the stage and clear this shit up for real.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Hermen Hulst needs to step up the stage and clear this shit up for real.

Cerny is the most technical. And he's the lead architect so it's his baby.

I don't see how Hermen Hulst, Jim Ryan or any other exec would be able to get technical clear things up.

That's probably why none of them have said anything. It's basically Cerny answering everything by default.

 

[skneogaf]

It seems like a bad way to do things but he definitely knows what he's doing so I'm really looking forward to seeing it in action.

Its still strange that zero video game footage has been shown and it 7 months or so away.

 

[Clear]

Yup. And this is exactly what happened in 2013 when MS execs were getting hassled with Q&A until launch. Shoe on the other foot.

No matter how many times a question is answered, gamers and press kept coming with repetitious kinds of dirt digging.

All Spencer has done lately is a cheesy Skype meeting with IGN's McCaffrey answering snowball questions with vague answers while grinning the whole time.

Cerny is partly to blame though. He dug himself the ditch going into technical analysis paralysis. So tech nerds want more info and clarification. MS promoted key specs, some videos, form factor and put up an online glossary. MS even showed the controller. That's enough to get everyone off their backs and MS even did their showcase two days before Cerny.

I dunno, just seems to me a case of technically ignorant people making ignorant comments because they have nothing better to do.

 

[Mista]

So its basically maximising GPU while sacrificing CPU??

 

[kittoo]

I already asked this in another thread but got no answer... maybe here. So if power draw is constant = fan speed is constant = temperature is constant, then what happens if I use the machine for like 3 years? It collects dust, will be harder to cool etc... Will I get more frame drops since the sysem has to lower the clocks more than it had initially to keep the preset temperature?

They did answer it in a roundabout way. The way I understand it its only power draw that is constant. They did say that otherwise different people with different ambient temperatures will get different performance. So temperature can go up and down but power draw limit will make sure it never overheats at a reasonable range of ambient temperatures and gives same performance to everyone.
Admittedly, it is very confusing and the overall gist i am getting is that Sony indeed screwed up at least a little as far as power of the system goes. Good systems are never this complicated to explain. Or maybe their communication is horrible. But that usually happens when your system is not upto the mark, like MS last generation. How clear was Sony about PS4 and how MS kept fumbling. This seems exact opposite this time.
Overall, to me it seems that Cerny is hinting at is that there will almost never be a possibility of using both CPU and GPU simultaneously at their full clocks. But since that kind of scenario never really happens in a game, it doesnt matter. So if the scene is GPU bound the GPU will be at full clock and CPU will be downclocked to remain within power budget, and vice versa. And the system will do this juggling automatically.
Of course i am not a developer, but as per my understanding, wouldn't a developer prefer to know the absolute max he can stretch the system at every level? Adding a dymanic power shift between CPU and GPU will complicate things for a developer, no? Wouldnt they then just optimize for the minimum assured frequencies so that they dont have to worry about the dynamic stuff? And by all accounts, that means optimising for ~9TF GPU level for PS4? Or keeping the GPU at full but CPU at lower frequencies, something Digital Foundry hinted at?
I hope i am wrong, but it shouldn't be this complicated to explain otherwise, like MS where we know exactly how everything will work.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So its basically maximising GPU while sacrificing CPU??

Both. cpu and gpu can fluctuate. cpu is not locked at 3.5 and gpu is not locked at 2.23 no matter who claims it.

Unveiling New Details of PlayStation 5: Hardware Technical Specs [UPDATED]

Watch live for a deep dive into PS5's system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.

blog.us.playstation.com

CPU: Variable frequency, up to 3.5 GHz

GPU: Variable frequency, up to 2.23 GHz (10.3 TFLOPS)

 

[Samanosuke Akechi]

I’m starting to get the feeling PlayStation will perform very bad this next gen. Xbox will be the preferred platform going forward.

Could be wrong but they haven’t felt like the same sony for awhile.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Cue the people who think they know more than Mark Cerny

 

[Mista]

Cue the people who think they know more than Mark Cerny

Point them out. Because all I am seeing are people asking questions

 

[Rightisright]

I’m starting to get the feeling PlayStation will perform very bad this next gen. Xbox will be the preferred platform going forward.

Could be wrong but they haven’t felt like the same sony for awhile.

I think it will still do well. I dont think theres any doubt XSX is the superior peice of kit, with alot of extra stuff like ML, VRS and more RT compute cores, however, X one X was also superior in every way over PS 4 Pro, including GPU, CPU and 50% more and faster RAM and more bandwidth, and yet it wasn't that perceivable to the average punter.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Who ever said the following on these boards said it best;

"The power is there for developers to use.. as long as they dont need it"

There's going to be so much crow to be served later this year smh (that's if the consoles aren't delayed due to covid)

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I think it will still do well. I dont think theres any doubt XSX is the superior peice of kit, with alot of extra stuff like ML, VRS and more RT compute cores, however, X one X was also superior in every way over PS 4 Pro, including GPU, CPU and 50% more and faster RAM and more bandwidth, and yet it wasn't that perceivable to the average punter.

PS4 and Xbox One I think are pretty close in US NPD. Xbox got killed in other countries. Even UK didn't do great when 360 did great there.

If SeX can do great with games and price they can gain ground in the US, but I don't see them making much traction overseas except maybe get some UK back.

PS5 will outsell SeX. The gap now is roughly 100M vs 50M. It can grow if SeX bombs. But it can shrink if SeX catches on.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Point them out. Because all I am seeing are people asking questions

They aren't hard to find

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

There's going to be so much crow to be served later this year smh (that's if the consoles aren't delayed due to covid)

Mmmm crow smothered in SSD secret sauce

 

[Hobbygaming]

I’m starting to get the feeling PlayStation will perform very bad this next gen. Xbox will be the preferred platform going forward.

Could be wrong but they haven’t felt like the same sony for awhile.

PS5 will be another 100 million, top selling console for Sony and it's going to be a beast

 

[Hobbygaming]

Mmmm crow smothered in SSD secret sauce

It will be

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I’m starting to get the feeling PlayStation will perform very bad this next gen. Xbox will be the preferred platform going forward.

Could be wrong but they haven’t felt like the same sony for awhile.

Sony still has a much stronger brand name worldwide. I think Xbox will do way betternext gen than this gen, but Sony will still outsell them and be the “preferred console”. I mean look at PS3 and 360, it got pretty much every advantage MS could want and in the end PS3 still outsold it.

PS5 will be fine. It’s not as strong as XSX but it’s still great hardware.

 

[Mista]

I see the defence mode is already on. Disengaging

 

[thelastword]

Yup. And this is exactly what happened in 2013 when MS execs were getting hassled with Q&A until launch. Shoe on the other foot.

No matter how many times a question is answered, gamers and press kept coming with repetitious kinds of dirt digging.

All Spencer has done lately is a cheesy Skype meeting with IGN's McCaffrey answering snowball questions with vague answers while grinning the whole time.

Cerny is partly to blame though. He dug himself the ditch going into technical analysis paralysis. So tech nerds want more info and clarification. MS promoted key specs, some videos, form factor and put up an online glossary. MS even showed the controller. That's enough to get everyone off their backs and MS even did their showcase two days before Cerny.

No one is on Sony's back except Xbox fans..... Sony fans have perfectly understood what Cerny said..... It is only Xbox fans who need a translator.... They can only understand TF.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

No one is on Sony's back except Xbox fans..... Sony fans have perfectly understood what Cerny said..... It is only Xbox fans who need a translator.... They can only understand TF.

Oh really? So there aren’t hundreds of posts on this forum from people claiming to be PS5 early adopters that still seem to have questions about Cerny’s approach?

It’s just Xbox fans?

 

[Kenpachii]

Following Mark Cerny's highly technical PS5 deep dive, a great number of questions remained, particularly after the PlayStation 5 system architect revealed how the next-generation console from Sony featured variable clocks based on AMD's SmartShift technology for laptops.

Game developers have been used to optimize their games for fixed clocks, which led many (including Digital Foundry's John Linneman) to imagine this would most likely be a problem.

However, in a follow-up interview with Digital Foundry published on Eurogamer two days ago, Cerny clarified the PS5 won't have any such problem as it will be all handled automatically by the system.


That said, the PS5 system architect confirmed the console devkit's support for fixed clocks as that can be helpful during game development. Still, he added that all PlayStation 5 titles will be exploiting the SmartShift-based technology upon release in order to maximize power.


How did Sony manage to get such high 'boost clocks' on the GPU, anyway? Even our own Usman from the hardware team was skeptical on how the PS5 could maintain a peak 2.23GHz GPU frequency often enough. Cerny did mention finding a 'hotspot' of frequencies as one of the breakthroughs in the console's design phase.

Cerny: Devs Don't Have to Optimize in Any Way for PS5's Variable Clocks, It's All Automatic

Mark Cerny clarified that game developers don't have to optimize in any way for PS5's variable clocks, as everything occurs automatically.

wccftech.com

Men this cerny tries his best.

"we support fixed clocks also guys".

So basically it's throttle the box.

In before the usual arm chair tech youtube experts come and shit on my posts because it doesn't favor there plastic box.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

This just goes to show that a fixed system is universally better. All that has happened with the PS5 is the introduction of convolution for the developers because Sony is too proud to just take the compute L and lower clocks to a level of fixed stability.

Who cares if it lands at say 3.5Ghz on the CPU and 9.X teraflops on the GPU, it will still be a fine system, and it will be an easier development environment. This whole variable clocks nonsense is just damage control, that's all it is.

 

[Vawn]

I REALLY hope we are able to find these in stores this year with all that's going on. I'm ready for next gen - especially PS5.

 

[TLZ]

Every time Cerny tries to clear up a situation he leaves it more confusing than before he said anything.

That's what happens when non-devs, non-technical armchair analyst gamers try to understand dev talk. Falls on deaf ears, misunderstood and spun the wrong way.

 

[Windows-PC]

Who ever said the following on these boards said it best;

"The power is there for developers to use.. as long as they dont need it"

Awesome

 

[wordslaughter]

Member when PS5 clocks would throttle "but only like 2% at most"

Barely worth mentioning that developers won't have to optimize for the PS5's variable clocks if that were the case.

 

[CatLady]

There's going to be so much crow to be served later this year smh (that's if the consoles aren't delayed due to covid)

Hmmm, a lot of people in the Next Gen Spec thread said the PS5 was 13.3TF (back when TFs mattered) and that the people supporting the GitHub leaks would be eating crow. We all saw how that turned out; GitHub folks weren't the ones being served crow.

 

[Silver Wattle]

I don't think talking about it is helping, just show it already.

Ideally Sony would just use 40 CU's @ ~2150Mhz sustained clocks for similar power consumption but provide 11 Tflops, use a larger GPU die in a revision for better binning, just take the L.

Having said that, I plan on buying a PS5 even if they change nothing.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Hmmm, a lot of people in the Next Gen Spec thread said the PS5 was 13.3TF (back when TFs mattered) and that the people supporting the GitHub leaks would be eating crow. We all saw how that turned out; GitHub folks weren't the ones being served crow.

What you said has nothing to do with his post lol