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[Spieler Eins]

I've subscribed to them years ago because of movie rankings, reviews and AVGN being occassionally okay-ish.
Now that they've started mostly doing discussion videos, I get the impression that they kind of are dimwits. It's not something to get out of this video alone, but when they do bigger talks, it usually feels like 12 year olds philosophizing. Then they usually keep repeating their shallow nonsense, as if it needed further explaining. On top of that is their gullible belief that ,,everything was better back in the day/why don't they make things like on the SNES forever?".

 

[zelas]

I wonder if half the people in this thread would still be criticising Cinemassacre's methods if the results were what they wanted to read (that everyone could tell the difference/chose the Pro)?

With their track record I would question them no matter what on these type of issues. Having exposed themselves more and more outside of their fictionalized content its become super apparent where their genius lies and doesnt lie.

I could say worse.

 

[Back-In-Black]

OMG, It's like listening to two old grandpas trying to figure out this new fangled video game thing. The thing is why would anybody listen to their opinion because they obviously aren't up to date with modern video games. For example, they thought that Godzilla game "looks great".
.

Ugh, that was painful. You really kind find a clearer example of going into something already hating it and looking for every little thing to reinforce your initial conception.

 

[Triplicates]

I understand the critique of their methodology, but I wonder if the results would basically be the same if they did the comparison with more games and test subjects.

 

[Diablohead]

I've subscribed to them years ago because of movie rankings, reviews and AVGN being occassionally okay-ish.
Now that they've started mostly doing discussion videos, I get the impression that they kind of are dimwits. It's not something to get out of this video alone, but when they do bigger talks, it usually feels like 12 year olds philosophizing. Then they usually keep repeating their shallow nonsense, as if it needed further explaining. On top of that is their gullible belief that ,,everything was better back in the day/why don't they make things like on the SNES forever?".

I followed them for AVGN back in the day but now it's mostly fluff videos but I can see why they make them, within a few hours they have 250,000 views most of the time.

I watched their atgames megadrive review yesterday and... it was bad, not the device but how they spoke about it and hardly showed off it's games and flaws, they didn't even test a real cartridge in the included slot and if they did, they would know that not all carts work (games with the vr chip, some random games do not render) and they never once spoke about the poor sound emulation which is really noticible in sonic.

 

[Bucket-o-roadkill]

I'd love to see what kind of input lag Mike has with the set up he's got. Just so he can his 20 or so (no, really) consoles set up all at the same time, they're all daisy chained into some bizarre a/v cabling nightmare.. Just right in the middle of what looks like his lounge.

 

[adamsapple]

"20% couldn't tell the difference"? I honestly expected that number to be higher.

20% is surprisingly low, if 80% of the people can tell a difference in the two consoles, then that's a significant difference.

No offence to the staff at Cinemassacre, but this is kind of a dumb video. Most of the people who they got for the video didn't seem like they'd associate with anything video games. My wife isn't a gamer and to her PS2 and PS4 games look the same.

I understand the critique of their methodology, but I wonder if the results would basically be the same if they did the comparison with more games and test subjects.

That's the point, they needed more people and more games. Uncharted 4 is already an extremely well optimized game for OG PS4. It's one of the 'lesser' Pro upgrades imo.

 

[Three]

I understand the critique of their methodology, but I wonder if the results would basically be the same if they did the comparison with more games and test subjects.

if these people had no interest in IQ, or games for that matter, then no it probably won't make much of a difference. Truth of the matter is a lot of people from the general public wouldn't even care for fidelity but those who care would notice. Show them PS4 and a PS3 Call of duty ghosts and they wouldn't care either they may even say they played something similar on their iPhone. Give the general public a crappy pair of headphones and play the same song, again most people wouldn't care. If you have little interest in tech or quality then you don't really notice to begin with because you are more interested in the song or the shapes on screen to notice if those $$$ quality headphones are worth it or that $$$ PC. The general public is far more susceptible to marketing than they are tech.

 

[Fafalada]

I agree though that now the Pro seems like a somewhat poor idea, at least with the content that it's out there.

Eh - it plays at the same market that picks the most expensive Phone revision out of the 2-3 available, or GTX 1080 over 1070, or 2500 Surface Book over 2000 one etc.
The differences are subtle at best - trivial at worst - but there's a contigent of marketplace that cares about them, and these product cater for it (not to mention other market manipulation benefits like price anchoring).

Also what's fascinating is how so much of "media" response has been centered on making Pro stand out as something radically different (which probably only helps its adoption). It should be compared to selling unmodified hw with "Elite" tag or bigger HDD on it - if it outperforms those, it's already doing what's intended to do.

 

[Prithee Be Careful]

A premium product aimed at a particular niche group doesn't have much appeal with a broad cross-section of the general public... who'd have thunk it, eh?

 

[Maxrunner]

How dare they doubt of the pro power?

 

[Tripolygon]

How dare they doubt of the pro power?

Said no one in this thread.

However, what some people are saying is that their methodology to this "experiment" is flawed.

A proper experiment would define what PS4 Pro is and what market it is catering to. According to PlayStation PS4 Pro is a console for console gamers who are interested in buying a more powerful console especially during the mid-gen point. They are likely to migrate to PC with more powerful hardware.

Their experiment is

1. Invite my neighbors, some of whom don't have any interest in video games. As shown in the video they don't even know the difference between PS4 and PS4 Pro specs-wise.

2. Pick a game that looks really freaking good on regular PS4, where the PS4 Pro upgrade is just a 2,560 x 1,440 resolution bump upscaled to 4K. Then ask said gamers which looks better on what appears to be a 42 inch vizio TV.

3. Conclude PS4 Pro is pointless.

I agree though that now the Pro seems like a somewhat poor idea, at least with the content that it's out there. Things might change if developers start targeting the Pro and the regular PS4 receives gimped-ass versions of games.

Are we seeing the same content that is out there? We are consistently seeing
1. Higher resolution and sometimes even native 4K
2. Higher or more consistent frame-rate even at higher resolutions
3. Much better effects at same resolution and sometimes even at higher resolutions

Conclusion? Its not pointless nor poor idea and evidence corroborates it.

 

[Beerman462]

The point is that they were asked if they thought it was WORTH $150 more. That's extremely subjective, there is no need to get scientific over it looking for objective answers. Sample size is small etc.

Anyway, it's harder to tell in motion. Not that it matters. You can't expect the casual customer to care soo much about 1440p over 1080p.

This.

You can get a PS4 slim bundle with Uncharted 4 for $250. That's damn good deal compared to the Pro. At that point a Pro is 60% more expensive with out a game. If you bought a Pro and any newish game(UC4 $50)it's 80% more expensive. That's getting close to double the price for some thing that for a lot of people won't really matter. I understand some people will not give a shit about UC4 so it won't factor in the value, but for most it will. In fact if you consider the UC4 pack in to be worth the $50 retail price of the game, you're looking at a PS4 that's half the price of the Pro.

 

[Sitris]

Why would you be in the market for a new PS4 if you already have a PS4?

I won't be able to take my current Ps4 with me when I move, so I'll need to buy a new one. Might as well shell out the extra dollars to get the best that I could get, preferably in a game bundle I don't already own!

 

[Jobbs]

I think the comparison was pretty useless. Most average people (non-enthusiasts) aren't going to be able to tell the difference between 4k and 1080p. That's quite understandable. For those people -- Non enthusiasts -- I wouldn't recommend they upgrade because they probably won't get a lot out of it right now.

I upgraded primarily for the better performance in certain games (The Last Guardian is huge) and because I know that in the future games will utilize the new specs in a more pronounced way.

I knew what I was getting when I upgraded and I'm perfectly happy with it. Incidentally, Rise of the Tomb Raider is a night and day difference on Pro vs. regular (high framerate mode!). resolution differences may not always be a huge deal, but framerate differences are transformational.

 

[gookie_grisp]

I mean, it's pretty obvious the Pro was for more hardcore gamers in the first place, not sure how talking with average people is going to accurately represent the audience actually playing the game.

As a gaming enthusiast, the upgrade just doesn't seem viable after all the digital foundry videos. There is a very minimal upgrade, a quite a lot of people do not own a 4k TV.

 

[nasanu]

The upgrade is not worthy for the average gamer.

Kind of why it's called Pro and not Average...

 

[Breads]

2016 and early adopter syndrome persists.

There is no compelling reason to get a PS4 pro right now if you already have a PS4. The idea is that as long as developers stick to making ps4 pro optimizations the hardware improvements will make themselves known from here on out. That's how incremental hardware improvements work in closed environments like this. The effects won't be immediate. It will be down the line. The best you can hope with is some PS4 pro patch that makes some use of the extra power but you won't see much. And due to the lack of proper optimization techniques some games might actually suffer with the change in hardware. So, unless you're an enthusiast, it's safe to sit this one out for now.

I for one have no regrets and got a PS4 with the understanding that the effects won't be immediate. The ball is now in Sony's court to prove me right or wrong.

(Side note: I sold my PS4 a year ago because I had no time to use it. Saw the pro for $340 on amazon during Cyber Monday and it felt like a more future friendly purchase than the slim for $90 less).

 

[Nibiru]

The way they tested this is not ideal but it still made the point imo. People who bought the pro will defend their choice but there is no need to. If you are happy with it then that's great. I do agree that for most people it is currently unnecessary, that said I do think that eventually many games will seem to almost require the pro or you will get crappy frame rates but by then there will probably be a pro-slim.

 

[Tripolygon]

As a gaming enthusiast, the upgrade just doesn't seem viable after all the digital foundry videos. There is a very minimal upgrade, a quite a lot of people do not own a 4k TV.

Two things in your post are factually wrong.

1. Digital foundry videos conclude that it is a viable upgrade
2. There are substantial upgrades.

 

[test_account]

As a gaming enthusiast, the upgrade just doesn't seem viable after all the digital foundry videos. There is a very minimal upgrade, a quite a lot of people do not own a 4k TV.

Theres also a question what exactly people were/are expecting from the PS4 Pro in terms of graphics upgrade. The main draw, at least regarding PR, is the 4K part. There are many people who arent very senstive to IQ and framerate, and they wont notice an immediate difference. I'm one of them. I went from Battlefield 1 from regular PS4 to PS4 Pro and couldnt really tell any difference. I know that there are differences, but from my memory, the game feels about the same on both consoles. Maybe i notice a bigger difference if i go back to the regular PS4.

 

[Freshmaker]

I should make a video with my neighbors asking them to spot the difference between my 1070 and my 970 running doom at 1080p. Then I will have a rock solid scientific piece proving the 1070 is unnecessary.

 

[mackmoney]

The basis of their comparison is valid in the sense that PS4 Pro is not worth the upgrade for existing pre-Pro titles. Pro patches for Uncharted 4 and even R&C are not worth upgrading for if one is an existing owner.

However, the post-Pro titles, including FFXV and TLG, start to make an upgrade appear more sensible. This takes into considerations 2017 releases that almost assuredly will start to widen the performance gap. It makes one question how the OG PS4 will be able to manage going forward.

I didn't get a Pro until I played FFXV and TLG this week, albeit a "like new" Pro off of Amazon.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I wonder if half the people in this thread would still be criticising Cinemassacre's methods if the results were what they wanted to read (that everyone could tell the difference/chose the Pro)?

It would still be unscientific and generally a dumb test to try and prove a point. They already told people what was pro and what was PS4 so people already knew which one was supposed to be better.

If you actually watched the video most people DID supposedly see a difference, they just didn't care about it, which generally destroys any meaning to the test to begin with.

 

[butman]

The reasons people say in this thread trying to justify buying their PS4 Pro looks like a PRO Anonymous users support meeting.

- Hi my name is Mike, I bought a PS4Pro.
- Hello Mike.

 

[Gurrry]

It would still be unscientific and generally a dumb test to try and prove a point. They already told people what was pro and what was PS4 so people already knew which one was supposed to be better.

If you actually watched the video most people DID supposedly see a difference, they just didn't care about it, which generally destroys any meaning to the test to begin with.

I dont think it destroys the meaning of the test. I think it just shows that the difference wasnt big enough to warrant the extra 150 dollars.

However, I think once we get out of the launch window for the Pro, games will be able to take more advantage of the hardware and the differences will become more apparent down the line.

 

[hemo memo]

So they can't tell the difference..

 

[farisr]

The reasons people say in this thread trying to justify buying their PS4 Pro looks like a PRO Anonymous users support meeting.

- Hi my name is Mike, I bought a PS4Pro.
- Hello Mike.

Some probably.

Then there's the group that's showing up and using this video as some sort of irrefutable proof, almost as though they need something like this to feel happy about not buying a pro. Which looks bad when there are non pro owners in the thread with no intention to buy a pro calling this test flawed as well.

 

[test_account]

The reasons people say in this thread trying to justify buying their PS4 Pro looks like a PRO Anonymous users support meeting.

- Hi my name is Mike, I bought a PS4Pro.
- Hello Mike.

No need for a generalization like this.

 

[EmiPrime]

The reasons people say in this thread trying to justify buying their PS4 Pro looks like a PRO Anonymous users support meeting.

- Hi my name is Mike, I bought a PS4Pro.
- Hello Mike.

As opposed to this video appealing to your confirmation bias?

 

[Inuhanyou]

I dont think it destroys the meaning of the test. I think it just shows that the difference wasnt big enough to warrant the extra 150 dollars.

According to the people they showed, without many variables in place. If your upgrading from a PS4 to a Pro, or buying a Pro to begin with, what your looking for is generally different from looking at 2 side by side TV's for 60 seconds and then trying to tell the difference.

In that case nobody could ever be sold on a 4K TV compared to a 1080p TV.

Again, i'm not trying to say that Pro should be better or looked at as better, i'm just saying its a dumb test that can't really prove much beyond Mike trying to insinuate himself that Pro is not worth it in general, for anybody.

Which is def not the case. I don't own one and i have no real plans to own one if my PS4 stays strong, but there is definitely a market to be sold on these iterative devices and i can aknowledge that

 

[BravesCountry]

i wonder if the last guardian at single digits should be used.

Is the performance really that bad? I don't plan on upgrading to pro any time soon so that could be a deal breaker...

 

[optimiss]

They only used one game (Uncharted 4) and it's not one of the more obvious upgrades either...

Dishonored 2, Ratchet & Clank and Tomb Raider are night and day comparisons.

No, not really. The difference is small enough that anyone who didn't notice in Uncharted is unlikely to notice on any of those games. I'm watching a R&C comparison right now and the differences are miniscule (at least on a non HDR TV).

 

[SebastianM]

We'll start to see more significant differences down the line i'm sure, today I'd say they are pretty negligible.

 

[Nameless]

The reasons people say in this thread trying to justify buying their PS4 Pro looks like a PRO Anonymous users support meeting.

- Hi my name is Mike, I bought a PS4Pro.
- Hello Mike.

Nice attempt to invalidate the opinions of the people who, you know, actually own the thing in favor of some shitty YouTube video. Pro threads have been a dumpster fire lately.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Is the performance really that bad? I don't plan on upgrading to pro any time soon so that could be a deal breaker...

at absolute worst. If you've ever played ICO or SOTC on PS2, its basically the same. Not to say they were good performance metrics, but you get the sense the CPU is being pushed in the same way down to the bone, while still allowing for a playable experience

 

[Gunslinger]

The TV they are doing their experiment on is it 4k? Becuase believe me anyone who owns a 4k tv imo should see a big difference in visuals. 1080p now looks kind of soft and blurry as opposed to 4k. Shadow of mordor is a very good example of this. I am not even counting HDR.

 

[kpaadet]

Yes, if you are a casual gamer and only plan to play a single game (Uncharted 4) for the rest of the console's life, you are probably better off with a normal PS4. Wished there was a way to sub to AVGN and have all videos with Mike not show up in my feed.

 

[BravesCountry]

at absolute worst. If you've ever played ICO or SOTC on PS2, its basically the same. Not to say they were good performance metrics, but you get the sense the CPU is being pushed in the same way down to the bone, while still allowing for a playable experience

I loved SOTC but never got around to playing Ico. I was very young at the time I played SOTC and I doubt I ever really noticed performance or was bothered by it at that age. I would probably be ok with TLG although I'm coming to appreciate framerate more and more in games.

 

[Josh7289]

I liked the video up until the very end, when Mike and Ryan trashed the PS4 Pro as well.

I liked this anecdotal insight into what the average non-GAFfer might think of the system and all that, but I wish they had just left it there. I think the PS4 Pro is of course worth it if you're really into this stuff, like many of us here on GAF, and I wish they had acknowledged that in the conclusion of the video. Instead, they ended it by saying that because the majority of the people they interviewed didn't think it was worth it, it basically shouldn't exist. That's not the right conclusion to draw.

Of course, this isn't a real science experiment, so I suppose I shouldn't complain too much, but they did attempt to control for as many factors as they could think of, so they did make an attempt to that end...

Anyway, I still enjoyed the anecdotal insight from the people they interviewed.

 

[rackham]

A lot of butt hurt clowns here. They let you know pretty candidly that these are just regular folks' experience with the 2 systems and how they view it. Their video wasn't titled "REAL GAMERS GIVE REAL THOUGHTS!!11!ON THE REAL"

I liked the video. Thought it was informative and loved Johnny's cameo.

 

[DashReindeer]

I knew this thread would be bloodbath as soon as I watched the video. This type of more casual analysis does not go over well with the GAF crowd methinks.

That aside, the best part of Cinemassacre these days is Mike and Bootsy's show. Both of them are pretty skilled at classic arcade gaming, and Bootsy has such a calming presence that makes the videos they make entertaining regardless of what they're playing. They only play older games and ROM hacks and it works great to showcase what they're actually good at.

 

[Biske]

It makes sense. Pretty much exactly what I expected, any time you have whats basically an incremental upgrade, its just not that impressive.



One guy even talks about how upgrading the 3DS was a no brainer.... eeeeh not really.


New 3DS is definitely better with the 3D and viewing angles, leagues better. But everything else is a wash... so it doesn't warrant any kind of extra costs to get it. Can get it pretty cheap these days so its not an issue, but if its a matter of like 100 bucks more or so... nah.

Same with a lot of cell phones. Once you get to a certain point, the next step isn't that great, so you need to really change the game to get that wow factor.

Diminishing returns.

 

[Baron Aloha]

Good video IMO. Its not a digital foundry style analysis but that was the entire point. It was just to see what the average person on the street thinks. I can appreciate that.

 

[chromatic9]

1440p (U4 res) on its own isn't going to wow your average gamer. 80% could see the difference but simply don't care enough. Video is a fair take.

3840x2160 native games with HDR complement each other well and could make that difference to maybe an upgrade is worthwhile. We'll have to wait to see how good devs can make 2160p checkerboard with HDR but even then its probably just a few games next year and support is quite variable.

 

[Playsage]

- (while grinning like an idiot) "Just don't take our word for it. The general public also feels the same way: this goddamn thing is a catastrophe!"

I was thoroughly convinced by that.

 

[EmiPrime]

No, not really. The difference is small enough that anyone who didn't notice in Uncharted is unlikely to notice on any of those games. I'm watching a R&C comparison right now and the differences are miniscule (at least on a non HDR TV).

Well there's your problem!

A single dark cut-scene on Uncharted 4 isn't the best showcase and still 4/5 correctly spotted which was the Pro. R&C is gorgeous on a 4K HDR TV, the image quality is ridiculous but it's something you have to see in person, without Youtube's compression. For PS4 Pro games that boost the frame rate or have a more consistent one however, the difference is really obvious even on Youtube.

 

[v1oz]

It's called diminishing returns. You need much more than double the horse power across the whole system not just on the GPU, but also bandwidth, CPU and amount of RAM to get meaningful improvements in graphics. At the moment the main difference in graphics between Pro and Non-Pro are things like less jaggies, slightly better shadows and slightly better texture filtering. It's just not a night and day difference, some people may not even notice the differences from their normal TV viewing distances; until you point them out to them and you need to get them right up the telly to compare the IQ side by side. And it looks like the Pro may even have frame rate issues when trying to run standard PS4 games at higher resolutions, it honestly seems like the machine is unbalanced and the games are CPU bound.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Love these guys for classic games and AVGN of course but modern gaming is really not their strong point. It did seem like the only real gamer in that group, did say he would buy it, the others didn't seem like gamers at all.

But its their opinion and the Pro is not going to be for everyone, even some core gamers, so it's hardly a massive problem.

 

[fluffydelusions]

Yes, if you are a casual gamer and only plan to play a single game (Uncharted 4) for the rest of the console's life, you are probably better off with a normal PS4.

I think a normal PS4 would be perfectly fine for someone that uses it only for exclusives and a gaming PC for everything else.