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Colin Moriarty of Kinda Funny: source says "most developers are not happy with PS4.5"

Developing for the Neo will be unlike any of your examples.



It's definitely going to be an issue for games releasing this fall and probably early next year as well. After some time though, devs will get a grasp on things and it'll be fine.

Yep you're right, it won't be the same because the NEO either forces devs to put in more effort for minimal returns and no extra user base or forces them to make it NEO exclusive thus pissing off the ps poor owners. It's a lose lose situation.
 

OneUh8

Member
I just hope they make the cert process cheaper. Imagine being an indie dev that's strapped for cash and having to pay for 2 patches to go through cert instead of just the 1. You have to patch both versions, and one version might need a patch that the other doesn't.

This seems kinda shortsighted unless Sony has an answer to their expensive and lengthy certification process.


You are wrong. There are a number of graphical options that are baked into the drivers/software for your GPU. It's why you can force graphical options even if the game doesn't include them. Plus, there isn't any standard for PC options. Some games just have a Low/Medium/High scaler and it just changes the resolution of textures.

But two PS4 SKUs that have the exact same architecture and OS should be even simpler than that. You know the exact hardware specs for both. There is no variation. Just one is more powerful than the other. Using your example, then the PS4 will be the "medium" setting and the PS4K will be the "high" setting.
 
Wrong and wrong.

Heck, as a dev I'm always mad when Apple introduces a new iPhone screen/res size, because that means more work for me in order to support it. But it creates a healthy brand life for the iPhone, drives new sales, and secures a strong future and opportunity for more iOS app sales.

This is the most non-news news ever.

Agreed.
 
Sorry if this has been asked before but... couldn't devs just not make a "Neo" optimization setting and just have the game run at normal PS4 settings across both versions?
 

gamerMan

Member
What a mess! While this might seem like a great idea from a consumer point of view, I can't see developers being happy with this. This is just going to increase development costs as you have to spend extra time getting a NEO version running. I'm guessing many 3rd parties aren't going to spend extra on the NEO versions as the boxed software will retail at same price. It not as simple as just increasing the resolution or frame rate as you have to test the game to make sure it's optimized for the NEO. So first you have to target the minimum spec, then you have to optimize it for the NEO, which increases the cost and time of developing a game.

I hope we get developers speaking out against it or perhaps boycotting it by not developing special NEO versions of their software. It's not like they get anything out of it besides increased cost.
 
Adding options to scale resolution or filtering or AA sampling... Things like this are trivial.

I think what will annoy devs here is the extra QA and testing burden rather than coding demands. There's no one on PC forcing you to test with different setups... Here you'll kind of have to test on both setups fairly thoroughly I guess, or risk certification issues with Sony (e.g. If you're neo mode ended up with worse framerate than the base mode)

Thanks, asked the same thing on the last page, so this helps.
 

I-hate-u

Member
I just want to understand Sony's motivation behind this. Why risk upsetting the current PS4 user-base and devs when everything is going so well for them as we enter mid-cycle?
 

Interfectum

Member
Wrong and wrong.

Heck, as a dev I'm always mad when Apple introduces a new iPhone screen/res size, because that means more work for me in order to support it. But it creates a healthy brand life for the iPhone, drives new sales, and secures a strong future and opportunity for more iOS app sales.

This is the most non-news news ever.

Haters latching on as they think this thread is validation for their anger.
 
Sorry if this has been asked before but... couldn't devs just not make a "Neo" optimization setting and just have the game run at normal PS4 settings across both versions?

They could. They could also just make a Neo version that is just the normal version with SSAA and higher AF so as to ensure only the GPU is taking the hit.
 

Plum

Member
If devs aren't happy simply because "it's more work", I get that and it'd be frustrating right now. But again, the industry will adapt. It's going to be roughest in the beginning but if Sony offers great dev tools and support, it'll only get easier as time goes on.

The thing is devs and publishers aren't in the right space to adapt right now. If we were in 2003 talking about a PS2.5 then I'd be signing a different tune. Budgets just can't cope with four (or five) ((or six with NX, doubtfully though)) versions of the game having to be tested for.

Sony will need to do some serious subsidising to get publishers to focus on the Neo. Because if left to their own devices they will always go with the cheaper option, which now will be developing for PS4 and upscaling for Neo.

I'm fully expecting to only see the real benefits of the system with first party titles like God of War.

But then again, this is all speculation. We'll have to see at E3 what exactly the Neo entails to really have a good crack at predicting what will happen.
 
Yep you're right, it won't be the same because the NEO either forces devs to put in more effort for minimal returns and no extra user base or forces them to make it NEO exclusive thus pissing off the ps poor owners. It's a lose lose situation.

We already know there aren't going to be Neo exclusives. At least not anytime soon.

So, no.
 

Mesoian

Member
Not surprising, it's more work for them. Though I doubt it'll lack support when it releases.

From what I understand, support for NEO mode is mandatory.

We already know there aren't going to be Neo exclusives. At least not anytime soon.

So, no.

Well, yes, it means his first point is the only real logical outcome. More dev time and costs for virtually no reward for the developer.
 

Ray Down

Banned
Wrong and wrong.

Heck, as a dev I'm always mad when Apple introduces a new iPhone screen/res size, because that means more work for me in order to support it. But it creates a healthy brand life for the iPhone, drives new sales, and secures a strong future and opportunity for more iOS app sales.

This is the most non-news news ever.

.
 

killroy87

Member
To be clear, I think devs like the idea of having a more powerful system to play with.

However, forcing them to adapt their games to fit both models is something I can 100% see them hating. At no point will they ever see an increase in revenue for having to suddenly develop 1.5 games instead of one.

For a lot of devs, it's a huuuuge waste of money, time, and resources.
 

DavidDesu

Member
I can imagine. They have to do double work now. Optimize their game as much as they can so it can run properly on the og PS4 and now optimize as well so it can run and look even better on the PS4K. Sounds like hellish amounts of work now. : /

Lol hyperbole much. They'll make a base PS4 game as they were always going to do, and since they're not idiots they'll more than likely see where they can make essentially free performance improvements (brute forcing thanks to the improved PS4K specs) and then leave it at that. Sony is making everything else pretty painless by enforcing no exclusives, all games acting the same in terms of online multiplayer and so on.

EVERYONE making a PC version of their PS4 game will simply make the PS4K version more closely resemble higher end PC specs, and the PS4 mid-low range PC specs as it was always going to be. It's about the most painless upgrade of a console they could do quite frankly. Can't see an enhanced Xbox 1.5 being any easier a proposition, so they will simply have to adapt. At worst make PS4 game and leave it at that with no enhancements for PS4K.
 

RMI

Banned
I just want to understand Sony's motivation behind this. Why risk upsetting the current PS4 user-base and devs when everything is going so well for them as we enter mid-cycle?

they know they can sell some users a second console while they phase out the old hardware, and it won't cost them anything. Most people will not even notice this is happening.
 

Tankard

Member
This is a stupid move, and the worse is that it will be done for no reason.

Fun times ahead though, i will be playing my budget PS4 while watching it unveil.
 

Interfectum

Member
This seems obvious to me. It's more work that probably won't lead to significantly more sales for developers.

If PS4K takes off you can bet there will be a ton of indie devs that go back and recompile their old PS4 games for the chance of getting on some "PS4K Ready!" list.
 
Sure they are, cause of those forced extra-NEO-extravaganza features Sony wants to see from every (?) PS4 game, starting October 2016 (plz correct me if wrong).

But. Sony's console is the one with dat 40mn install base (most likely 50mn+ at the end of Sony FJ 16). The sheer market power of PS4 enables Sony to force developers to run the extra mile.
 

Armadilo

Banned
B-b-but, developers demanded this, the current platforms were hampering their vision for their projects, GAF told me...

True..true.. People would say that the PS4 is to weak and should not blame the developer because they couldn't lock the frame rate or make it look "next gen"
 

Audioboxer

Member
I just want to understand Sony's motivation behind this. Why risk upsetting the current PS4 user-base and devs when everything is going so well for them as we enter mid-cycle?

Because they want to aid their VR goals long before the PS5 comes out. That and obviously they're thinking why not try this and see how it works? Risky sure, but I'm certain "internet outrage" isn't going to step in the way of what will be a rather harmless trial if it fails (PS4 original isn't going anywhere and will only be cheaper now). They can prop it up as a 4K media machine, and VR experience improvement, and see how it goes.

"Everyone" now abandoning consoles, selling their PS4 and taking themselves out of the equation to play the likes of TLG, Uncharted 4, Persona 5, GT7, Horizon and so forth will amount to... 2 angry internet gamers.
 

Draft

Member
Of course they are not. PS4.5 is about Sony having a $400 box on the shelf for another few years instead of being stuck sub $300 in a price war with the Xbox One and (lol) Wii U/NX.

What's a developer get? They can ignore the 4.5 and maybe lose their audience to better staffed or more technically proficient competitors. Or their workload increases to include 4.5 upgrades in a PS4 game. Extra work just to get back to square one. Lose/Lose.

Especially because, who is buying the 4.5? It's gonna be people who already own PS4s! Or it's going to be the people who would have bought PS4 but hadn't gotten around to it yet. In other words, it's going to be the same audience that would exist without a PS4.5. More work, no extra audience, no extra revenue. Lose/Lose.
 

Con Con

Member
I really think NEO is more for VR than for regular games. They are targeting the same audience that has more money to spend and can afford more experimental items.

But yeah, I'm not sure what developers gain from this.
 
We already know there aren't going to be Neo exclusives. At least not anytime soon.

So, no.
Did Sony say that or is it just speculation?


Oh yeah, it's just speculation.



So then we're left with the first option, where devs are forced to put in extra effort for no extra user base whole being hampered by outdated hardware. Brilliant.
 
If PS4K takes off you can bet there will be a ton of indie devs that go back and recompile their old PS4 games for the chance of getting on some "PS4K Ready!" list.

I can see an initial rush but once the excitement wears off are people really going to care about slightly better looking indie games from years ago? Are people going to be expected to re-buy those games?
 
Cross-posting myself:

You guys do know that console games in development actually can have graphics settings (in a menu taken from the PC version or in a debug menu) that you can change, right?

Developer effort will come more in the sense that they have to keep the different performance budgets in mind. Meaning, if you need to keep, let's say, your polygon budget under 30M for the PS4/Xbone version you make a graphics setting around that, then PS4k would have an undefined number. You would then add props, details, change LoD to use that extra PS4k power.

It's no different from doing different graphics settings for PC.

They'll probably make a baseline in the future, like PS4 = Low/Medium = 7850/760, PS4k = high/very high = (future) Polaris 10/480, and that's the way they'll manage the difference in power.

It's not very different from what happens now with multiplatform games. Extra platforms always mean extra hours in compliance, QA and builds though. But games won't be (or shouldn't be) any worse for it.

Source: the brain of an actual person working at an actual big studio :)

PS: I'm guessing a lot of the time they'll just throw some HBAO, higher quality filtering, they'll move the framerate lock to 60/increase res and maybe add some AA.
 

RedAssedApe

Banned
"lazy" devs
/s

i mean they might not like it but aren't they doing it x10 for various pc configurations? "i don't like it" doesn't mean "i won't bother to support it"
 

Sylas

Member
But two PS4 SKUs that have the exact same architecture and OS should be even simpler than that. You know the exact hardware specs for both. There is no variation. Just one is more powerful than the other. Using your example, then the PS4 will be the "medium" setting and the PS4K will be the "high" setting.

You actually have to define what "better" means, though. It's something that only Sony developers will know in all likelihood, and you won't be able to code in simple things that are taken care of on the driver-end of things--in all likelihood. It's why AMD and Nvidia regularly put out new drivers for the newest games. The devs aren't doing that work, the card-makers are.

My concern is that Sony won't go, "Eh, good enough," and is going to have a certain standard for neo mode. On PC you don't have that.

Plus, again, there's the cert problems. PC games and patches can just be released into the wild. Steam doesn't have a process to make sure the game runs to their specifications.
 

Marlenus

Member
If the NX is based on Polaris, is faster than PS4 and it is easy to port from PS4 to NX then surely devs can just target ps4/Xbox one as the base version and NX/PS4 neo as the enhanced version. I really dont see the problem.
 
Is Colin Moriarity taken seriously in the community? I'm genuinely curious.

I would think so. He's very well connected in the industry and has a seemingly good history of integrity. I could see being turned off by his opinions on things, but this is more along the lines of "I have a source for XYZ" and, as someone who's followed him for a few years now, I've seen nothing to suggest he would make that up.
 

generic_username

I switched to an alt account to ditch my embarrassing tag so I could be an embarrassing Naughty Dog fanboy in peace. Ask me anything!
What a mess! While this might seem like a great idea from a consumer point of view, I can't see developers being happy with this. This is just going to increase development costs as you have to spend extra time getting a NEO version running. I'm guessing many 3rd parties aren't going to spend extra on the NEO versions as the boxed software will retail at same price. It not as simple as just increasing the resolution or frame rate as you have to test the game to make sure it's optimized for the NEO. So first you have to target the minimum spec, then you have to optimize it for the NEO, which increases the cost and time of developing a game.

I hope we get developers speaking out against it or perhaps boycotting it by not developing special NEO versions of their software. It's not like they get anything out of it besides increased cost.

They cannot release a PS4 game without Neo so they have to skip the PS4 as well.
 
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