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[Jacksinthe]

LOL! So true.



Now this is interesting. Jacksinthe what if the PS5 came out in 2020 and used the same dev tools, consumer OS, but had 8 times more GPU and RAM and 5 times more CPU power?

How would that make you feel as a dev?

I would do approximately 5-8 times more stuff without having to make new tools.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

Sony making me glad I didn't buy a PS4 yet and just went with a GPU upgrade last year. I get MS is probably going to do the same thing but they kind of need to more than Sony does and 2018 is only 20 months away.

 

[Andodalf]

10min in and i want to rip my ears off. Now this is all about poor developers...the same poor developers who get SHIT on from great heights when they announce 900p or 30fps.

Colin never does this, nor does greg.

 

[Papacheeks]

Hey bud.

Pick one:

1) Longer development cycles focused on constantly creating new tools to squeeze what's in our brains into pixels.

2) Shorter development cycles focused on just turning what's in our brains into pixels.

Call me crazy, but I'll take door number 2. Lower cost, less stress, less time, etc.

How is them coming out with a new console in 2019 that uses x86 but has better specs, hmb2 and all that not a shorter dev cycle than last gen?

Last gen went on for like 7-8 years. If they release a new console 2019 that will be 6 years PS4 will be out and keeping it x86 would help with backwards compatibility in software and probably your tools and engines.

If they keep it x86 and the hardware stays AMD based, I don't see it being that big of a change compared to going from Power PC to x86.

So if they stay the course for 3 more years, and the next console is x86 with more headroom, I don't see you having to rewrite everything.

Is the PS4 already tapped out for your engine and work? Because the progression in IQ in the past 2 years would say otherwise.

 

[Curufinwe]

10min in and i want to rip my ears off. Now this is all about poor developers...the same poor developers who get SHIT on from great heights when they announce 900p or 30fps.

People forget 360 didn't even have a damn HDMI port at launch. Or that they both launched with 20/60GB HDDs. I know it's apples and oranges but to me it's the same shit. People want 4K so here's a newer version that supports 4K. That's it.

If PS4 OG games start to look worse then usual then we'll cross that bridge when we get there. No reason to assume ALL studios or even the majority of them are going to shit on PS4 OG.

I heard the reason Dark Souls 3 doesn't run at a locked 30fps on PS4 is that From heard about the Neo with six months left in development and figured they wouldn't bother working hard to make the PS4 version run smoothly to spite Sony for giving them extra work to do on better hardware in the future.

My Uncle works there, you see.

 

[Curufinwe]

The thing your not understanding from Jeff Getsman, IGN, and colin's emotional perspective, is this device essentially benefits no one but Sony.

Jeff is not upset about the Neo.

 

[CosmicQueso]

So, when PS5 comes out, it'll have to support 4k native, won't it? At that point, with a significant number of 4k TVs in the market, seems safe as an assumption on expectations.

People are talking about the increased costs of developing for Neo.

These increases would pale in comparison to the cost increases that would be associated with native 4k development on next gen.

The tech needed for 4k support also doesn't look cost feasible until around 2020 (smarter people than me pointing that out in the previous PS4K thread).

So, we have tech that needs to develop in order to make the HW feasible, and we have development costs that will once again leap with the new gen. All while the market for the consoles is not growing at the same rate as costs would increase.

I don't think it's as simple as "well just don't do Neo and just release PS5 in 2018. Just doesn't look at all feasible in order for games to keep getting made given the cost increases coming.

 

[b3b0p]

Well now you're just being overly facetious with that BS. How can you seriously think that?? Talk about a full on character assassination.

Dude, he probably plays more games than us two put together lol.

One does not need to like their job. He plays a lot of games, so? Does not mean he likes them.

Character assassination? No, I stated what I get from listening to him on his podcast. This is the image he is portraying. It's not my fault. It is his. He needs to fix it. I'm obviously not a lone if you read this thread.

I believe I have heard him explicitly state on his podcast that he doesn't like playing games at times. Which is fine, we probably all have those phases, but he doesn't have to take it out on his audience. My problem is that it appears to be more often than not.

I wouldn't mind contributing a few bucks to their Patreon and endeavor, but I can't do it. It's not Greg's fault, but it is Colin's. It's too bad because if he shaped up their podcast would be magnitudes more enjoyable and have much more production quality. He is nearly 50% of the show after all.

I'll wager he is reading this thread. I hope he takes note.

 

[Curufinwe]

So, when PS5 comes out, it'll have to support 4k native, won't it? At that point, with a significant number of 4k TVs in the market, seems safe as an assumption on expectations.

People are talking about the increased costs of developing for Neo.

These increases would pale in comparison to the cost increases that would be associated with native 4k development on next gen.

The tech needed for 4k support also doesn't look cost feasible until around 2020 (smarter people than me pointing that out in the previous PS4K thread).

So, we have tech that needs to develop in order to make the HW feasible, and we have development costs that will once again leap with the new gen. All while the market for the consoles is not growing at the same rate as costs would increase.

I don't think it's as simple as "well just don't do Neo and just release PS5 in 2018. Just doesn't look at all feasible in order for games to keep getting made given the cost increases coming.

That's how I feel. I thought a five year cycle with a PS5 in 2018 made sense, but that was under the assumption the tech would be ready then for a generational leap. If it's not ready till 2020, then another seven year gen with no hardware upgrades would face the same issues we saw in 2011-13 when console games really started struggling to keep up with PCs and software sales fell off.

 

[Marty Chinn]

So, when PS5 comes out, it'll have to support 4k native, won't it? At that point, with a significant number of 4k TVs in the market, seems safe as an assumption on expectations.

People are talking about the increased costs of developing for Neo.

These increases would pale in comparison to the cost increases that would be associated with native 4k development on next gen.

The tech needed for 4k support also doesn't look cost feasible until around 2020 (smarter people than me pointing that out in the previous PS4K thread).

So, we have tech that needs to develop in order to make the HW feasible, and we have development costs that will once again leap with the new gen. All while the market for the consoles is not growing at the same rate as costs would increase.

I don't think it's as simple as "well just don't do Neo and just release PS5 in 2018. Just doesn't look at all feasible in order for games to keep getting made given the cost increases coming.

What do you think are the costs and requirements to do "native 4K development" that contrast to doing "native 2K development"?

 

[Papacheeks]

Jeff is not upset about the Neo.

Maybe you should watch it again?

Here he in a professional way lays some general sentiments on where the industry is going.

And their guest chimes in Here where Jeff agrees with him a little on the apprehensiveness of Neo exclusive feature games similar to 3DS-N3DS debacle.

 

[GlamFM]

Maybe you should watch it again?

Here he in a professional way lays some general sentiments on where the industry is going.

And their guest chimes in Here where Jeff agrees with him a little on the apprehensiveness of Neo exclusive feature games similar to 3DS-N3DS debacle.

True, but he's not negative about it. More.... Curious about where things go.

 

[test_account]

They were never gone. They were just making some seriously good decisions for a hot minute.

And then VR.

And then PS4K.

::Shrug::

Why is making VR arrogant?

 

[Papacheeks]

True, but he's not negative about it. More.... Curious about where things go.

True, but that's him more or less trying to be professional and not be emotionally invested and strongly opinionated about the subject.

But his concerns from him being around so much and bringing up 3DS situation, and how easy it could be for shit to roll down hill.

It paints tons of uncertainty that can be good, or can be really, really bad.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

The better question is -

Why?

PlayStation 4 is murdering, crushing and destroying their competition so when you truly think about it, why even bother? Sit back, relax and ride it out until PS5.

Even if NX is twice as powerful as PS4, so what? NX is three years and 40m behind. And being more powerful won't mean anything if it's just another gimmick or if they have no third party support.

To me, too many gamers constantly complain about frame rates, resolution, etc. and if anything, is probably the cause for this happening as im sure Sony and Microsoft are sick and tired of hearing all the complaints in regards to resolution and frame rates.

Gamers themselves are basically bringing this on themselves because games are the ones who keep asking for all that better stuff. Just like when DLC, season passes, etc. first happened. If you support it, the publishers will keep doing it.

If you're asking for better resolution and frame rates, you'll eventually get it but in a way you may not be happy about.

Just looking at Uncharted 4 compared to the launch titles and it's a huge leap. Imagine how games will be in another two years, four and half years in? I just think that there's simply no valid or good enough reason for Sony to do this.

 

[nib95]

Yes it also does. This is the exact reason why PC games tend to have graphics settings; you can scale graphical fidelity as much as you want on a PC. It's also why PC racing simulators have been a tier above console racing simulators in mechanical fidelity for quite some time (Project Cars, Assetto Corsa, and DIRT Rally all started as PC titles). And that's not even mentioning stuff like Star Citizen.

So ambition of design being bottlenecked by quickly improving performance isn't it, especially now at a time when the vast majority of games released on consoles are also on PC.

A few graphics settings is hardly an extensive use of the top end GPU market. Ambition is absolutely held back as a result of the lowest common denominators and/or consoles. If it weren't for them, and games could actually be built from the ground up for just the high end GPU's, those games would be a generation ahead of everything else. As in, in a completely different league to what we're getting now. In terms of lighting, physics, particle effects, real time deformation and everything else.

There is obviously the side business argument that the top end GPU market is so niche that making a game specifically for them wouldn't be financially viable, but that's a separate argument.

 

[justsomeguy]

All of what we discussed back then was speculative, with the major issue being if any components in the APU changed and how much work would need to be done by individual dev teams if the console's featured an equivalent APU. Now that the picture has become clearer on how much extra work we're talking, and we have an idea on what the standards are going to be for at least one of these new machines, I can definitely take a step back & have more of an open mind about it.

*nods*

IMO it's kind of a shame people tend to assume the worst when speculating (not a personal dig, just a general observation), but nice to get more context. Now, "at least one" you say?...

 

[Papacheeks]

*nods*

IMO it's kind of a shame people tend to assume the worst when speculating (not a personal dig, just a general observation), but nice to get more context. Now, "at least one" you say?...

I want to be proven to be a overreacting old kook. But the history of gaming has shown having a more powerful box, or constantly chasing the power rabbit doesn't yield a better environment.
PS2 was the weakest out of it's gen yet had shit tons of games that were unique, great looking and just fun.

Graphics didn't matter as much. Even PS3 you look at all the sub resolutions they had on a lot of their titles. But people still myself included loved what studios were putting out. Even when PS4 was announced.

I want to be optimistic but the past with sega, small incidents like with N3DS have shown this path regardless of incentives by the company don't always end well or have the effect they intended to have.

The better question is -

Why?

PlayStation 4 is murdering, crushing and destroying their competition so when you truly think about it, why even bother? Sit back, relax and ride it out until PS5.

Even if NX is twice as powerful as PS4, so what? NX is three years and 40m behind. And being more powerful won't mean anything if it's just another gimmick or if they have no third party support.

To me, too many gamers constantly complain about frame rates, resolution, etc. and if anything, is probably the cause for this happening as im sure Sony and Microsoft are sick and tired of hearing all the complaints in regards to resolution and frame rates.

Gamers themselves are basically bringing this on themselves because games are the ones who keep asking for all that better stuff. Just like when DLC, season passes, etc. first happened. If you support it, the publishers will keep doing it.

If you're asking for better resolution and frame rates, you'll eventually get it but in a way you may not be happy about.

Just looking at Uncharted 4 compared to the launch titles and it's a huge leap. Imagine how games will be in another two years, four and half years in? I just think that there's simply no valid or good enough reason for Sony to do this.

Agreed. I actually wish someone on the developer side really close to sony like Naughty Dog or Sucker punch could actually give their 2 cent's on this but NDA's are a thing for a reason.
I'm ok with slow gradual progress in IQ, frame rate. As long as developers make entertaining interesting games.

LBP wasn't some giant spectacle it just was very unique and had a lot of charm to it. Games like that prove it's not about the pixels, or the resolution. Same can be said about Sunset Overdrive, Super Time Force, even recently as bad as performance was I enjoyed the shit out of Broforce.

 

[mckmas8808]

I would do approximately 5-8 times more stuff without having to make new tools.

Do you use a middleware toolset like Unreal Engine 4 at the moment?

 

[jroc74]

10min in and i want to rip my ears off. Now this is all about poor developers...the same poor developers who get SHIT on from great heights when they announce 900p or 30fps.

People forget 360 didn't even have a damn HDMI port at launch. Or that they both launched with 20/60GB HDDs. I know it's apples and oranges but to me it's the same shit. People want 4K so here's a newer version that supports 4K. That's it.

If PS4 OG games start to look worse then usual then we'll cross that bridge when we get there. No reason to assume ALL studios or even the majority of them are going to shit on PS4 OG.

No HDMI. Didnt get that until 2007. So for almost 2 years anything the devs did that made the games look so great wasnt even really noticed...and didnt get wifi until the 360 Slim. The Slim launched in June 2010..

It truly amazes me.

 

[Razgreez]

But they don't do that now, so why would they start doing that with the NEO?

Expand your frame of reference beyond Neo

 

[SmiteOfHand]

Jeff is not upset about the Neo.

Yeah, I just listened to that discussion on the bombcast and I would say everyone was level headed about it. Especially compared to some reactions.


The biggest dissonace I am seeing is 'Who wants this. Devs? Consumers? Nobody.' Followed by 'When devs target it/sales exceed the original...'

Is it wanted or not, make up your goddamned minds.

 

[jroc74]

The better question is -

Why?

PlayStation 4 is murdering, crushing and destroying their competition so when you truly think about it, why even bother? Sit back, relax and ride it out until PS5.

Even if NX is twice as powerful as PS4, so what? NX is three years and 40m behind. And being more powerful won't mean anything if it's just another gimmick or if they have no third party support.

To me, too many gamers constantly complain about frame rates, resolution, etc. and if anything, is probably the cause for this happening as im sure Sony and Microsoft are sick and tired of hearing all the complaints in regards to resolution and frame rates.

Gamers themselves are basically bringing this on themselves because games are the ones who keep asking for all that better stuff. Just like when DLC, season passes, etc. first happened. If you support it, the publishers will keep doing it.

If you're asking for better resolution and frame rates, you'll eventually get it but in a way you may not be happy about.

Just looking at Uncharted 4 compared to the launch titles and it's a huge leap. Imagine how games will be in another two years, four and half years in? I just think that there's simply no valid or good enough reason for Sony to do this.

Why is because Sony is trying something. An experiment. We wont know the results of that experiment until after the Neo launches.

Is it a risk? Sure. Were the orig XBO policies a risk? Sure. Was the Wii and Wii U a risk? Sure. Was the orig Xbox a risk? Sure.

Was the iPhone a risk? Sure.

Sometimes companies have to take risks. And its why I wish MS would have kept all the orig policies...just see see the actual results of it.

 

[Boombox On]

If it weren't for them, and games could actually be built from the ground up for just the high end GPU's, those games would be a generation ahead of everything else. As in, in a completely different league to what we're getting now. In terms of lighting, physics, particle effects, real time deformation and everything else.

There's a lot of speculative talk in the air here, highlighted by the fact that most of the things you listed also scale fairly well (And some, depending on the instance, may not even be GPU bound).

Meanwhile, VR on PC has been targeted at the high end of GPUs from the get go. Rapid acceleration has not shown to work against that either.

 

[Curufinwe]

Maybe you should watch it again?

Here he in a professional way lays some general sentiments on where the industry is going.

And their guest chimes in Here where Jeff agrees with him a little on the apprehensiveness of Neo exclusive feature games similar to 3DS-N3DS debacle.

I listened to him talk about it for 30 minutes on the Bombcast.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Yeah, I just listened to that discussion on the bombcast and I would say everyone was level headed about it. Especially compared to some reactions.

The biggest dissonace I am seeing is 'Who wants this. Devs? Consumers? Nobody.' Followed by 'When devs target it/sales exceed the original...'

Is it wanted or not, make up your goddamned minds.

Like you say, very level headed about it, yet also very uncertain about what it means and if it is wanted or not. Just seeing a reflection of that.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Why is because Sony is trying something. An experiment. We wont know the results of that experiment until after the Neo launches.

Is it a risk? Sure. Were the orig XBO policies a risk? Sure. Was the Wii and Wii U a risk? Sure

Was the iPhone a risk? Sure.

Sometimes companies have to take risks. And its why I wish MS would have kept all the orig policies...just see see the actual results of it.

Xbox One policies were a huge risk and considering that PS4 is outselling it 2 to 1, I would say that it wasn't worth that risk. Nintendo got lucky with the Wii period. Proof with that is in the Wii U and it's beyond horrible console sales.

Can't really comment on the iPhone since I don't pay any attention to that market. I can say that the difference is that cell phones have had an upgraded plan since the beginning. Consoles never have.

Companies take risks when they're behind and try to make an impact and catch up or do something unique and innovative.

Company taking a risk when they're murdering the competition is more just plain stupid than risk for the simple reason of "why fuck up what you currently have" and for what purpose?

As for Microsoft's original policies, im happy that all blew up in their face. Way too many gamers are becoming like sheep and are just willing to accept anything and everything that the publishers say and do. Sorry but not me.

I don't want to be "required" to do anything. Once a company tells me that im "required" to do something, my response is very simple - fuck you and fuck off. (Not you obviously, but the company)

The more "requirements" that eventually become the norm in gaming, the worse gaming will get. It sure as hell won't get better.

And here's a side note that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet -

In a decade, Sega released Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, Saturn and Dreamcast. Two of them being add-ons for the Genesis and im sure that every launch was $200 or more. How did that work out for them? It simply doesn't work.

Just because it works with cell phones doesn't mean anything. A cell phone has millions of apps and uses including work. No console will ever be able to do that, nor should it. Second, a cell phone is small and portable. Where the hell are you going to put the console? In your pocket? Good luck with that. LOL. And even if you do somehow manage to carry it around with you, where the hell are you going to plug it in and where the hell is the screen?

Sorry but it's just an idea that literally makes no sense whatsoever. It's almost like Sony, Microsoft, etc. take turns each generation trying to fuck themselves over and I for one, just don't see the point in taking the chance that causes that to happen.

 

[Omotesando]

Meh.... watching this right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqhBdCYymuQ

Yeah, I´m taking his tweet with a grain of salt....

EDIT: A huge grain of salt actually, he´s waaaaaaay too emotional over this to be taken seriously.

This video is almost a meltdown.

Colin Moriarty doesn't like games when the self-estimated anti-consumer corporate behavior over the benefits that comes with the new machine evokes such strong emotion.

 

[jroc74]

Maybe you should watch it again?

Here he in a professional way lays some general sentiments on where the industry is going.

And their guest chimes in Here where Jeff agrees with him a little on the apprehensiveness of Neo exclusive feature games similar to 3DS-N3DS debacle.

And what again is the 3DS-N3DS debacle?

Xbox One policies were a huge risk and considering that PS4 is outselling it 2 to 1, I would say that it wasn't worth that risk. Nintendo got lucky with the Wii period. Proof with that is in the Wii U and it's beyond horrible console sales.

Can't really comment on the iPhone since I don't pay any attention to that market. I can say that the difference is that cell phones have had an upgraded plan since the beginning. Consoles never have.

Companies take risks when they're behind and try to make an impact and catch up or do something unique and innovative.

Company taking a risk when they're murdering the competition is more just plain stupid than risk for the simple reason of "why fuck up what you currently have" and for what purpose?

As for Microsoft's original policies, im happy that all blew up in their face. Way too many gamers are becoming like sheep and are just willing to accept anything and everything that the publishers say and do. Sorry but not me.

I don't want to be "required" to do anything. Once a company tells me that im "required" to do something, my response is very simple - fuck you and fuck off. (Not you obviously, but the company)

The more "requirements" that eventually become the norm in gaming, the worse gaming will get. It sure as hell won't get better.

And here's a side note that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet -

In a decade, Sega released Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, Saturn and Dreamcast. Two of them being add-ons for the Genesis and im sure that every launch was $200 or more. How did that work out for them? It simply doesn't work.

Just because it works with cell phones doesn't mean anything. A cell phone has millions of apps and uses including work. No console will ever be able to do that, nor should it. Second, a cell phone is small and portable. Where the hell are you going to put the console? In your pocket? Good luck with that. LOL. And even if you do somehow manage to carry it around with you, where the hell are you going to plug it in and where the hell is the screen?

Sorry but it's just an idea that literally makes no sense whatsoever. It's almost like Sony, Microsoft, etc. take turns each generation trying to fuck themselves over and I for one, just don't see the point in taking the chance that causes that to happen.

But all the things I mentioned were risks as in a new product or policies.

Not that cellphones have upgrade plans but the iPhone was brand new to the phone market.
The orig XBO policies would have brand new to consoles.
Whether or not Nintendo got lucky with the Wii it was a risk coming off the Gamecube and seeing what the PS2, Xbox were.
The Wii U was a risk - by basically not doing a Wii 2 and doing that tablet controller.

And why are you required to get a Neo?

And its funny that all those failed attempts were by Sega....that seemed/seems to not know how to run a company. Especially compared to Nintendo or Sony or MS.

 

[mckmas8808]

And what again is the 3DS-N3DS debacle?

From my understanding it happened with only one game.

 

[Lady Gaia]

The better question is -

Why?

PlayStation 4 is murdering, crushing and destroying their competition so when you truly think about it, why even bother? Sit back, relax and ride it out until PS5.

To anyone used to working in a competitive market your question reads as "you're in the driver's seat with a passionate following, so why not coast until your competitors have a chance to catch up by starting over with an even playing field?" If you want to make significant changes in your long-term business model the best time to do so is when you're riding high. You've got the market's attention and trust and can build on your success.

Of course to do so you need to offer something the market actually wants. The gamble here is that the market has room for a premium offering, and that developers will ultimately prefer an incrementally evolving platform to one where they throw everything out and start from scratch with the next generation. I think they're right and that the gamble will pay off but the truth is nobody knows for certain at this point.

 

[jroc74]

From my understanding it happened with only one game.

Right. 1 game. Maybe 2....and from my understand they were Wii, Wii U games originally.
If folks mean the SNES VC games being exclusive to N3DS...thats a Nintendo thing. Sony so far hasnt said anything will be Neo exclusive.

Part of the 3DS-N3DS issue is the tech thats in the 3DS. So I still dont get why ppl bring up the 3DS-N3DS in comparison to PS4, Neo.

To anyone used to working in a competitive market your question reads as "you're in the driver's seat with a passionate following, so why not coast until your competitors have a chance to catch up by starting over with an even playing field?" If you want to make significant changes in your long-term business model the best time to do so is when you're riding high. You've got the market's attention and trust and can build on your success.

Of course to do so you need to offer something the market actually wants. The gamble here is that the market has room for a premium offering, and that developers will ultimately prefer an incrementally evolving platform to one where they throw everything out and start from scratch with the next generation. I think they're right and that the gamble will pay off but the truth is nobody knows for certain at this point.

Exactly. Coasting costs Palm, Blackberry and is hurting MS with Win Mo. Its fine to coast but at the same time dont rest on your laurels.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

To anyone used to working in a competitive market your question reads as "you're in the driver's seat with a passionate following, so why not coast until your competitors have a chance to catch up by starting over with an even playing field?" If you want to make significant changes in your long-term business model the best time to do so is when you're riding high. You've got the market's attention and trust and can build on your success.

Of course to do so you need to offer something the market actually wants. The gamble here is that the market has room for a premium offering, and that developers will ultimately prefer an incrementally evolving platform to one where they throw everything out and start from scratch with the next generation. I think they're right and that the gamble will pay off but the truth is nobody knows for certain at this point.

Good point.

I still stubbornly maintain my position of distaste with the Neo. However, you're correct in that train of thought. Sony doesn't want another PS3-X360 scenario where they lost a good chunk of market share so this would be a good way to keep the good will generated from the PS4.

Now, on the subject of taking a gamble, here I too agree with you. If it pays off this will keep Sony as top dog making it much harder to dislodge - salty old fucks like me be damned.

If it fails, well, the salty old fucks like me will have have our moment then return to our regular schedules of yelling at clouds

 

[mckmas8808]

Good point.

I still stubbornly maintain my position of distaste with the Neo. However, you're correct in that train of thought. Sony doesn't want another PS3-X360 scenario where they lost a good chunk of market share so this would be a good way to keep the good will generated from the PS4.

Now, on the subject of taking a gamble, here I too agree with you. If it pays off this will keep Sony as top dog making it much harder to dislodge - salty old fucks like me be damned.

If it fails, well, the salty old fucks like me will have have our moment then return to our regular schedules of yelling at clouds

Yep. And if it fails, then people like you that hate the NEO have nothing to worry about as things will go back to how they are right now. Normal.

 

[Abdiel]

Good point.

I still stubbornly maintain my position of distaste with the Neo. However, you're correct in that train of thought. Sony doesn't want another PS3-X360 scenario where they lost a good chunk of market share so this would be a good way to keep the good will generated from the PS4.

Now, on the subject of taking a gamble, here I too agree with you. If it pays off this will keep Sony as top dog making it much harder to dislodge - salty old fucks like me be damned.

If it fails, well, the salty old fucks like me will have have our moment then return to our regular schedules of yelling at clouds

As long as they continue to provide exactly what you paid for, and what every consumer who will continue to buy the existing core model pays for, this is just a way for them to extend reach in the market. It also does so without sacrificing their existing customers.

All the documentation and information we've been given from leaks and comments from those with eyes on it seems to speak to Sony approaching this with awareness of what fracturing the base would mean, and avoiding that entirely.

It's different, sure, but that just means it's different. Doesn't mean bad or good, if you're not interested. It's a new option for customers.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Yep. And if it fails, then people like you that hate the NEO have nothing to worry about as things will go back to how they are right now. Normal.

Beauty of the market getting to have the final say.

Over in the Giant Bomb thread, AmyS posted this from CNBC:

Interesting differences in how mass media is reacting to this thing versus the core gaming outlets.

 

[Jacksinthe]

How is them coming out with a new console in 2019 that uses x86 but has better specs, hmb2 and all that not a shorter dev cycle than last gen?

Last gen went on for like 7-8 years. If they release a new console 2019 that will be 6 years PS4 will be out and keeping it x86 would help with backwards compatibility in software and probably your tools and engines.

If they keep it x86 and the hardware stays AMD based, I don't see it being that big of a change compared to going from Power PC to x86.

So if they stay the course for 3 more years, and the next console is x86 with more headroom, I don't see you having to rewrite everything.

Is the PS4 already tapped out for your engine and work? Because the progression in IQ in the past 2 years would say otherwise.

Development cyle. Not console cycle/generation.

Do you use a middleware toolset like Unreal Engine 4 at the moment?

Yes for the engine (Unity). All of the middleware i write myself as i would rather not have to wait for a 3rd party to update a tool i am using when the SDK or Unity gets an update. So I write all of my own stuff for PS4 and PC. Not that there is anything wrong with devs that use 3rd party extensions - but I don't like waiting for updates and i would rather write a custom solution 100% suited for my needs and hardware vs an all-in-one tool.

 

[martino]

Beauty of the market getting to have the final say.

Over in the Giant Bomb thread, AmyS posted this from CNBC:

Interesting differences in how mass media is reacting to this thing versus the core gaming outlets.

I found it mostly sad because it shows low level of journalism and investigation before writing something.

On another matter have u seen battlemage lichdom ? this is what sony certification can accept on ps4 . I will be a ps4k owner because i can . A chance everybody won't have...i hope for them not lot of games will be "battlemaged" on ps4 because of they the new developpement condition and because they are allowed to do it.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

As long as they continue to provide exactly what you paid for, and what every consumer who will continue to buy the existing core model pays for, this is just a way for them to extend reach in the market. It also does so without sacrificing their existing customers.

All the documentation and information we've been given from leaks and comments from those with eyes on it seems to speak to Sony approaching this with awareness of what fracturing the base would mean, and avoiding that entirely.

It's different, sure, but that just means it's different. Doesn't mean bad or good, if you're not interested. It's a new option for customers.

To the bolded bits of your statement..

This is the thing keeping me in check, also it helps to get feedback from devs on this board that this shouldn't be a bad thing.

Results speak for themselves, I look forward to when the games drop for both

 

[Deleted member 471617]

But all the things I mentioned were risks as in a new product or policies.

Not that cellphones have upgrade plans but the iPhone was brand new to the phone market.
The orig XBO policies would have brand new to consoles.
Whether or not Nintendo got lucky with the Wii it was a risk coming off the Gamecube and seeing what the PS2, Xbox were.
The Wii U was a risk - by basically not doing a Wii 2 and doing that tablet controller.

And why are you required to get a Neo?

And its funny that all those failed attempts were by Sega....that seemed/seems to not know how to run a company. Especially compared to Nintendo or Sony or MS.

Aside from the Wii, none of those risks console wise paid off. The original Xbox One policies is the problem...basically, trying to police everything. Sorry but no thanks.

As of now, im not required to buy a Neo and even though the specs is a minimal increase, what happens when a game like Horizon gets released at a locked 1080P and 60FPS on Neo but on the current PS4, it's 1080P but with the frame rate jumping around under 30FPS.

Colin is right when he talks about "exclusives" on Neo. The upgraded resolution and frame rate IS the exclusive that you wouldn't be getting on the current PS4. Owning the current PS4 and seeing a game run, look and play better on Neo is basically what gamers were mad about three years ago when games were cross-gen. It's essentially the same thing but within the same generation which has never happened before.

As for what Sega did, Atari released the Jaguar CD and it all bombed. NEC released the Turbo Grafx CD and that bombed. Forgot the company name but I think that it was Matsutita (sp?) who wanted to release the M2 and the original idea was it being an upgrade to the 3DO but was then changed into an actual console even though im probably not 100% accurate on that.

Nintendo was smart and never did anything like what Sega did and you can at least say, that 15 years after Sega went third party, Nintendo is still manufacturing consoles. Sony and Microsoft never did that either because well, why would they?

Just like now, why would they? Seriously, none of it makes any sense at all. PS4 isn't at 4m or even 14m. It's 40m. I would continue to build on that as opposed to taking a chance hurting and killing the momentum and seeing sales decrease.

I don't believe that Sony will talk about PS4.5 until a few weeks before release. I'll be shocked if they talk about this at E3 simply because if it gets released in October/November, why would anyone who wants to buy a PS4 buy one between June (after E3) and before the Neo gets released?

Their sales will take a huge hit and all the momentum and good will that they built over the last three years will be for the most part wiped out in an instant and for what? A minimal spec increase? To sell Sony's 4K TV's? Neither of these two things is worth taking the chance on fucking up what they currently have - domination.

I don't see how Sony can market any of this in a positive way, especially to those who just purchased a PS4 this year or past Holiday season. Basically, that would make the console obsolete after one year to those who just bought one. Don't see how anyone can view this as anything but a negative. Just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

Me personally - I would scrap the entire idea and just ride it out until PS5 which if for example, was to release at the end of 2018, that would make more sense as opposed to releasing PS4.5.

 

[geordiemp]

Arrogant Sony is back.

Stupid posts are back as well, but there is not much we can do about it.

Everybody is doing iterative consoles....but you chose your hate on Sony - why is that I wonder ?

 

[Movalpolos]

I found it mostly sad because it shows low level of journalism and investigation before writing something.

On another matter have u seen battlemage lichdom ? this is what sony certification can accept on ps4 . I will be a ps4k owner because i can . A chance everybody won't have...i hope for them not lot of games will be "battlemaged" on ps4 because of they the new developpement condition and because they are allowed to do it.

That game is shit on both systems.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Stupid posts are back as well, but there is not much we can do about it.

Everybody is doing iterative consoles....but you chose your hate on Sony - why is that I wonder ?

Who's everybody? Sony is the only one of the three that are doing this. Microsoft isn't doing this as of now and Nintendo is doing an entire new console that has nothing to do with Wii U. It's going to be Wii U version 2 or some crap.

Sony did stupid shit when they released PlayStation 3. Microsoft did stupid shit when they announced Xbox One and then went back on all of it. Now, Sony is doing shit again but unlike the previous two, this is worse because it's in the middle of a generation as opposed to the beginning of a new generation.

 

[mechphree]

Heres my take on the whole issue.

I look at the PS4.5 OR neo as basically the new iteration of a iPhone.
Sure I got the iPhone 6 S and it runs all the games I want to fine. But the newer iPhone 6 SE will run those same games slightly better. I have no problem with that. I think people are wayyyy to in the bubble when it comes to this hardware idea. The actual consumer loves the idea of purchasing the new shiny hardware. Do people think when Apple releases a new iPhone literally the previous version automatically becomes obsolete? No. Developers still make games that run on a variety of devices.

What I think the BIGGER issue is though is Sony is going to have to market this in a way and PROVE to the consumer this incremental update is actually worth it. Slightly better frame rate and a few particle effects imo isn't enough to warrant the upgrade but for others it might be.

 

[Frag Waffles]

I see a lot of people questioning why Sony would do this when they are dominating. To me it's pretty clear why they are, to try rope people into the "PlayStation" ecosystem so they don't have to start from scratch every 6 years and re-convince everyone that their new system is the one to have.

This gen, as well as last gen prove that the mass market dont care much about the "Xbox" or "PlayStation" brands. Consumers are opting for the console that has caught on, and that their friends and family are playing. Just like the 360 and wii did initially last gen and the ps4 this gen.

So while yes, Sony could sit back and ride the wave, what happens when in two years, Microsoft strikes gold with their brand new console, just like Sony did with the ps4, and suddenly Sony is caught with their pants down while the mass market along with third parties flock to the hot console? It happened to the PS3, it happened to the Wii U and it happened to the Xbox One.

Blur the lines between console generations, and try to minimize the risk of starting from scratch while you are on top. Makes sense to me and I'm excited to see how it pans out.

 

[martino]

That game is shit on both systems.

Never said xone certification is not a joke ...
It needs to be considering the box.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I see a lot of people questioning why Sony would do this when they are dominating. To me it's pretty clear why they are, to try rope people into the "PlayStation" ecosystem so they don't have to start from scratch every 6 years and re-convince everyone that their new system is the one to have.

This gen, as well as last gen prove that the mass market dont care much about the "Xbox" or "PlayStation" brands. Consumers are opting for the console that has caught on, and that their friends and family are playing. Just like the 360 and wii did initially last gen and the ps4 this gen.

So while yes, Sony could sit back and ride the wave, what happens when in two years, Microsoft strikes gold with their brand new console, just like Sony did with the ps4, and suddenly Sony is caught with their pants down while the mass market along with third parties flock to the hot console? It happened to the PS3, it happened to the Wii U and it happened to the Xbox One.

Technically you don't need iterations for any of this though. You could have regular 5 year intervals and achieve the same thing. However....

Blur the lines between console generations, and try to minimize the risk of starting from scratch while you are on top. Makes sense to me and I'm excited to see how it pans out.

...changing the psychology of the behavior is an interesting point. People already agonize over losing 99 cent apps. The idea of losing games that once went for $60 has go to be like a vice grip.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes for the engine (Unity). All of the middleware i write myself as i would rather not have to wait for a 3rd party to update a tool i am using when the SDK or Unity gets an update. So I write all of my own stuff for PS4 and PC. Not that there is anything wrong with devs that use 3rd party extensions - but I don't like waiting for updates and i would rather write a custom solution 100% suited for my needs and hardware vs an all-in-one tool.

Awesome, so as long as Unity updates there software for the NEO to make games scale easier then all "SHOULD" be fine.

I hope Sony is working directly with them to help Unity do this in the future.

 

[mrklaw]

Can I dare ask how publishers feel about Neo? I wonder if it is more attractive to them, as they will benefit from smoother development cycles and more predictable costs, plus lower effective cross gen costs if everything stays on x86. Developers would obviously prefer not to do more than necessary, but will have to follow the money

 

[jroc74]

Aside from the Wii, none of those risks console wise paid off. The original Xbox One policies is the problem...basically, trying to police everything. Sorry but no thanks.

As of now, im not required to buy a Neo and even though the specs is a minimal increase, what happens when a game like Horizon gets released at a locked 1080P and 60FPS on Neo but on the current PS4, it's 1080P but with the frame rate jumping around under 30FPS.

Colin is right when he talks about "exclusives" on Neo. The upgraded resolution and frame rate IS the exclusive that you wouldn't be getting on the current PS4. Owning the current PS4 and seeing a game run, look and play better on Neo is basically what gamers were mad about three years ago when games were cross-gen. It's essentially the same thing but within the same generation which has never happened before.

As for what Sega did, Atari released the Jaguar CD and it all bombed. NEC released the Turbo Grafx CD and that bombed. Forgot the company name but I think that it was Matsutita (sp?) who wanted to release the M2 and the original idea was it being an upgrade to the 3DO but was then changed into an actual console even though im probably not 100% accurate on that.

Nintendo was smart and never did anything like what Sega did and you can at least say, that 15 years after Sega went third party, Nintendo is still manufacturing consoles. Sony and Microsoft never did that either because well, why would they?

Just like now, why would they? Seriously, none of it makes any sense at all. PS4 isn't at 4m or even 14m. It's 40m. I would continue to build on that as opposed to taking a chance hurting and killing the momentum and seeing sales decrease.

I don't believe that Sony will talk about PS4.5 until a few weeks before release. I'll be shocked if they talk about this at E3 simply because if it gets released in October/November, why would anyone who wants to buy a PS4 buy one between June (after E3) and before the Neo gets released?

Their sales will take a huge hit and all the momentum and good will that they built over the last three years will be for the most part wiped out in an instant and for what? A minimal spec increase? To sell Sony's 4K TV's? Neither of these two things is worth taking the chance on fucking up what they currently have - domination.

I don't see how Sony can market any of this in a positive way, especially to those who just purchased a PS4 this year or past Holiday season. Basically, that would make the console obsolete after one year to those who just bought one. Don't see how anyone can view this as anything but a negative. Just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

Me personally - I would scrap the entire idea and just ride it out until PS5 which if for example, was to release at the end of 2018, that would make more sense as opposed to releasing PS4.5.

But comparing cross gen games to same gen games and the same game doesnt seem all that comparable to me. (There wont be 2 different games for PS4 and Neo. Its one game with Neo benefits only for Neo owners) Content and features were actually dropped on last gen in some cases. Resolution, performance was what it was because its last gen consoles. This isnt dropping anything its adding if you have a Neo. And those added benefits probably wouldnt be possible on the PS4 without some compromise somewhere.

Look at it like this: say you have a game that has DLC or a patch for something that adds something new to the game.. You dont have the harddrive space.

What happens? You game will still be the way it is until you free up harddrive space or get a bigger harddrive. Your game will work fine...you just need space to get the added benefits. I had this happen to me on.....PS3.... And it was a smallish game, I think it was Pain.

If the N3DS never existed there would be no N3DS comparisons. And Hyrule Warriors and Xenobaldes 3D would either not exist on 3DS or still run the way they do now. Xenoblades 3D is only playable on N3DS.

I dont know why SNES VC isnt available on 3DS....the tech in the 3DS must really suck. But all this a Nintendo thing. Sony hasnt shown that thats their plan yet.

If the Neo never comes out games would still perform as they are now and will in the future on PS4. Even when it comes out that will still be the case. I believe by Sony having it so its one game but with Neo benefits for Neo owners the base game still has to run to some standard for PS4.

One thing ppl are also forgetting is this gen Sony paid attention to feedback to the competition. Namely XBO and their orig policies. I would like to think they paid attention to the feedback about N3DS too.