Keihart
Member
That's what you get when you take tweets as news without context.
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Colin Moriarty of Kinda Funny: source says "most developers are not happy with PS4.5"
- Thread starter Chobel
- Start date
That's what you get when you take tweets as news without context.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Common sense is hard.
Movalpolos
Banned
Couldn't agree more.
So treat everything Colin says like Fox News reporting. Got it. I'll make sure to take that advice.
I like Colin, I respect his perspective on most issues in regards to gaming and Sony in particular, but his reaction here is rather overblown, and from what we've seen of developer commentary so far from the devs actually on gaf is in stark contrast to his tweet.
I'd much prefer that we wait and see how Sony actually deploys and implements things, since from what gopher and Matt said, these concerns have already been considered.
I'd much prefer that we wait and see how Sony actually deploys and implements things, since from what gopher and Matt said, these concerns have already been considered.
GlamFM
Banned
Meh.... watching this right now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqhBdCYymuQ
Yeah, I´m taking his tweet with a grain of salt....
EDIT: A huge grain of salt actually, he´s waaaaaaay too emotional over this to be taken seriously.
This video is almost a meltdown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqhBdCYymuQ
Yeah, I´m taking his tweet with a grain of salt....
EDIT: A huge grain of salt actually, he´s waaaaaaay too emotional over this to be taken seriously.
This video is almost a meltdown.
More like: He doesn't like the 'NEO'. You don't like the 'NEO'.
It's just your and Colins opinion that it is a bad idea.
For me and for a lot of other gamers/Neogaf members, it's a brilliant idea. Brilliant for gamers and brilliant for the console biz.
JuanPistola
Neo Member
I think PS4 'Neo' detractors are missing the point. Their arguments are always about equality, saying people who bought the original console will feel ripped off, also about devs having to spend more time/resources developing.
I wonder when developers put a game on PC, how do they handle all the different hardware? I wouldn't think that's such a big issue, they could just target the original console and then add some perks for the new one.
Also, I bought an original PS4 and feel totally ok with an upgraded PS4 coming out, it gives you choice, the games were not going to look better anyways with the current hardware, and at the time I paid for what was good tech. Now I would love to have the option to upgrade...
As long as they support each console for at least 5-6 years nobody should be angry with this IMHO.
I wonder when developers put a game on PC, how do they handle all the different hardware? I wouldn't think that's such a big issue, they could just target the original console and then add some perks for the new one.
Also, I bought an original PS4 and feel totally ok with an upgraded PS4 coming out, it gives you choice, the games were not going to look better anyways with the current hardware, and at the time I paid for what was good tech. Now I would love to have the option to upgrade...
As long as they support each console for at least 5-6 years nobody should be angry with this IMHO.
Movalpolos
Banned
Some of the most cringe-worthy shit I have ever seen.
I believe a third party developer. Chimes in from time to time.
GlamFM
Banned
Yeah, it´s like a youtube comment section screaming at you for 30 minutes straight.
I'm English so I don't get that reference. But I'd advise simply to treat everything considerately until you understand the context of what someone is saying. And if they don't explain every single facet of what they are saying in minute detail for you - just use common sense instead of over reacting to the most unlikely possible explanation of what they mean.
Swass
Member
Completely agree, his tweet feels like it was put out there to help support his 25 minute tirade.. wouldn't be surprised if there isn't even a source to begin with.
Movalpolos
Banned
Sorry but no. The way this is worded is intentionally meant to distort the meaning.
I'm just not going to rake someone over the coals for journalistic standards on an informal platform like Twitter.
Should Colin have been clearer? Sure, call him on that. But I'm not going to pretend he doesn't have a point when you have the Bioware founder calling it 'a gigantic pain in the ass.' There are some developers out there that aren't too keen on the PS4K.
The thing is we still don't know what to expect and what effect this will have on the industry. But, you know, some corners of the web have to fire up the internet rage machine at the slightest provocation. The thing that destroys lives and sucks the joy out of our favorite hobby. So whatever, burn shit down.
Should Colin have been clearer? Sure, call him on that. But I'm not going to pretend he doesn't have a point when you have the Bioware founder calling it 'a gigantic pain in the ass.' There are some developers out there that aren't too keen on the PS4K.
The thing is we still don't know what to expect and what effect this will have on the industry. But, you know, some corners of the web have to fire up the internet rage machine at the slightest provocation. The thing that destroys lives and sucks the joy out of our favorite hobby. So whatever, burn shit down.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But it's going against what most Devs that actually post here in GAF have said. So what do you want us to do with this information?
Keihart
Member
I can only speak for myself but my problem with it is beyond wanting to spend or not money on a new model, instead is about how this will afect the ecosystem and how it opens the door to iterative hardware wich i find to be a horrible path if other industries are any indication.
This model mean very little if next generation comes in 2018 and PS4 variants are dropped quickly but it means a lot for the industry if it opens the pathf for the iterative model ending generations and spreading support through more models as years go by.
I'm sure there was a source, but I'm 100% sure (and that's even without any proof) that "most devs" in this case probably means like 3 or 4 devs from various levels of the industry.
I can't imagine Colin single handedly has his finger on the pulse of the developer community at large.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
And that has to do with a few people being overly pedantic about the wording of a tweet and failing to use basic common sense how?
No? So it's more likely that he meant to imply "Most of all the developers in the whole world" rather than "Most of the developers they spoke to"?
I'm not going round in circles with you. Just re-read our last exchange until it sinks in.
Matt and who else?
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
Ooooooohhhhhh THAT'S Colin Moriarty.
:lol
Will probably wait until an adult wades in on the issue before being concerned.
JuanPistola
Neo Member
It could cause some confusion and I agree it would be a challenge... but I wouldn't be mad at iterative consoles. Now that they have a more PC like architecture, why keep reinventing the wheel?
I don't see Sony or MS researching new chips with super crazy architectures in the near future. Hardware can evolve to enable better software. The big challenge is how often that should happen and how to spread the word about it, again IMO.
CosmicQueso
Member
The tweet was picked up by multiple outlets as stating fact, or the universal in your example. When in fact, it's the latter.
The failure to include some kind of measure on the group responding to his source is a relevant factor.
The tweet makes a blanket statement about the development community, not some portion of it.
No one is saying the tweet is wrong or right, or stating that every developer loves or hates the idea.
And he can be a pundit, that's great. Been listening to him for years and years every week. In this case, he should have provided context.
If all (EDIT) someone can do is break it down to console wars and agendas, they are clearly missing the point.
……forgetit
Member
People still talking about this? Colin Moriaty is an asshole and the main reason I stopped watching kinda funny stuff and the sole reason I stopped watching IGN PlayStation stuff. Why anyone woild listen to a word that dude says is beyond me.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Jack and Chubs.
Jack JUST made this statement on the last page.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=201623600&postcount=2561
By most, you mean like two, one of them being a Sony employee/developer. I think it's fair to say the reception has thus far been mixed.
Edit: ^^Make that three! Sort of.
What? I'm specifically addressing someone who is doing just that. I haven't stated how I personally feel on the subject once.
The debate began by someone saying Colin was being deliberately deceptive in his wording, even going as far as calling him a liar. That's what I'm arguing against right now.
CosmicQueso
Member
Sorry, did not mean specifically you, but the more indirect "someone". Will edit. Apologies.
Who also strangely flip-flopped on the whole thing..
timmyp53
Member
It's weird because I've always liked Colin way more then Greg but lately he just really irks me. Months and months of him looking like hes not invested in gaming, insufferable whining, always appearing lethargic and uninterested on his shows, and now this...
Papacheeks
Banned
Why not take the better discussion seen on IGN's take on it, and Jeff Gertzman's 2 cent's.
Jeff reiterates my thoughts on the possibilities of this backfiring and possibly putting the industry in a weird place that may not be for the better.
The Lobby- with Jeff about Neo
IGN Thoughts
More Polar smaller talk about Neo via IGN
Some people are in the middle on IGN as in not affected in the emotional tizzy Colin is in.
But Jeff's thoughts kind of reiterate my sentiment on where this could lead the industry, and ask the question of who asked for this? Developers outside maybe VR didn't, and history has shown as the IGN(9:57) talked at length challenging systems usually yield great results as time goes on, and more experience with the system.
I mean look at the IQ we have with exclusives on PS4. They are pretty damn stunning, and as their tools for their own development and engines mature they can get even more out of the system as time goes by.
Looking at Uncharted 1-Last of us shows a lot of improvement on PS3
The same can be said so far with looking at early launch games, compared to now. Infamous still looks amazing, but compare it to Uncharted 4, the order, or even Horizon IQ along with better art direction have really helped show what these systems can do.
People like myself and Jeff I would say are not in the minority if these feelings are shared across other entertainers and media heads who have been covering this medium for 15-20 years.
Ocarina_117
Banned
Despite what you think of him, isn't he quite reputable?
timmyp53
Member
He's reputable for sure as being a gamer not for breaking news or inside developer opinions.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Another opinion of mine, and I don't know any of this to be fact, but this makes good business sense:
Does anyone believe that Sony and Microsoft, by extension of rumors of Xbox neXt, would pull the trigger on R&D and moving forward with a supposed new 0.5 box WITHOUT polling developers? Without making sure an overwhelming majority of devs were on board?
Even if there are a few detractors they would be forced to assimilate as other devs hop in board. Sony learned a lot from PS3 mistakes. MS learned a lot from XO mistakes. The work involved to bring a new box to market wouldn't be done unless it had majority support, IMO.
So, in the context of this tweet and armed with JUST that speculation I made above above - there's a logical conclusion to be drawn. I have zero interest in going against Colin since I have nothing to gain and frankly am only familiar with him as a guy that used to be on IGN Beyond (if I'm not mistaken). Then again I'm just a "wage-slave hippie indie dev" who likes progression in tech and better outlets and larger audiences for devs to express themselves.
Does anyone believe that Sony and Microsoft, by extension of rumors of Xbox neXt, would pull the trigger on R&D and moving forward with a supposed new 0.5 box WITHOUT polling developers? Without making sure an overwhelming majority of devs were on board?
Even if there are a few detractors they would be forced to assimilate as other devs hop in board. Sony learned a lot from PS3 mistakes. MS learned a lot from XO mistakes. The work involved to bring a new box to market wouldn't be done unless it had majority support, IMO.
So, in the context of this tweet and armed with JUST that speculation I made above above - there's a logical conclusion to be drawn. I have zero interest in going against Colin since I have nothing to gain and frankly am only familiar with him as a guy that used to be on IGN Beyond (if I'm not mistaken). Then again I'm just a "wage-slave hippie indie dev" who likes progression in tech and better outlets and larger audiences for devs to express themselves.
Obviously he is. And he also no doubt has good contacts in the industry, especially with respect to Playstation orientated stuff. With all that being said, he's still only human, and emotions will always play a role.
Ocarina_117
Banned
Hmmm. To me it just seems like common sense it'll be an annoyance for some developers. More work for them to optimise the game for more SKUs; which will be compounded should Microsoft also decide to release another SKU.
Silent Hill
Banned
Thinking from a consumer point of view, I think Colin is 100% right. For those of us like myself who are hardcore into it, its not going to be a problem. But for those who have just purchased a PS4 then I can see where Colin is getting at. And for the devs its going to cost more. I wonder why Sony is doing this. I think its for a better PSVR experience personally.
Looking forward to see what Sony reveals at E3.
Looking forward to see what Sony reveals at E3.
Branniganz Love
Member
I don't think there is any doubt he has sources in the industry. I don't think I would ever consider him as a reputable news source though, even if he did work for IGN. I've always seen him as an embarrassing fanboy and was kinda surprised to see so many positive opinions of him on GAF.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Depends on what the "real" reasons behind the PS4K are. Some speculate it might because of bottlenecks with VR, and that could've made Sony pull the trigger.
Of course, it could also be a move to keep MS from leapfrogging them with their rumored intermediate console update, but that is just an idea, without knowing who made the first moves/plans in this regard.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Yet these same devs more than likely put their games on PC, a far more chaotic development environment due to unknown hardware variables and nary a complaint is found like this alleged disappointment.
This whole thing ties in nicely with the Alex St John rhetoric about scheduled crunch vs proper project management. The consumer (this is me, also) responds well to carrying a catalog between boxes. Knowing purchases have a future on extensions and not exclusive to single hardware generations. Having more options and upgrades that take advantage of new tech vs stagnating.
I'm curious to see where this all goes.
I'm sure they referred to some of their first party at least, but it does seem like many are only just receiving dev kits, or haven't yet received them, so I guess it was a developer by developer thing.
Regarding your last paragraph, it's a difficult one. Because the PS4 is already selling so well, and adding the PS4K doesn't really add new software sales for developers, just the same sale but for an updated platform, so developers themselves are unlikely to make more money from this move, quite the contrary (due to the added costs in providing an updated version). Eg someone buys and plays their game on the PS4K instead of the PS4, but would have bought and played the PS4 version either way, had the former not existed. I suppose there is a chance the PS4K version attracts some PC only gamers, but I doubt it'll be a noteworthy draw outside of the ordinary.
So then there's the thing about added expression. Yes you get more power to express your vision a bit more, but at what cost? More development time, money, resources, testing etc. And then the question is, how many people will that extra effort even reach, and will that extra expression even be that creative? The game has to be the same at the end of the day, so really a developers expression is limited to simple things like resolution, performance or a few graphical tweaks here and there. It's not like creatively the PS4K suddenly let's developers run wild, they're still ultimately held back by the PS4.
GlamFM
Banned
Thanks, watching right now.
xaosslug
Member
Using his 'this is nothing like cell phones' argument... peeps do know that, at one point in time, there were probably grown ass men crying about upgrading cell phones every 18mos never working as well? LOL
Anyway, for months pundits have been saying 'the old console model is DYING!!!' and now SONY is trying to do something - taking a v. big risk - and everyone is like 'omg, what are you doing?!?!' and losing their minds... >_>
Damned if they do, damned if they don't tbh. smh
Steve Youngblood
Member
I know you're talking about developers, but I'm going to answer as a consumer. First, I'll start by noting that I understand the drawbacks. The problem with moves like this mid-generation is that you can easily find yourself having to balance the following: how do you make the product compelling enough that it will actually sell without making it too compelling such that you alienate the existing base you have that isn't plan on upgrading immediately? In theory, I think the answer is pretty simple, and I'll come back to that later. In practice, I understand that it can be difficult. If your primary concern is selling to the biggest audience possible, it would be easy to half-ass an "upgraded" port. If your primary concern is pushing tech, it can be easy to see situations where the base PS4 version becomes a secondary concern.
But the advantages? I know I'm attacking this from the perspective of someone that enjoys the freedom of PC gaming, but I do think it can be a net positive that tech enthusiasts have the option to throw a little more money at performance if they want to. I understand that this isn't how consoles traditionally work, but I like that when I buy a new PC game, if I'm not happy with performance, I can look at benchmarks and figure out whether it's time to update the GPU. I have to turn the settings down to high when I want to use Ultra? If I'm willing to throw money at this I can!
Now maybe the existence of better tech allows devs to be "lazier" instead of optimizing for what they have. But I feel like even if devs go crazy and "code to the metal," you're always going to run into a wall in one form or another. People love a game like Bloodborne but cite technical problems that dampen the experience for some. And that game existed long before there were even whispers about a PS4.5. Now, I'm not saying that the added horsepower of this new box is a magic bullet that will fix everything. But what if it did allow for a more stable performance? Does that not present a good option for customers who want that experience?
Like I said, I'm not blind to the pitfalls. Consoles aren't PCs. I doubt everything will go as swimmingly as I might like. As a current PS4 owner, I'm certainly not sold on an upgraded console site unseen. However, I am open to the possibility that it could very well be a nice option for people that are willing to pay for performance.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
I think the problem with his tweet is because of a variety of factors that make the comment itself a little- I wouldn't say dangerous, but at least reckless in regards to the potential impact it could have for this *STILL NOT 100% CONFIRMED OR ANNOUNCED* product in the eyes of KF fans, Colin's followers, general PS fans/consumers, and the Playstation image that they haven't even begun to build for this thing.
Despite *just* being a youtube personality now, Colin still carries a LOT of weight in the gaming and PS community. Yes, they likely do have connections, but without backing up their claim with numbers we don't have any reason other than blind faith to view the comment as having any integrity.
The concern I think some are trying to express here is that Colin basically could be (unknowingly?) abusing his position and "power" online by making an unsubstantiated claim about a product that doesn't publicly exist yet, because instead of calmly thinking things through he's getting upset and pissed and making a snarky comment. Had he followed it up with something like "8 individuals across 5 companies were surveyed regarding the Neo docs" this thread may not exist in it's current form.
To be clear, I'm in no way saying he doesn't have the right to tweet whatever he wants to be vague, but I am saying that it's easy to cause***** a completely unnecessary shitstorm by doing so without providing any clarity. The talk about him being "emotional" is just folks trying to figure out why he's suddenly acting this way as opposed to his normal (IMO) calculated manner and by providing clarity/citation.
EDIT: and he of all people knows what impact his words have, so it's hard to imagine he isn't aware it could cause a shitstorm. whether or not he did it intentionally because he personally doesn't like the PS4.5 idea is impossible to discuss without being 100% speculative.*****
Despite *just* being a youtube personality now, Colin still carries a LOT of weight in the gaming and PS community. Yes, they likely do have connections, but without backing up their claim with numbers we don't have any reason other than blind faith to view the comment as having any integrity.
The concern I think some are trying to express here is that Colin basically could be (unknowingly?) abusing his position and "power" online by making an unsubstantiated claim about a product that doesn't publicly exist yet, because instead of calmly thinking things through he's getting upset and pissed and making a snarky comment. Had he followed it up with something like "8 individuals across 5 companies were surveyed regarding the Neo docs" this thread may not exist in it's current form.
To be clear, I'm in no way saying he doesn't have the right to tweet whatever he wants to be vague, but I am saying that it's easy to cause***** a completely unnecessary shitstorm by doing so without providing any clarity. The talk about him being "emotional" is just folks trying to figure out why he's suddenly acting this way as opposed to his normal (IMO) calculated manner and by providing clarity/citation.
EDIT: and he of all people knows what impact his words have, so it's hard to imagine he isn't aware it could cause a shitstorm. whether or not he did it intentionally because he personally doesn't like the PS4.5 idea is impossible to discuss without being 100% speculative.*****
H.Cornerstone
Member
Listening to PS I love you and the Gamescast: this is how I view Colin at the moment:
He's like those old fashioned baseball fans who want nothing to change.
I think its way too early to get angry about this, and we'll see what Sony says come E3.
Holy Crap Jeff looks like a completely different person.
He's like those old fashioned baseball fans who want nothing to change.
I think its way too early to get angry about this, and we'll see what Sony says come E3.
Holy Crap Jeff looks like a completely different person.
Astral Dog
Member
And what if they arent happy, where will they go, the NX?
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
You don't know Colin if you think he is emotional. He is one of the most rational, emotionless people I know of.
Why are you in every thread about PS4K trying to belittle everyone who doesn't think its a great idea.