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Covid 19 Thread: [no bitching about masks of Fauci edition]

Got threatened again this week. Friends of mine who are also in healthcare saying they're giving up trying to do good for the communities they serve in. Simply asking "Are you vaccinated" prompts screaming from patients. Starting to be concerned that I'll have a patient shoot me at some point.
 
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Keihart Keihart kindly linked you the post. Do you find my rebuttal convincing or do you still have questions?
I responded to that. the first half i find convincing, the second half not so much, sort of. I dont think the vaccine kills many people but some of the death rate related to cardiac arrest is concerning as I don't think that is pure chance. I would like a wider study on it.
 

12Goblins

Lil’ Gobbie
Got threatened again this week. Friends of mine who are also in healthcare saying they're giving up trying to do good for the communities they serve in. Simply asking "Are you vaccinated" prompts screaming from patients. Starting to be concerned that I'll have a patient shoot me at some point.
my covid icu is wild right now. its overflowing with a large number of unvaccinated largely non compliant misfits that tend to be the very picky type . Their families seem to be filled with drama, frustration, and anxiety. It makes for a fucking mad house.

Trust me, you don't want to be hospitalized right now if you are unvaccinated. That alone should be motivation for you to get vaccinated LOL. Or fucking lie if you have to get admitted... With how overworked everyone is right now and how the morale just seems to keep reaching new lows, Nobody is going to give a fuck about you when they have way too many patients to take care of. We try our very best not to hold resentment, but after what we've been through the last 2 years its been very hard

Problem is a lot of these people who tend to complain nonstop about the vaccine, are incapable of showing any appreciation, and go around postulating garbage theories about things they understand little to nothing about also tend to be entitled ingrates in other aspects of their life, which make for insufferable patients. maybe a bit harsh but that is the sentiment held

Also anybody getting admitted to the hospital is getting fast tracked because of a desperate need for beds. It's fucked up
 
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D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Trust me, you don't want to be hospitalized right now if you are unvaccinated. That alone should be motivation for you to get vaccinated LOL. Or fucking lie if you have to get admitted... With how overworked everyone is right now and how the morale just seems to keep reaching new lows, Nobody is going to give a fuck about you when they have way too many patients to take care of. We try our very best not to hold resentment, but after what we've been through the last 2 years its been very hard

I see that the hateful atmosphere of this thread is now at the point where a supposedly professional medical practitioner now feels comfortable enough to openly admit to neglecting patients out of spite and suggest that it's not even an uncommon thing!
 

Keihart

Member
I responded to that. the first half i find convincing, the second half not so much, sort of. I dont think the vaccine kills many people but some of the death rate related to cardiac arrest is concerning as I don't think that is pure chance. I would like a wider study on it.
This channel is really good even before the covid stuff (although it gained lot of traction since covid), this video talks about what you are interested in.

How often is it caused by COVID?
How often is it caused by the mRNA vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna?
What are the symptoms of heart inflammation?
How is it diagnosed?
 
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Keihart

Member
I see that the hateful atmosphere of this thread is now at the point where a supposedly professional medical practitioner now feels comfortable enough to openly admit to neglecting patients out of spite and suggest that it's not even an uncommon thing!
3x
 

Ichabod

Banned
Started seeing an alarming number of news reports in my current city about an overwhelming surge of unvaccinated covid patients busting through the doors of hospitals, sluicing through the hallways, and overrunning anything in their path like Tetsuo at the end of Akira.

I've been seeing former colleagues facebook posting that "hospitals are running put of body bags!" and the like. Troubling stuff.

My ICU and my hospital's other units have been seeing an uptick in covid patients in the last few weeks as well, but nothing like grim reports I've been seeing. Still, "maybe my unit has been somewhat sheltered so far," I thought to myself.

So I went to the health dept website/covid tracker of my current city as well as the city I used to live in and compared reported deaths vs. total population...

0.2%...in both cities...

I see that the hateful atmosphere of this thread is now at the point where a supposedly professional medical practitioner now feels comfortable enough to openly admit to neglecting patients out of spite and suggest that it's not even an uncommon thing!

Don't take a look at r/nursing. Saddening as it is, it's a pretty tame take compared to the vitriol over there.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Thank you.

Given this premise, would you not agree that -

1. From the perspective of a government whose goal is to protect its citizens and reduce its citizens' pain and suffering, it should do all that it can to maximize the number of vaccinated citizens? Of course, we can agree that tactics like holding people down and vaccinating them against their will, or threatening them with jailtime are probably crossing the line, but other more reasonable means of encouragement should be utilized.

2. Citizens who want to do everything in their power to protect both themselves and their community should voluntarily opt for the vaccine in a show of community support and solidarity. To truly love thy neighbor and put it into practice, it is incumbent on everyone to get the vaccine and push up the vaccination rate as high as possible with the goal of reducing pain and sufferings as much as possible.

Not doing so would be willingly allowing more pain and suffering into this world via inaction.

I agree with all of this.

I suspect we disagree on the "level of encouragement" the govt uses to get people vaccinated. Not big on the idea of vaccine passports or getting fired because people chose not to get vaccinated (save for the health care field). What's reasonable encouragement and what isn't is what most people take issue with I believe.
 

Chankoras

Member
I see that the hateful atmosphere of this thread is now at the point where a supposedly professional medical practitioner now feels comfortable enough to openly admit to neglecting patients out of spite and suggest that it's not even an uncommon thing!
Not entirely fair to frame the frustration of health care professionals as just spite, these people are tired of the negligence of the patients themselves, is easy to judge from behind the keyboard, but don't forget they're humans under pressure.
 

Keihart

Member
Started seeing an alarming number of news reports in my current city about an overwhelming surge of unvaccinated covid patients busting through the doors of hospitals, sluicing through the hallways, and overrunning anything in their path like Tetsuo at the end of Akira.

I've been seeing former colleagues facebook posting that "hospitals are running put of body bags!" and the like. Troubling stuff.

My ICU and my hospital's other units have been seeing an uptick in covid patients in the last few weeks as well, but nothing like grim reports I've been seeing. Still, "maybe my unit has been somewhat sheltered so far," I thought to myself.

So I went to the health dept website/covid tracker of my current city as well as the city I used to live in and compared reported deaths vs. total population...

0.2%...in both cities...



Don't take a look at r/nursing. Saddening as it is, it's a pretty tame take compared to the vitriol over there.
I don't know the specifics of your situation, but the best numbers to be looking are "excess mortality", comparing total deaths between years to see the changes in the trends.
Diagnosed deaths seem to be always behind because of things like diagnostics or how the info gets tracked.

 
This channel is really good even before the covid stuff (although it gained lot of traction since covid), this video talks about what you are interested in.

How often is it caused by COVID?
How often is it caused by the mRNA vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna?
What are the symptoms of heart inflammation?
How is it diagnosed?

Informative video. But it misses important details. It gives the deaths prevented by the vaccine to covid but not the deaths from myocarditis(it gives incidences).
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Started seeing an alarming number of news reports in my current city about an overwhelming surge of unvaccinated covid patients busting through the doors of hospitals, sluicing through the hallways, and overrunning anything in their path like Tetsuo at the end of Akira.

I've been seeing former colleagues facebook posting that "hospitals are running put of body bags!" and the like. Troubling stuff.

My ICU and my hospital's other units have been seeing an uptick in covid patients in the last few weeks as well, but nothing like grim reports I've been seeing. Still, "maybe my unit has been somewhat sheltered so far," I thought to myself.

So I went to the health dept website/covid tracker of my current city as well as the city I used to live in and compared reported deaths vs. total population...

0.2%...in both cities...



Don't take a look at r/nursing. Saddening as it is, it's a pretty tame take compared to the vitriol over there.

There is without question an agenda being pushed by the mass media. Its purpose is both alarmism and also steering people towards certain beliefs/practices (namely, vaccination and the merits thereof). Anyone who doesn’t see this is literally blind. Story after story about infants in ICU or dying from COVID, pediatric ICU units filling up, hospitalizations among 30-40 year olds spiking (where is the data supporting all this? Certainly not available in any easily accessible format), endless stories of companies implementing vaccine mandates along with an utter lack of opposing viewpoints - as if there are no cogent philosophical and legal arguments to be made against them. It is a complete and utter joke, nakedly tendentious, and an affront to anyone with a modicum of intelligence and discernment. Its purpose is not to inform or educate, but to herd people to one opinion. It also gives the false impression to those who are opposed to vax mandates that they are in an extreme minority when in fact they are in the majority (50-70+% of people do not support vax mandates, even if they support vaccinations). This, again, is intentional, as people are less likely to “resist” if they feel they hold an extreme minority position. It’s all just terribly transparent. In my entire life I’ve never seen such a blatant, consolidated effort across all media outlets to push one agenda, one message. We are reaping the fruits of both the media consolidation of the 90’s and aughts as well as the lack of education and intellectual sophistication among the general populace which has been festering for decades now. We are living in truly frightening times.
 
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Belgorim

Member
Thanks for your first person input! It's always great to get insight from boots on the ground.

What is the current mood there surrounding delta?

The mood is of course varied. Since a lot of people are now vaccinated there is not much worrying going on. Hardly anyone is worried about younger kids for one since we had them in school all this time without many incidents. The only thing that changed for kids was that parents where no longer allowed to enter the buildings to pick them up and such, this was (mostly) all handled outdoors (even in the middle of winter). We will of course see what happens now since everyone will be back in school in a week and there will be outbreaks at least among the older kids (we of course had those last year as well). The recommendation for businesses are that everyone that can should stay WFH until October. So many people have worked from home since last spring now, and most of them continue doing so if possible until these recommendations lift.

What is also still in effect is that anyone having any symptom whatsoever should stay at home from work (payed of course) and get tested before going back (if symptoms stays for more than a few hours at least). I would say there is a consensus that asymptomatic spread is kind of rare here.

Even the few that was worried among my colleagues (teachers) are now of course vaccinated for the start of school this fall.so they are now naturally more relaxed. A few used face shields / masks last year out of choice and I doubt they will do that now. There is in general a high degree of trust that the vaccines will keep delta at bay.

Now of course there are stories about the rising number of infections, but deaths stayed really low during the "third wave" in the spring because of all the vaccinated elderly, so the vaccines clearly worked for other variants.

There are groups on facebook and such where worried teachers are demanding that everyone mask up and such in school (including kids) since delta should now apparently change everything for them, but those are not really representative of the general public.
 

FunkMiller

Member
Is there a non authoritarian state? China isn't communist, it just has a different style of capitalism. Western scientists would have been more than happy to make Covid 19 by accident. I think it's really just luck or bad operational security that it was China.

Do you think the Chinese government is uniquely evil in some way that most other governments are not?

This post highlights how poor your grip on the real world is. To equate the Chinese state with the US government - or any other democratised western developed nation - is so incredibly warped and twisted I don’t really know how to respond. I can argue the toss with many folks in this thread, but I’m not sure there’s much to say to someone who sees no moral, stylistic or political difference between China and our nations.
 

FunkMiller

Member
I see that the hateful atmosphere of this thread is now at the point where a supposedly professional medical practitioner now feels comfortable enough to openly admit to neglecting patients out of spite and suggest that it's not even an uncommon thing!

You seem like an intelligent chap. Is there part of you that can see how reviled anti-vaxxers are becoming, and consider that there may be justification for this? Instead of instantly jumping to the defence of anti-vax people, could you consider that maybe their position is so selfish and antisocial that it’s creating this frustration and disgust in even healthcare professionals? Consider that if nurses and doctors are feeling this way, then maybe, just maybe, the problem is the anti-vaxxers?
 
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Keihart

Member
There is without question an agenda being pushed by the mass media. Its purpose is both alarmism and also steering people towards certain beliefs/practices (namely, vaccination and the merits thereof). Anyone who doesn’t see this is literally blind. Story after story about infants in ICU or dying from COVID, pediatric ICU units filling up, hospitalizations among 30-40 year olds spiking (where is the data supporting all this? Certainly not available in any easily accessible format), endless stories of companies implementing vaccine mandates along with an utter lack of opposing viewpoints - as if there are no cogent philosophical and legal arguments to be made against them. It is a complete and utter joke, nakedly tendentious, and an affront to anyone with a modicum of intelligence and discernment. Its purpose is not to inform or educate, but to herd people to one opinion. It also gives the false impression to those who are opposed to vax mandates that they are in an extreme minority when in fact they are in the majority (50-70+% of people do not support vax mandates, even if they support vaccinations). This, again, is intentional, as people are less likely to “resist” if they feel they hold an extreme minority position. It’s all just terribly transparent. In my entire life I’ve never seen such a blatant, consolidated effort across all media outlets to push one agenda, one message. We are reaping the fruits of both the media consolidation of the 90’s and aughts as well as the lack of education and intellectual sophistication among the general populace which has been festering for decades now. We are living in truly frightening times.
I don't know dude, take a look at previous health campaigns going further than 20 years ago, it's always been as pushy or even more. The only difference that i see is that it's not as effective as it used to be, there is too much people that know better than believe mainstream media but on the flipside there is a bunch who ends up taking their advice from any corner in the internet.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Science also predicts that if you call people morons, the chances they will cooperate with whatever plan you are proposing are greatly reduced. Will you continue to ignore the science?

Who cares at this point? They are morons. They're killing others and getting themselves killed. They're causing healthcare systems to be overwhelmed so that other patients with unrelated ailments cannot be helped. Children and young mothers are literally dying because they believe in fantasy. The time to be tactful is over. Long over.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
my covid icu is wild right now. its overflowing with a large number of unvaccinated largely non compliant misfits that tend to be the very picky type . Their families seem to be filled with drama, frustration, and anxiety. It makes for a fucking mad house.

Trust me, you don't want to be hospitalized right now if you are unvaccinated. That alone should be motivation for you to get vaccinated LOL. Or fucking lie if you have to get admitted... With how overworked everyone is right now and how the morale just seems to keep reaching new lows, Nobody is going to give a fuck about you when they have way too many patients to take care of. We try our very best not to hold resentment, but after what we've been through the last 2 years its been very hard

Problem is a lot of these people who tend to complain nonstop about the vaccine, are incapable of showing any appreciation, and go around postulating garbage theories about things they understand little to nothing about also tend to be entitled ingrates in other aspects of their life, which make for insufferable patients. maybe a bit harsh but that is the sentiment held

Also anybody getting admitted to the hospital is getting fast tracked because of a desperate need for beds. It's fucked up
The lack of appreciation for their immediate situation and those trying to help them is an extension of the conceited worldview. They can't even take the littlests L or admit they're wrong in any way. By simply being asked for basic health information there's an opening in the mind for the possibility they were wrong, their political leaders were wrong. In their minds, that one little admittance means that both are wrong about everything. Maybe all the conspiracy theories and propaganda that is putting health workers and Americans at risk does start to unravel in individual psychologically when pressed with such a profound fact when simply asked about vaccination. Also, maybe they do realize the vaccine is effective and safe, the only reason they didn't get it is to be political. They didn't believe they'd face any consequences, maybe because God and other factors would keep them safe and unaccountable. Lots of mistaken fundamental beliefs being broken. They're vulnerable, scared, and lashing out.

Local story time:
I should've posted this one yesterday before your post. It's in regards to a more serious case, but shows an appreciation for the health network that is engaged. Unsure an antivaxxer would show that appreciation given their choices and previous activism before they go to hospital for COVID. Appreciation requires awareness, sensitivity, and compassion for those that care for them.


I am a 64-year-old grandma from West Kelowna and I just found out that I could write a letter to Castanet and I'm concerned about the people who work in our healthcare system, so here goes:
I want to thank the first responders, nurses doctors, care aids, kitchen staff, x-ray technicians, everyone in the lab that was doing the bloodwork every day, cleaning staff, counselors, dietitians and everyone in the physiotherapy rehab department.

It took all of those wonderful people to care for me when I was admitted to KGH April 9, 2020 with COVID-19. I couldn't see their faces until I tested negative for the virus because of the infection protection protocols in place. Every time I needed anything, whether it was a blood test ,water, repositioning, monitors to everything I needed when I was in a coma, everyone had to put on masks, headgear, goggles, gowns etc. and had to be so careful when they were coming in and out of my room.
...
I'm thankful for my doctor, physiotherapist, kinesiologist and the pulmonary rehab exercise instructors at KGH that have helped me in my recovery and ongoing challenges.
 

FunkMiller

Member
The lack of appreciation for their immediate situation and those trying to help them is an extension of the conceited worldview. They can't even take the littlests L or admit they're wrong in any way. By simply being asked for basic health information there's an opening in the mind for the possibility they were wrong, their political leaders were wrong. In their minds, that one little admittance means that both are wrong about everything. Maybe all the conspiracy theories and propaganda that is putting health workers and Americans at risk does start to unravel in individual psychologically when pressed with such a profound fact when simply asked about vaccination. Also, maybe they do realize the vaccine is effective and safe, the only reason they didn't get it is to be political. They didn't believe they'd face any consequences, maybe because God and other factors would keep them safe and unaccountable. Lots of mistaken fundamental beliefs being broken. They're vulnerable, scared, and lashing out.

Excellent summary of the psychological make-up of your average anti-vaxxer (or flat earther, Q Anoner, deep stater etc.)

The idea of personal conceit is probably the biggest determining factor. I'd imagine the venn diagram of cast-iron superego, and incredibly fragile ego overlap massively with these folks. The capacity to continue to believe that you are right, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, certainly requires both.
 

FunkMiller

Member
Got threatened again this week. Friends of mine who are also in healthcare saying they're giving up trying to do good for the communities they serve in. Simply asking "Are you vaccinated" prompts screaming from patients. Starting to be concerned that I'll have a patient shoot me at some point.

Yikes. That's horrifying. I know of health care workers here in the UK who are afraid of getting punched in the mouth by one of the mouth breathers, but the idea that you could get shot by one of them where you are must keep you up at night. Do you have adequate security where you are?
 

Jaysen

Banned
I am certainly no victim, but if you don't think that is some vile shit to admit to, then I don't know what to tell you.
Correct, you are not a victim. You just continue to play one. No one with even an ounce of intelligence buys your bullshit though.

”Why oh why are those of us with no regard for the lives and safety of others being so badly mistreated and disrespected?! Woah as us!” Lol
 
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FireFly

Member
Is there a non authoritarian state? China isn't communist, it just has a different style of capitalism. Western scientists would have been more than happy to make Covid 19 by accident. I think it's really just luck or bad operational security that it was China.


Do you think the Chinese government is uniquely evil in some way that most other governments are not?
In a Democracy, the government is held accountable by the opposition party and by the media, so that when fatal mistakes are made, there is accountability. In an authoritarian state, there is no accountability, since mistakes can simply be covered up.

Scientists are neither angels nor demons, but when they operate within a transparent system guided by known and collectively agreed-upon protocols, they can achieve amazing things. If there is an enemy it is the "system" and not the individuals that work within it.
 

ManaByte

Member

Fully vaccinated people who contract COVID-19 and end up in the hospital tend to be those with chronic illnesses and weakened immune systems, which is why the health officials recommend taking the extra step of layering a mask on top of vaccinations.

Meanwhile, Antivaxxers are pulling out knives:
 
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GeorgPrime

Banned
Just got my second vacvine shot on saturday abd it was one of the worst nights ever.

Fever, shovering cold, strong headaches ehen i lie down and all limbs hurting. Still fighting with side effects. Iam just tired as fuck

I even took medicine against fever and pain but the headachws while down didnt go away
 
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Jaysen

Banned



Meanwhile, Antivaxxers are pulling out knives:
Apparently their right to not have to wear a mask is more important than someone else’s right to live. Fucking idiots.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member



The implied threat and favourable responses show a religious zealotry in the parts of the US that makes those warnings regarding terrorist threats not seem unfounded. No high level organized threat, only the desire by some to form one. There could be escalations to random violence before that. The warning is out. Feds are watching and if something happens to a healthcare worker the indications are that the response will be American and the perpetrators labeled as terrorists. Especially if they organize. Doubtful they'll get Guantanamo, but...welcome to America. Fuck around and find out.
Is how it looks from the outside.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
What if some of us believe that the best thing to do is to contract such diseases and for our immune system to fight them naturally? Do I not have freedom to catch Covid 19?
Do I have the freedom to have my children not catch it from you?

that’s very narrow view
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Just got my second vacvine shot on saturday abd it was one of the worst nights ever.

Fever, shovering cold, strong headaches ehen i lie down and all limbs hurting. Still fighting with side effects. Iam just tired as fuck

I even took medicine against fever and pain but the headachws while down didnt go away
Yeah my first shot I was completely fine, second shot was a bitch, low grade fever for like 12 hours straight. Makes you realize how much of being 'sick' is actually your immune system kicking in.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
What if some of us believe that the best thing to do is to contract such diseases and for our immune system to fight them naturally? Do I not have freedom to catch Covid 19?
Current evidence is that immune response from vaccine is superior and risk/benefit of vaccine is vastly superior to actually getting covid. Risks associated with vaccines are extremely rare, whereas just covid mortality is orders of magnitude higher and 10-15% have long term effects that are potentially serious (like heart damage)
 
There is without question an agenda being pushed by the mass media. Its purpose is both alarmism and also steering people towards certain beliefs/practices (namely, vaccination and the merits thereof). Anyone who doesn’t see this is literally blind. Story after story about infants in ICU or dying from COVID, pediatric ICU units filling up, hospitalizations among 30-40 year olds spiking (where is the data supporting all this? Certainly not available in any easily accessible format), endless stories of companies implementing vaccine mandates along with an utter lack of opposing viewpoints - as if there are no cogent philosophical and legal arguments to be made against them. It is a complete and utter joke, nakedly tendentious, and an affront to anyone with a modicum of intelligence and discernment. Its purpose is not to inform or educate, but to herd people to one opinion. It also gives the false impression to those who are opposed to vax mandates that they are in an extreme minority when in fact they are in the majority (50-70+% of people do not support vax mandates, even if they support vaccinations). This, again, is intentional, as people are less likely to “resist” if they feel they hold an extreme minority position. It’s all just terribly transparent. In my entire life I’ve never seen such a blatant, consolidated effort across all media outlets to push one agenda, one message. We are reaping the fruits of both the media consolidation of the 90’s and aughts as well as the lack of education and intellectual sophistication among the general populace which has been festering for decades now. We are living in truly frightening times.

law-of-attraction-brain.gif

I wholeheartedly agree.

herding-cody-harris.gif


In this scenario, we are not the animal wearing the hat. ;)
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
law-of-attraction-brain.gif

I wholeheartedly agree.

herding-cody-harris.gif


In this scenario, we are not the animal wearing the hat. ;)
yeah, galaxy brain is what it's called. could notice pandemics are a collective action problem that are not new if you look at the history of pandemics... or weave a vague conspiratorial narrative
 

FunkMiller

Member
There is without question an agenda being pushed by the mass media. Its purpose is both alarmism and also steering people towards certain beliefs/practices (namely, vaccination and the merits thereof).

You think that's bad. There's an agenda to get people to take painkillers when they have a headache as well. And wear sunblock so they don't get melanoma. And check their bodies for lumps as an early warning sign against other types of cancer. And purchase toothpaste with fluoride in to help keep their teeth healthy. And wear seatbelts in case they get into a car crash. And make sure they have adequate insurance on their house in case it burns down.

No matter where you look in the mainstream media, politics, government organisations, or business, there's a seemingly non-stop attempt to get us all to do things to keep us safe. The agenda never ends... and this vaccine is just the latest in a long line of stuff they're trying to force down our necks, because it might make our lives and other people's lives better. They're trying to tell us what to do all of the time. Pushing these messages constantly down our throats.

The absolute cunts.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Indiana doc's fiery presentation in front of local school board. Timestamped here




Studies referenced
https://hancockcountypatriots.blogspot.com/2021/08/dr-dan-stocks-presentation-to-mt-vernon.html

By the way, this guy seems to be getting used a lot as a reliable source, but is he really?

What are the odds that the lone rebel doctor with contrary opinions from the majority of his peers is going to be the right one? That doesn't mean he's definitely wrong, but right off the bat, his odds aren't good. He also states several wrong things in his presentation. Additionally, he gives anecdotal evidence of 15 patients who recovered. Observational studies are a thing, but you need lots of samples because there is no control group. He had only 15 people. COVID, while dangerous to a large population, is not that deadly to an individual, based on the probability. What are the chances that those 15 people would have recovered without issue normally? If they weren't old or unhealthy, the chances are pretty good.

This longer piece addresses his points more elaborately.


A surprisingly large number of people have sent me a video that is inundated with disinformation about COVID-19 and its reach seems considerable so I have deemed it significant enough to address. In the video, one Dr. Dan Stock from Indiana at a school board meeting opines at length about all the things we’re supposedly doing wrong with COVID-19 (by the way, the FSMB has now stated that spreading misinformation about COVID-19 vaccination may put medical licenses at risk, though state medical boards have final say it seems; rest assured I will be examining the rules in Indiana quite closely). The speech is little more than a verbal gish gallop: a tactic used by science denialists usually over written forums wherein they post a bunch of links that they claim to support their points but in reality most of the citations are unsupportive or even unrelated to their claim- but this serves the appearance of evidence (this is a famous example). He is doing this verbally- he is making a series of incorrect arguments (that are self-contradictory) and essentially seeking to overwhelm opposition with the volume of arguments he makes. The thing is, as I’ll discuss, he discredits himself very early on, so you don’t have to subject yourself to listening to his nonsense because I did it for you.

Next he claims that coronaviruses and all respiratory viruses are spread by aerosol particles which are small enough to go through your mask, which is a misleading in several ways. Aerosols refer specifically to very small droplets which in general can linger in the air for prolonged periods of time (and they are blocked by masks). While there is evidence that during certain medical procedures like intubation, SARS-CoV-2 can become aerosolized, most contact tracing studies do find that prolonged close contact with individuals is needed for transmission to occur (but obviously there are exceptions). There is definitely a role for aerosol transmission in COVID-19 but precisely how much is not well-defined. He then argues that masks don’t work because viruses are small enough to pass through them. The problem with this reasoning is viruses do not travel as individual viral particles- they are inside the aerosols and droplets. That’s what the masks block. The IDSA has graciously compiled the multitudinous, surfeit evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of masking here which anyone is free to peruse at their leisure.

Stock then makes a meaningless and unfalsifiable remark that sounds scary by saying that the vaccines make your immune system become “deranged.” He provides no evidence or reference for this most extraordinary claim even though the burden of proof lies with him for making it. This comment is vague and meaningless and he does not clarify what constitutes immunological derangement. What specific pathologies are the vaccines causing indicative of immunological derangement? We have near real-time safety data on them and the risks (which are themselves exceptionally rare) are: anaphylaxis 2.5-4.7 per million doses, thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) with the JJJ vaccine at 3 per million doses, Guillain-Barre syndrome at 7.8 per million doses of JJJ, and the rare cases of myocarditis whose rate is hard to define generally but goes up to ~7 per 100,000 second doses of the vaccine in younger males and is far lower for everyone else. COVID-19 patients on the other hand may have substantial immunological challenges. They develop functional autoantibodies that worsen disease and people who recover from COVID regularly have new autoimmune diseases, including diabetes. Some evidence demonstrates prolonged disruption of normal peripheral immune system function following COVID-19 in some patients. I discussed the differences in disease-acquired immunity and vaccine-acquired immunity here for those seeking additional details.

At this point, Stock then raises the matter of antibody-dependent enhancement, except he calls it “antibody-mediated viral enhancement.” I wrote a post all about this in December which you can read here and it is only reinforced by the latest data. This is irredeemable and unequivocally disinformation. Firstly, he defines ADE incorrectly by suggesting it is exclusive to vaccines. ADE does not have to be caused by a vaccine to be ADE- in Dengue which is the major infection for which it’s relevant it is almost always because of infection. Secondly he confuses ADE and VAERD (see the ADE post). These are immunologically distinct entities and ADE does not have to be caused by a respiratory infection (Dengue is not respiratory). It also has nothing to do with how pathogenic the virus is; per his claim RSV has low pathogenicity (I wouldn’t agree with that but I digress) but this has also been observed for Ebola which is among the most lethal viruses in existence. If ADE were happening, reinfections would be both common and more severe with COVID-19. It’s the literal exact opposite. We also have data on hundreds of thousands of people at this point who got convalescent plasma and it didn’t make them worse. On top of that animal studies of the vaccines demonstrated protection and not enhanced disease. If the vaccines actually caused ADE it would represent a negative vaccine efficacy/effectiveness. The mRNA vaccines were ~95% efficacious and perform similarly in the real world; JJJ also clearly improves outcomes with about 66% efficacy and very solid protection against severe outcomes. Stop trying to make ADE happen. It’s not happening. By the way- we are at this point only a third through in the video. Take note of how much disinformation has been espoused in a mere 2 minutes.

Stock then asserts very confidently again that patients who recover from COVID-19 have no benefit from vaccination at all. This was explicitly demonstrated to be false in the recent CDC MMWR then which found the exact opposite- a significantly reduced risk of reinfection among those who got 2 doses after recovery by 2.34 times. There is no quantitative data I have seen on the relative burden of “side effects” for recovered patients following vaccination; it is known that the first dose of vaccine after recovery is analogous to people’s second dose if they did not have COVID before but the effect goes away with the second dose in those patients per the most recent Pfizer clinical trial data. I reviewed the benefits of vaccination of the recovered more generally here.



I can honestly say that I don’t think there was any part of the 6 minutes and 30 seconds of that entire video that was completely truthful or accurate which is quite unsettling.
 
I see that the hateful atmosphere of this thread is now at the point where a supposedly professional medical practitioner now feels comfortable enough to openly admit to neglecting patients out of spite and suggest that it's not even an uncommon thing!
They refuse the vaccine and then run to the hospital once they get sick begging for care that is already stretched so thin. It's like refusing not to wear a seat belt and then beg the hospital staff to treat your wounds. Unvaccinated people are filling up the hospitals out of spite and ignorance and expect the same level of care when resources and staff are on thin ice.

Damn, it's like y'all could have done something to prevent this the whole time.
 
They refuse the vaccine and then run to the hospital once they get sick begging for care that is already stretched so thin. It's like refusing not to wear a seat belt and then beg the hospital staff to treat your wounds. Unvaccinated people are filling up the hospitals out of spite and ignorance and expect the same level of care when resources and staff are on thin ice.

Damn, it's like y'all could have done something to prevent this the whole time.
You people are fucking ridiculous, just so you know. It’s called being a fucking professional. I work with them. I am one. The ones who aren’t pure trash don’t treat people like shit based on whether they are vaccinated or not. Anyone who does should be immediately stripped of their license. And anyone making even mild excuses for it is an scumbag. We also don’t treat smokers with lung cancer like anything less than human beings, in case you were wondering.
 
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vpance

Member
I see that the hateful atmosphere of this thread is now at the point where a supposedly professional medical practitioner now feels comfortable enough to openly admit to neglecting patients out of spite and suggest that it's not even an uncommon thing!

Whether done on purpose or not, medical malpractice is like the 3rd leading cause of death in the US, which is kind of crazy.

Nurses and doctors succumb to stress too. It definitely has to impact their performance.
 
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