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[Learn2read]

People also shouldn't forget that if it wasn't for "gypsy culture" we never would have gotten Django Reinhardt.

 

[Dead Man]

Problem is, for many people, Caucasians (or at least the local ethnicity) is "normal." They're just a squatter or a bum, and their homes are just shanty towns. When it's a person of a strange foreign ethnicity, then they're "[ethnicity]s" living in "[ethnicity] camps," even if it's a permanent home. When a "normal" squatter commits a crime, it's just a criminal. When a foreigner commits a crime, it's "typical [ethnic] behavior." This leads to a lot of rumors and falsehoods. An ethnic person is accused of a crime, and the tabloids and newspapers don't say "Man/Woman accused of theft"... it's "[Ethnicity] commits theft."

Exactly.

 

[agrajag]

People also shouldn't forget that if it wasn't for "gypsy culture" we never would have gotten Django Reinhardt.

Gypsy jazz is so good.

 

[Walshicus]

Gypsy jazz is so good.

I call it Gyzz.

 

[agrajag]

I call it Gyzz.

Oh geez.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

So you get banned if you laugh at a joke about female drivers, but what this guy is saying is fine?

Makes sense to me.

Well that's because most of this topic is about confusion over definitions of gypsies, people refusing to acknowledge how "English/French/Spanish" gypsies act (acting criminal capacity to survive whilst refusing government aid) and people not knowing the difference between race and ethnicity.

Also, we have no Romany admins.

 

[besada]

First of all, I don't know how you got the impression that I'm crying..

It must be your constant wail of "You're all being PC!" the traditional whine of the poor oppressed white bigot.

There's no problem with acknowledging that SOME gypsy communities are engaged in widespread crime. In fact, no one here seems to have a problem with that. Its your insistence on using all inclusive language consistently when you're making your points that's led people to treat you like a racist.

Using your example, saying all Georgians, or even just "Georgians" are criminals would be every bit as wrong. You seem to be incapable of perceiving this point, or more likely, are simply a troll intentionally trying to stir up shit, which should be grounds for a ban.

 

[agrajag]

It must be your constant wail of "You're all being PC!" the traditional whine of the poor oppressed white bigot.

There's no problem with acknowledging that SOME gypsy communities are engaged in widespread crime. In fact, no one here seems to have a problem with that. Its your insistence on using all inclusive language consistently when you're making your points that's led people to treat you like a racist.

Using your example, saying all Georgians, or even just "Georgians" are criminals would be every bit as wrong. You seem to be incapable of perceiving this point, or more likely, are simply a troll intentionally trying to stir up shit, which should be grounds for a ban.

Georgians aren't criminals any more than any other enthnicity. Neither are Romas.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Well that's because most of this topic is about confusion over definitions of gypsies, people refusing to acknowledge how "English/French/Spanish" gypsies act (acting criminal capacity to survive whilst refusing government aid) and people not knowing the difference between race and ethnicity.

Also, we have no Romany admins.

Ethnic discrimination and racial discrimination are considered to be the same thing.

 

[besada]

Georgians aren't criminals any more than any other enthnicity. Neither are Romas.

See, that wasn't so hard, was it.

And I gladly acknowledge that some camps of gypsies/travelers/nomads can cause absolutely terrible crime problems, and that in some cases part of their culture is a refusal to assimilate and a belief that they have a right to steal from the Gadjo.

The simple use of the word "some" can have a wonderful effect in making sure a discussion doesn't derail into accusations of racism and sweeping generalizations. I know it's not nearly as effective from a rhetorical viewpoint, but since you're here for discussion and not to pimp an agenda (as you've said) that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Walshicus]

Its your insistence on using all inclusive language consistently when you're making your points that's led people to treat you like a racist.

Doesn't racism usually take place between... you know, different races? Assuming he's Caucasian, how then is anything he says against Gypsies/Pikeys/Roma/Whatever racism?

Spoiler

Also, the only time I've ever been mugged was ten years back, by a pair of Gypsies who set up camp in the woods along my walk to school. Just throwing it out there.

 

[agrajag]

See, that wasn't so hard, was it.

And I gladly acknowledge that some camps of gypsies/travelers/nomads can cause absolutely terrible crime problems, and that in some cases part of their culture is a refusal to assimilate and a belief that they have a right to steal from the Gadjo.

The simple use of the word "some" can have a wonderful effect in making sure a discussion doesn't derail into accusations of racism and sweeping generalizations. I know it's not nearly as effective from a rhetorical viewpoint, but since you're here for discussion and not to pimp an agenda (as you've said) that shouldn't be a problem.

Well, I never recall saying that all gypsies are criminals in this thread, but I did use the word gypsies repeatedly without the qualifier "some." I'm willing to admit that I would be a little wary of being alone in a dark alley with a gypsy or a bum. People don't like to admit that they prejudge anyone, but I think everyone does to some extent.

 

[Dascu]

My 2 cents:

The nomadic lifestyle of Gypsies doesn't encourage adaptation. Their culture doesn't lead to crime, but it can lead to widespread poverty and lack of willingness to integrate. It causes a tight group behaviour within the Gypsy community. This is causing a lot of friction with the non-Gypsy community. Gypsies aren't criminals, but their culture leads to socio-economic marginalization which creates a suitable environment for crime to flourish. Am I saying all Gypsies grow up to be criminals? Most certainly not. Am I saying that growing up in a poor, anti-social community with little chances to find a good job because you're constantly on the move (and because the locals aren't very keen on communicating with you either) can lead to crime? Yes, definitely.

 

[agrajag]

My 2 cents:

The nomadic lifestyle of Gypsies doesn't encourage adaptation. Their culture doesn't lead to crime, but it can lead to widespread poverty and lack of willingness to integrate. It causes a tight group behaviour within the Gypsy community. This is causing a lot of friction with the non-Gypsy community. Gypsies aren't criminals, but their culture leads to socio-economic marginalization which creates a suitable environment for crime to flourish. Am I saying all Gypsies grow up to be criminals? Most certainly not. Am I saying that growing up in a poor, anti-social community with little chances to find a good job because you're constantly on the move (and because the locals aren't very keen on communicating with you either) can lead to crime? Yes, definitely.

Brilliant.

 

[Gaborn]

Well, I never recall saying that all gypsies are criminals in this thread, but I did use the word gypsies repeatedly without the qualifier "some." I'm willing to admit that I would be a little wary of being alone in a dark alley with a gypsy or a bum. People don't like to admit that they prejudge anyone, but I think everyone does to some extent.

The little kids are the worst, they're taught to pickpocket from a very young age!

Where did you imply that some of the little kids aren't actually, you know, criminals?

 

[besada]

Doesn't racism usually take place between... you know, different races? Assuming he's Caucasian, how then is anything he says against Gypsies/Pikeys/Roma/Whatever racism?

Racism as a word, just like gypsy, has accrued wider meanings than its original etymology. Gypsy originally meant only Romani people, but has grown to include any group of nomads who live a similar lifestyle to the stereotypical Romani.

In the same way, racism has expanded to include ethnic groups of the same race. You don't get to complain about linguistic creep on the one hand while defending it on the other.

The Roma themselves, by the way, are an ethnic group originally from India,so the question of race/ethnicity is largely a semantic one.

The UN defines racial discrimination to include discrimination based on race, color, ethnicity, heritage, or national origin, which makes the modern use of the word considerably moreinclusive than just "other races".

Edit: I've only ever been mugged by white people. Just throwing that out there.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Doesn't racism usually take place between... you know, different races? Assuming he's Caucasian, how then is anything he says against Gypsies/Pikeys/Roma/Whatever racism?

...you're kidding, right?

 

[agrajag]

Where did you imply that some of the little kids aren't actually, you know, criminals?

That was a joke, man!:lol Not to say I haven't encountered child pickpockets. But come on, simple common sense would even dictate that not every child gypsy could possibly be a criminal. I'm not stupid.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Brilliant.

Cool, now tell all the people in this thread who hate gypsies and think the gypsies are all leeches and scum who act in a stereotypical manner. Because that's what we're arguing against here. Nobody's said that a poor itinerant lifestyle didn't encourage crime, but that stereotyping a very secluded and tight-knit community based on experiences with the more visible members is, in fact, discriminatory, especially when that community is an entire ethnicity.

 

[Gaborn]

That was a joke, man!:lol Not to say I haven't encountered child pickpockets. But come on, simple common sense would even dictate that not every child gypsy could possibly be a criminal. I'm not stupid.

Considering some of the more ridiculous commentary in this thread do you really think it's easy to distinguish?

 

[agrajag]

Considering some of the more ridiculous commentary in this thread do you really think it's easy to distinguish?

No, but I really thought that my exclamation point and the fact that you quoted my avatar got the jokiness across.. I guess not, I'm never blunt enough on the internets.

 

[kikonawa]

I know One thing .Gypsy woman do F*ck like pornstars... :drool

 

[Ikael]

Let's put it in this way: gipsies are an extremely hard minority to be digested by the "melting pot" simply because of their nomadic lifestyle and because their society only pledges loyalty to clan leaders, not to goverments or any other kind of authority.

These ads are barbaric, but fact is that the traditional methods of integrating minorities are failing flat on their face when it comes to gipsies, and that half the bad blood they get is because of their conscious explotation of the social safety nets. The goverment should either stop their welfare aid when it comes to gipsies or... or hell, I dont know what the crap they could do. Exile them?

 

[Walshicus]

...you're kidding, right?

Actually I wasn't, but on reading I'm probably wrong. I don't associate Roma or other nations in Europe as races, so claiming racism from one European nationality against another seemed stupid. That said, there're other uses of the term "race" that would be pretty much the same as "nation", so I was wrong to make the original point.

 

[agrajag]

Let's put it in this way: gipsies are an extremely hard minority to be digested by the "melting pot" simply because of their nomadic lifestyle and because their society only pledges loyalty to clan leaders, not to goverments or any other kind of authority.

These ads are barbaric, but fact is that the traditional methods of integrating minorities are failing flat on their face when it comes to gipsies, and that half the bad blood they get is because of their conscious explotation of the social safety nets. The goverment should either stop their welfare aid when it comes to gipsies or... or hell, I dont know what the crap they could do. Exile them?

Final Solution.

 

[Learn2read]

My 2 cents:

The nomadic lifestyle of Gypsies doesn't encourage adaptation. Their culture doesn't lead to crime, but it can lead to widespread poverty and lack of willingness to integrate. It causes a tight group behaviour within the Gypsy community. This is causing a lot of friction with the non-Gypsy community. Gypsies aren't criminals, but their culture leads to socio-economic marginalization which creates a suitable environment for crime to flourish. Am I saying all Gypsies grow up to be criminals? Most certainly not. Am I saying that growing up in a poor, anti-social community with little chances to find a good job because you're constantly on the move (and because the locals aren't very keen on communicating with you either) can lead to crime? Yes, definitely.

I would disagree slightly that the nomadic lifestyle doesn't lead to crime. Jews (perhaps the closest parallel to gypsies in Europe) remained non-integrated for a couple of thousand years (whether it was their choice or not) but still put down roots in an area which gave kind of stake in it and encouraged certain social contracts that can easily be ignored if you're just passing through and can leave some disharmony in your wake without repercussions.

 

[Jado]

Thank you. In my town there was a problem with a Caucasian family, they were terrorising the street they were squatting in. When the police evicted them, they just moved to another street and did the same thing. Fucking Caucasians. Unless you have experienced it, you don't know.

See how that works? When you focus on a group that someone belongs to, you can label whole groups as criminals. For the record, I am Caucasian (mostly). Also, this is not supposed to be a personal attack, just trying it point out the uselessness of labelling all of a social or ethnic group as criminals.

That was a terrible example. If this were a thread about a criminal minority that exists within an ethnic group and people were shouting for the end of the ethnic group itself, you would be on to something. Gypsy refers to a criminal lifestyle. A more accurate comparison would be to want to be rid of the italian mob, Somali pirates, or the Mexican/Ecuadorian gangs popping up in many US cities and towns. If someone of power stated that we need to get rid of a specific black gang plaguing a neighborhood, Al Sharpton would go nuts at some perceived racism or lack of PCness. In the case of Gypsies, there isn't even an ethnicity or nationality for an Al Sharpton to cry racism.

 

[blazinglord]

 

[besada]

Let's put it in this way: gipsies are an extremely hard minority to be digested by the "melting pot" simply because of their nomadic lifestyle and because their society only pledges loyalty to clan leaders, not to goverments or any other kind of authority.

The interesting thing is that the U.S. has had multiple waves of Romani immigrants who did eventually assimilate. So maybe the question is why can't the Romani assimilate in Europe? And that opens up a larger question of ethnic assimilation in Europe, which is a problem on multiple fronts.

 

[Dead Man]

That was a terrible example. If this were a thread about a criminal minority that exists within an ethnic group and people were shouting for the end of the ethnic group itself, you would be on to something. Gypsy refers to a criminal lifestyle. A more accurate comparison would be to want to be rid of the italian mob, Somali pirates, or the Mexican/Ecuadorian gangs popping up in many US cities and towns. If someone of power stated that we need to get rid of a specific black gang plaguing a neighborhood, Al Sharpton would go nuts at some perceived racism or lack of PCness. In the case of Gypsies, there isn't even an ethnicity or nationality for an Al Sharpton to cry racism.

Point.









Your head.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Let's put it in this way: gipsies are an extremely hard minority to be digested by the "melting pot" simply because of their nomadic lifestyle and because their society only pledges loyalty to clan leaders, not to goverments or any other kind of authority.

These ads are barbaric, but fact is that the traditional methods of integrating minorities are failing flat on their face when it comes to gipsies, and that half the bad blood they get is because of their conscious explotation of the social safety nets. The goverment should either stop their welfare aid when it comes to gipsies or... or hell, I dont know what the crap they could do. Exile them?

What do you think governments have been doing for hundreds of years? Romanies have been exiled, criminalized, had their children taken away by the state, deported, forced into work camps, and even forcibly sterilized.

 

[Des0lar]

This thread is a fucking trainwreck.

 

[bishoptl]

So I finally stick my head in here to see what all the fuss is about...nice going, fellas.

Shame on me for not getting in here sooner, and shame on a good chunk of you for some of the sentiment expressed in here. Holy shit.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

So I finally stick my head in here to see what all the fuss is about...nice going, fellas.

Shame on me for not getting in here sooner, and shame on a good chunk of you for some of the sentiment expressed in here. Holy shit.

Oh thank God.

 

[smurfx]

So I finally stick my head in here to see what all the fuss is about...nice going, fellas.

Shame on me for not getting in here sooner, and shame on a good chunk of you for some of the sentiment expressed in here. Holy shit.

is a huge ban hammer coming down?

 

[bishoptl]

After the Det/Chi game.

 

[Blackace]

OMG... It's going to take 3 or 4 or us to get this messed cleaned up