Gordon Shumway
Banned
Sanjuro wearing perms now?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Daily Show host Trevor Noah says people see Antifa as "Vegan Isis"
- Thread starter kitsunelaine
- Start date
Sanjuro wearing perms now?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Not sure I have a pilot's license.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
I'd feel safe enough. You're great..don't let anyone tell you otherwise..😉
theCalamity
Member
Just found out that Trevor Noah is alright with miners on strike being shot by police. He claims that they charged at police with weapons, but footage shows that they were just trying to leave and police boxed them in.https://twitter.com/shujaxhaider/status/903615982891098112
If you cause violence or destruction intentionally with the cause to hurt people outside of war time for political gain, your not sending a message that will solve anything for anyone.
Don't bring up "not being a centrist' as an excuse to be a problem for others. If you want to inconvenience people, inconvenience them, if you want to fight back against oppression, show up and let people know of your support just like many in charlottesville did. But when you resort to violence, you hurt the cause of the people who peacefully protest for the goal you claim to support.
I am aware of the police state, that's why its even more important to not give them reason to classify you as a criminal and delegitimize any semblance of the point your trying to make.
Don't bring up "not being a centrist' as an excuse to be a problem for others. If you want to inconvenience people, inconvenience them, if you want to fight back against oppression, show up and let people know of your support just like many in charlottesville did. But when you resort to violence, you hurt the cause of the people who peacefully protest for the goal you claim to support.
I am aware of the police state, that's why its even more important to not give them reason to classify you as a criminal and delegitimize any semblance of the point your trying to make.
i feel like we've been over this a million times but
so the whole "you're not convincing the general public with these shenanigans" thing is kind of beside the point.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Vote..
https://twitter.com/shujaxhaider/status/903615982891098112
And he gets to project these views to an audience of tens of millions
If they don't have any point besides "intimidating fascists" to make a point about how they are somehow better because they are 'not them", they are hurting leftist and progressive causes that actually effect the rise of fascism. They make it stronger by making everyone actually trying to fight legitimately look like a hooligan who has no objective worth considering besides causing destruction.
The right wing will always win in a war that involves violence, because white nationalists, nazis, anti government right wing militias base their views in violence and hate inherently because they have no legitimate arguments worth fighting over. Nobody wins by copying their behavior to silence or intimidate them.
yes, you should vote, peacefully protest, call your congress people, draft politicans. create an effective message worth having. BLM for example has a clear message, the general conglomerate shared by all the different factions also have policy goals they even list online that they want considered and they are always largely peaceful to state their cause.
if antifa's goal is to cause a scene or hurt others to make those people in it feel good about fighting the right wing, they are not actually fighting the right wing. i feel like its a point that's missed.
They're not doing that either
If people really think that everyone to the right of the most extreme people of antifa on the political spectrum is considered too moderate and is enabling nazis, I have to question your judgment. What about all the regular counter protestors who were also representing other causes? What if they didnt want anyone to be smashing windows because it messes with their cause? Are BLM enabling nazis too?
I have to question why you would feel the need to attack your own kind, a likely much more activist and representative of the general populous liberal such as Trevor Noah, in order to stand up for this unorganized fringe from a comedic critique on comedy central, as if they are actually a group that represents the democratic platform.
Is it the power of punching Nazis? If so, do we love punching nazis so much that we would never question anyone else who loves punching nazis and even give them a hall pass to associate with our entire politics? Do you also really believe that these people are defeating nazism by punching people in the face? That one day it could actually all be behind us, and it was the guys punching the nazis at rallies who saved us from them, and not these useless "moderates" who just counterprotest and dont smash shit up? Even though the nazis are going out and enticing these antifa to start shit, and their entire political strategy hinges on baiting the left into violence, somehow the nazis will eventually be afraid and give up? Would you not even acknowledge the bare minimum potential detrimental effect it could have on the liberal cause? Especially considering they are literally being used as tools by the alt right and neo nazis to garner sympathy and recruit young people? Maybe at least consider the possibility...?
The ones who scoff at this idea of violence mattering, do we live in the same world? The one with Mahatma Gandhi, who freed his country through a peaceful revolution, not because it was a hip thing to do, but because he understood the power of political high ground? The world where governments pay scabs to go into peaceful protests and start violence in order to discredit them, where republicans pay people to vandalize property at inaugurations so that they can blame it on liberals, where russians finance opposing civil feuds to stir american social political fervor?
I also have to question what planet some of you lived on to even compare antifa to the likes of MLK Jr. or Malcolm X, who dedicated their lives to galvanizing communities and strategically forcing change, to a disorganized fringe group that co opted their identity from an anarchist group. And their whole thing is punching people in the face. Come the fuck on with this bullshit. Moderates can at times be an enemy of progress, but it is for the very reason that they hold so much power in this country. Most of politics is all about trying to win over the opinions moderates.
I have to question why you would feel the need to attack your own kind, a likely much more activist and representative of the general populous liberal such as Trevor Noah, in order to stand up for this unorganized fringe from a comedic critique on comedy central, as if they are actually a group that represents the democratic platform.
Is it the power of punching Nazis? If so, do we love punching nazis so much that we would never question anyone else who loves punching nazis and even give them a hall pass to associate with our entire politics? Do you also really believe that these people are defeating nazism by punching people in the face? That one day it could actually all be behind us, and it was the guys punching the nazis at rallies who saved us from them, and not these useless "moderates" who just counterprotest and dont smash shit up? Even though the nazis are going out and enticing these antifa to start shit, and their entire political strategy hinges on baiting the left into violence, somehow the nazis will eventually be afraid and give up? Would you not even acknowledge the bare minimum potential detrimental effect it could have on the liberal cause? Especially considering they are literally being used as tools by the alt right and neo nazis to garner sympathy and recruit young people? Maybe at least consider the possibility...?
The ones who scoff at this idea of violence mattering, do we live in the same world? The one with Mahatma Gandhi, who freed his country through a peaceful revolution, not because it was a hip thing to do, but because he understood the power of political high ground? The world where governments pay scabs to go into peaceful protests and start violence in order to discredit them, where republicans pay people to vandalize property at inaugurations so that they can blame it on liberals, where russians finance opposing civil feuds to stir american social political fervor?
I also have to question what planet some of you lived on to even compare antifa to the likes of MLK Jr. or Malcolm X, who dedicated their lives to galvanizing communities and strategically forcing change, to a disorganized fringe group that co opted their identity from an anarchist group. And their whole thing is punching people in the face. Come the fuck on with this bullshit. Moderates can at times be an enemy of progress, but it is for the very reason that they hold so much power in this country. Most of politics is all about trying to win over the opinions moderates.
Based on the arguments i've heard in defense of people doing violent acts, it sounds like it. Anything less than violence to intimidate is centrism according to some people. I don't get what's so hard to understand about the fact that 'countering fascists' actually needs something of a core message and a core counter philosophy to work, not some hopped up sense of getting into physical fights with people on the alt right. That doesn't actually stop the rise of fascism.
this is basically his stance i would assume. I have a similar stance. Violence allows them to turn the narrative against us. However while i dont like violence from antifa in no way does it put them in the same rung as violent nazis. Those are not morally equivalent. However as I said violence doesnt help us.
That's you conflating two different things though.
I don't know who you think is saying that "anything less than violence" is somehow derided as centrism but I haven't seen it in this thread. I know people are very, very touchy about being called centrists these days but I don't think anyone is actually saying that if you aren't punching Nazis you're some kind of collaborator.
Direct action is important. Demonstrating is important. Just because you think that punching Nazis is a good thing doesn't also mean that you think any other form of political expression is somehow selling out. Antifa is a tactic. People with all sorts of political ideologies support / comprise antifa.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is that you don't actually "need" some kind of core message. This isn't some marketplace of ideas thing. Not every form of political action has to be some fucking PR campaign where varying interests compete for the approval of people on the internet. They do not give a shit that you're expressing your displeasure on the internet or that you come away with an opinion along the lines of "well I'm certainly not convinced by this behaviour."
The point is fucking with Nazis. Getting them fired, getting them named and shamed, and punching them in their faces. I would argue that this does in fact counter the rise of fascism much better than your usual liberal debate club nerd plan of attack.
In fact I'd say that the people getting "hopped up" and doing unproductive shit just to make themselves feel good are the libs in the media and online who feel the need to tut-tut antifa while posting epic Drumpf owns. I mean, the entire might of the American nonviolent liberal establishment lost the country to a literal fascist. No number of #theresistance tweets or SNL monologues or neogaf threads could have prevented that.
Fascism is entirely about violence. It is an ideology wrought from violence. Fascists will gladly "debate" with liberals in bad faith, frustrate and exhaust them, and then when their movement has grown enough they will start killing people. That's the fucking playbook, and with a white nationalist in the nation's highest office the game is going pretty much according to plan.
So Trevor Noah can say whatever the fuck he wants and the liberal internet can applaud him for his brave nonviolent stance and while 4chan and the_donald are laughing at them for taking the bait, antifa and other elements of the 'alt-left' are actually addressing the issue on the level it's operating on.
Just responding to a few things because I see where youre coming from with the rest. There have been posts in this thread conflating Trevor Noah making jokes about antifa to being a moderate on the sidelines of historical issues, non-support of antifa to enabling nazis, and so on and so forth. Maybe no one has literally said if you arent punching nazis youre a collaborator but there are certainly those who say that to even spend any time discussing or making jokes about this element of antifa is akin to saying the two sides are the same, or that its whataboutism, even though the topic is antifa so in reality talking about the nazis happens to be whataboutism. Nazis are terrorists, worse even. That doesnt mean we cant hold any view of this group, which doesnt even necessarily represent us politically.
But antifa arent taking the bait when they show up to fight guys that are already macing themselves ? Also why is antifa co-opting their name from an anarchist terrorist group? Shouldnt they change it to Punchnaz or something to differentiate it in the USA since antifa also happens to be synonymous with this terror organization in other countries that also happen to smash private property? It probably doesnt help with the whole "you cant help but have some smashed windows" argument. I honestly dont understand this. Punchnaz is a cool name, and then the whole family can join the fun.
"Punchnaz"
Punch a Nazi and carry on. ®
This is a great response, thank you for that, i agree with just about everything you have said here. On the other hand, i have heard plenty of people in debates i've had argue with the notion that political action that is NOT anarchist in nature is inherently non committal because the right wing fights on the level of violence inherently, and meeting them on the same level is most important thing. i've actually heard that more than once, so its not just me making it up. i'm addressing that viewpoint with my responses here.
This i emphatically disagree with, and i don't think belittling those who disagree as internet dwellers is really worth anything either.
The fact of the matter is, a lot of us other leftists are not specifically concerned with antifa or what they do or do not want in their actions that they perpetrate.
Only that in specifically causing physical violence and militia tactics, they are harming the people who fight for a leftist agenda and a leftist consensus in the wider mainstream sphere that is everything those in antifa do not subscribe to.
Killing fascism means getting more people on the side against facism than the other side, and causing them to be a minority of thought.
If you have no real point to your actions and advocate your opposition merely on violence and physical terms, then that just alienates a lot of people who would otherwise support you, and bolster your opposition. Generally speaking its a war you don't win. And if the intent is not to win anything, the action itself is meaningless. to the rest of us who actually want to accomplish real goals.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Nah, homie..ain't interested.
Renegade Frost
Banned
So the Nazi's won WW2 huh?
Violence is how ideas stick dude.
that's how it works.
Or do you think Democracy suddenly popped up everywhere out of the good hearts of the people?
NO its here because America destabalized every country that wasnt a democracy and we had 7 or 8 "conflicts" since the late 50's to ensure that's the case
nevermind the fact that the concept of private ownership of property is a joke!
shawnbuddy
Member
Here's what Noam Chomsky said about Antifa, hope this hasn't already been posted.
He's right about who is most brutal, at least.
He's right about who is most brutal, at least.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Here's what Noam Chomsky said about Antifa, hope this hasn't already been posted.
He's right about who is most brutal, at least.
Several times, actually. The posters who don't actually care about white supremacy keep trotting it out like it's supposed to shut us up because, as one of them put it, "the left's liberal god has spoken."
I'm going to stop trying to convince people that white supremacy should be fought tooth and nail because I've had it shown to me that the majority of Americans don't care.
It's not that they agree with it or actively support it, they just don't care. Hell, now we have posters who aren't even in America or American wagging their fingers at us for daring to fight white supremacy head on.
It seems like a lot of people prefer America as a white supremacist nation as long as it's stable and doesn't have any adverse effects on them or their nation, so it's going to be interesting to see how things play out.
shawnbuddy
Member
I get that, but does Antifa violence do anything, on the balance, to stop white supremacy? Because it doesn't really come from these Nazis, it comes from the governmental, corporate and other power structures that Chomsky argues this is a "gift" for. The Republican Senator from Bumblefuck Idaho will do more for white supremacy than Richard Spencer will and now he's got "violent Antifa" in his racist toolbelt. But to be fair I guess you have to fight both.
Sorry that this has already been posted.
Similar threads
- Locked