zephervack
Member
Look at the GIFs, a mod wont add the stone polygons to the border of the door, or the cobwebs in the staircase.
The lightning might come from SweetFX but probably not in the same form.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade
- Thread starter Moral Panic
- Start date
Look at the GIFs, a mod wont add the stone polygons to the border of the door, or the cobwebs in the staircase.
The lightning might come from SweetFX but probably not in the same form.
Confidence Man
Member
The demo gif looks weird to me. The torch light is sort of desaturated and blown out and doesn't cast any shadow. Also slapping speculars on the walls doesn't really make them better looking. Not that the retail version looks any better. I think they're both pretty lousy looking for different reasons.
It has the downgraded textures and polys, but the pitch darkness has not been removed.
This is like literally watching a step-by-step downgrade.
DEMO
RETAIL
What a huge shame, two different games.
I don't think the Pc-version will have the superior lighting system. Though hopefully, considering how late these changes appear to have been made then perhaps it can be modded back in.
zephervack
Member
Patrick's response.
Anyone make comparison gif between retail and demo of the Mirror Knight portion?
What a shitty response, so its ok because it was a demo meant to impress, retail can look like shit because its not the demo, what?
yeah this is really weird thing to say and I just hope it's not because he like the series or something.
this is pure false advertising and will be sad if journalists give it a free pass and lame excuses like that just because they like the series.
It also completely ignores the issue of the torch/darkness gameplay mechanic. ugh.
I linked him to the Mirror Knight comparison. Need a gif comparison of retail/demo walking up to mirror knight battle and the actual fight.
If you guys want to chime in on the conversation with some more information, gifs, or just retweet to get his attention https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443048074034683905
dynamitejim
Member
DEMO
RETAIL
What's strange is that the demo version doesn't have the character cast a huge shadow on the wall while standing next to the flame while retail version does...
What's going on here?
I don't understand why any time something looks different from a prerelease version it's automatically a "downgrade". That area looks very, very different. The doorway went from being stone to wood. An actual door was added. The staircase went from wood to stone. The fire went from not casting a shadow on the player to casting a shadow. The textures are completely different in many cases. Perhaps they just wanted to redesign it for some non-technical reason?
I mean is the contention that last gen consoles can't handle simple specular/normal mapping and a simple DOF effect? Because we know that's not the case. I'm starting to see why devs like Sucker Punch are keeping their games heavily under wraps until close to release.
Polioliolio
Member
Yeah. Without having played the game yet, wasn't the torch in the darkness thing supposed to be a new facet to gameplay?
Why would you ever light a torch down there anymore when you can see just fine?
I want an official response, because what they showed is completely different to what we evidently got in the final product.
Garcia
Member
That warmed my heart.
jim2point0
Banned
Pretty much this. I doubt I'm alone in thinking the lighting in the top GIF there looks gorgeous, where as it's completely flat and dull in the bottom. Huge difference to me, and not a very attractive one.
I HOPE it's for technical reasons and it remains like the top GIF for PC. Otherwise... fuck
It looks like bloom on full blast. The retail version is not as dark (in that area), but I like the softer, orange flame glow it has going on.
XANDER CAGE
Member
The issue isn't even that it looks bad - Souls isn't a graphical showcase. This change fundamentally breaks a core mechanic of the game that has been touted since day one. Torches are virtually pointless in this release.
SlasherJPC
Banned
I just tweeted the Namco community manager and see if he can get some answers from FROM or maybe give us some insight.
What? No they aren't.
Link for retweet https://twitter.com/slasherjpc/status/443058272631668737
Thanks Slash
Are we looking at the same footage? Why would you need a torch in the retail version, you can see to the end of the hallway.
Probably done intentionally, you can see the frame rate tank in the retail version when he is casting dynamic shadows.
Garcia
Member
I remember reading your other posts in the OT mentioning that you haven't even used a single torch since they're pretty much useless now. Is this still happening as you keep playing?
EvilKatarn
Member
Patrick's response.
Anyone make comparison gif between retail and demo of the Mirror Knight portion?
Haha, Jimquisition's episode that released just now talks exactly about why "it happens all the time" isn't a valid rebuttal. Expected better from Patrick, leaving disappointed as always.
It's amazing how 'professional video game people' are allowed to not give a shit about the technical aspects of the field they write about for a living.
Stone Ocean
Member
I often forget torches are even in the game lol
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
I love LaMulana, it was just an example to list a "2D Dark Souls-like"
Those games have nothing alike.
I have the game. I'm not speaking about this hallway in particular, but I'll say that torches are not useless in the game.
Yep. It's a shame really.
Another theory on this: I remember that lots of people complained about the darkness in the network test and about how they found the torch mechanic annoying. Could that be reason for why From made these changes? It'd drive me crazy to think that From listened to these people and that there was no technical limitations that prompted these lighting changes. After all, the network test did have that more intense, complex lighting and that was on PS3.
This guy, for example.
You are the first person with gameplay impressions to say that, probably take you as an outlier.
Why would From start accounting for the lowest common denominator, they haven't in the past.
Might need some editing and restructuring, I lost your point in the middle.
There's some really dark areas and some enemies that cower away when you have the torch, which is helpful. Torches aren't a game changer by any means but I think they're working as intended.
XANDER CAGE
Member
In terms of what they were originally for? Yes they are. They're still needed for a few things but for moment-by-moment gameplay they're not necessary. I'm 20+ hours in and I have nearly 40 minutes of torch time stocked up.
I have never needed to use a torch or a sconce to see.
Well, it also fucks over people with certain playstyles, like 2 handed weapon users. Since FROM supposedly has worked on making every build viable, this would go straight against it. And if the torch was necessary in a lot of places, well...
Maybe they perceived these voices as being the majority of players.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
I have like, seen nothing of the game apart from some gifs in some threads. Maybe the mechanic was just plain annoying since you didn't need to carry a torch in DS1 unless you were deep in the tombs.
Many games have those things...One is a puzzle heavy game with platforming and simple combat and the other is an action rpg with deep combat mechanics and stats distribution classes.
And La-Mulana is older than DS.
Well, one-handed builds lose their shield so two-handed builds would have to have a disadvantage as well. Maybe make the attack slower and/or weaker when you have to go one-handed with a big weapon. I don't see why it couldn't have worked like that.
...especially since they promintently advertised this feature since the first reveal footage.
Even if the series was retro 2D before, still fooling people and giving journalists a better looking build to play and write about and hype to gamers all over the world then changing the game completely before release is wrong and a complete dishonesty from From.
They should've at least came and said to all journalists and sites "look guys the game wont be like the earlier version, we are sorry we had some changes" so these journalists and sites can tell their readers that the earlier articles and videos does not represent the final version at all.
I personally enjoy when games force you to, temporarily, switch up your playstyle. Keeps gameplay fresh.
I'm playing through Oracle of Ages right now and you come to an island at one point, where they take away all your gear.
My first thought was this was a contrived mechanic, but then I actually started playing the section. Forced you to think differently when you lost all of your items you had spent the past 10 hours acquiring and using.
This is similar, force you to think on your feet in order to get various sconces lit throughout that section of the game.
Let alone, those graphical features are now missing in other portions of the game that had been demoed previously.
I mean, maybe he wasn't saying it was ok, just explaining what probably happened.
I didn't get the impression he was defending them.
they had allready with dark souls a little bit and it was obvious that they will keep doing it for part 2 to get mor players.
Hi-Scores_
Neo Member
Just hope the game looks as good as the previous ones, could care less about pixels and poly counts. Art direction and atmosphere back in Demon's Souls is still top notch imo. Getting caught up in the tech minutia is a forest for the trees situation when it comes to this series imo.
Also blowing this up into a conspiracy is silly, remember games go through many changes during development. I personally felt the darkness in the beta caverns limited sight too much, and am glad for the change gameplay wise. If you cancel your preorder because the deep black shadows in the e3 demo were what sold you on the series.. well that's an odd selling point and wait for pc I suppose
Also blowing this up into a conspiracy is silly, remember games go through many changes during development. I personally felt the darkness in the beta caverns limited sight too much, and am glad for the change gameplay wise. If you cancel your preorder because the deep black shadows in the e3 demo were what sold you on the series.. well that's an odd selling point and wait for pc I suppose
They're not absolutely necessary but I wouldn't call them useless. I didn't really expect them to play a big part in moment to moment gameplay except for perhaps in an area like Tomb of the Giants though.
Orthogonal
Member
I think I know what he is inferring, and he's alluding to torches having another gameplay mechanic than just illuminating the dark.
dynamitejim
Member
A lot of people complained about the game being too dark in the beta. Even many of the hardcore Souls fans seemed to think it was more of an annoyance than a compelling game play mechanic.
Pretty much this. I doubt I'm alone in thinking the lighting in the top GIF there looks gorgeous, where as it's completely flat and dull in the bottom. Huge difference to me, and not a very attractive one.
I HOPE it's for technical reasons and it remains like the top GIF for PC. Otherwise... fuck
I think the lighting in the above looks blown out with crushed blacks.
I don't see an issue with the wall being simple/having less geometry. It doesn't look bad, just simple could very well be an art decision. Maybe the protruding stones didn't fit with the aesthetic of the level. Both looks very different in mood/style, not necessarily worse or better IMO.
I'll have to play it myself before I can pass any judgement but I feel a lot of people ignorantly take anything with fat contrast to look better(when it actually ruins the image).
This is exactly how I feel. The atmosphere feels different - like they changed their mind on how they wanted this area to look from a creative standpoint. From stony and slimy to wooden (with a door) and roughly textured with the light carrying completely differently. (There have also been enemy placements modified since the demo which were likely balance and lore decisions.
Specifically, the little dwarf guy from the concept art who throws the big deflectable axes.
Also, the room at the end of the staircase is still pretty damn dark. It also features a standing torch that you can light to see the area in more detail should you choose to. The argument that they have tossed the lighting gameplay mechanic is complete nonsense. There is difference between having your vision obscured and being completely blind. I would rather not play in Tomb of the Giants the entire game. I'd like to be able to see a shadow/object moving in the distance and not just a pitch black wall 4 feet in front of me.
All of the exaggeration wouldn't even exist had we not seen that initial demonstration clip. This is still a great looking game with some really nice visuals. It's definitely different than the initial demo, but it is FAR from a bad looking game.
Polioliolio
Member
Felt this too... Once they realized their niche product was appealing to a larger audience than expected, the greed apparently set in. Namco Bandai takes the lead as publisher, and something as corny as a numbered sequel is announced. Then all that nonsense about trying to reach the skyrim demographic, yadda yadda...
The review embargo and the blatant false advertising (except a handful of poor looking screenshots) put the icing on the cake.
This is an old story, and things never change. It's the story of franchises, maximum appeal, and the love for money.
Sign me up for whatever the Dark Souls director is working on..
Oh sheiit.. What if Dark Souls 2 is to Dark Souls, as Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3 is to 2.. A teams and B teams simultaneously working on separate projects.
.. Well whatever, it's all a bunch of shitty sequel crap and it only gets worse as a franchise (god damn I hate that word) develops.
I can totally see that, but that doesn't explain the Mirror Knight boss fight. I'm more inclined to believe it was just a downgrade that ended up working in favor of those who didn't like the torch mechanics.
This is not the point of the thread tho. and it's not just "deep shadow". look at eariler screenshots and posts in this thread.
we have an awful false advertising going on (think something like Aliens: Colonial Marines) when what the dev showed to journalists and got hyped for months with videos and screenshots is different than the final game, developers changing game before release.
Even the art direction and atmosphere you are talking about got a big hit from this downgrade, read the eariler post to see how the atmosphere in location is now flat and soulless because of the removal of dynamic lighting. even their new gameplay mechanics got hit from this.
It doesn't go against it because From seemed to have thought this through. You would have the option of rolling away from the enemies and lighting a torch placed in the level, or breaking windows to let light into the room, from which it would stay permanently lit. The idea would be that you'd be forced to decide whether it was worth the risk of exposing yourself as you went about changing lighting.
And were there other means to light the room, like spells, consumable items, etc?
Yeah, it's not just the lighting, the geometry has been gutted! That's certainly not making it back in!
Even if by some miracle the lighting goes back on the PC version (don't count on it), the geometry will still have been removed due to console limitations! /'price is right' lose track