*eats crow* will eat it gladly since I probably learned something
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Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade
- Thread starter Moral Panic
- Start date
*eats crow* will eat it gladly since I probably learned something
Abdul Hafeez
Member
This always seemed weird to me...they were using PhyreEngine before (for both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls), which is a Sony Europe-developed engine with a lot of PS3-specific optimization. Dark Souls launched in October 2011, and developing a new engine AND a game using that engine within 28 months seems a little crazy for From Software. Especially when they're basically starting from scratch and supporting 3 platforms (PC, PS3, 360) essentially simultaneously.
Yeah, it is pretty strange.
I would really like to see a technical postmortem on Dark Souls 2.
The difference is truly shocking and I'm unsure what to make of it all yet, but I'm reserving judgement.
Until then, we should consider the following: what if the PC version doesn't more closely resemble prerelease footage? Dark Souls
tD for PC didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence, and this lighting downgrade doesn't either. I hope those that are holding out for the PC version check their expectations.
Until then, we should consider the following: what if the PC version doesn't more closely resemble prerelease footage? Dark Souls
tD for PC didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence, and this lighting downgrade doesn't either. I hope those that are holding out for the PC version check their expectations.This is all quite baffling. Especially given how excited they were about the new engine and claiming it would raise the bar for the series.
Just started my playthrough and am a little shocked at the difference in quality even compared to Demon's. It really delivers a gut punch to the atmosphere. Something the other games were dripping with. Everything else is on a level worthy of the series but man, the lighting is just abysmal is most areas.
Just started my playthrough and am a little shocked at the difference in quality even compared to Demon's. It really delivers a gut punch to the atmosphere. Something the other games were dripping with. Everything else is on a level worthy of the series but man, the lighting is just abysmal is most areas.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Without commenting on the changes, for the people that DEMAND ANSWERS what kind of comment would you like from FROM or Bamco?
I wrote this in the Steam topic just now, something along these lines:
I wrote this in the Steam topic just now, something along these lines:
PetriP-TNT said:
Abdul Hafeez
Member
They were probably making the engine on high-end workstations and just forgot they would have to optimize for PS3/360. Or perhaps said fuck it? Most developers seem to be pretty much exhausted by the PS3/360 since 2011.
TheCongressman1
Member
I'd like to know why apparently they didn't know the game ran like shit until several months before release, and why we kept seeing previews up until release that were not at all indicative of the retail game.
Why they downgraded the game, when they did (before or after beta), why did they keep showing the superior build on PS3 literally just 1-2 months ago. And for PC people, if the game is getting "fixed" (also if a patch is possible for console versions).
Sanctuary
Member
If you want to see how the areas were initially intended to look, just bring a torch to pretty much any of the drab, dull gray spots and behold as it starts looking a lot better.
They really screwed up badly on this, but hey...you can just spend hours lighting all of the sconces so the game doesn't look so ugly in most areas.
Lol, what? It's a major step down in almost all areas. Hell, the area that tries to look like Anor Londo doesn't even look as good either. A lot of it has to do with the lighting, but not all of it. Some of the textures are just bad.
Exactly. The saddest part, is that the game is still at least fun and worth playing. It's just bullshit that the third game is the ugliest of the trilogy by far. It gives you this pretty decent looking area, only to jolt you back into reality a minute later with the next.
YianGaruga
Banned
Just because it seems unrealistic that a dev would comment on a game like this, wouldn't it be the best possible outcome? Tell us what you changed and why (preferably in advance of the release, not afterwards), how the PC version will look and perform so that everyone can make the best possible decision. Obviously not in as much detail as in your example.
It won't happen, but it should. I don't think staying silent and saying "oh well Bamco you tricked us, too bad, carry on" is the right thing to do here. Not getting an answer is one thing, not even asking/complaining sends the wrong message.
Seeing all the model and general scene differences I'm getting more convinced that the prerelease stuff was some unusually large vertical slice. Nothing else really makes all that much sense. The other options are
- there really was a last-minute game-wide downgrade for console performance reasons (the performance results of even the downgraded version do bear that out to some extent)
- there was a last-minute gameplay change to increase ambient lighting throughout the game and downplay the importance of light sources (why?)
- it was a simultaneously developed PC (or next-gen) version with remarkably different lighting and assets (but we have people who swear it ran on PS3)
- there really was a last-minute game-wide downgrade for console performance reasons (the performance results of even the downgraded version do bear that out to some extent)
- there was a last-minute gameplay change to increase ambient lighting throughout the game and downplay the importance of light sources (why?)
- it was a simultaneously developed PC (or next-gen) version with remarkably different lighting and assets (but we have people who swear it ran on PS3)
most likely next gen consoles
Future PhaZe
Member
The difference is truly shocking and I'm unsure what to make of it all yet, but I'm reserving judgement.
Until then, we should consider the following: what if the PC version doesn't more closely resemble prerelease footage? Dark Souls
Then I don't buy it
Look, I'd hate to have to do that but this is a company that basically stole my money with the ds release, promised me change this go around and then fails to communicate about these very obvious bait and switch changes?
It's unacceptable
PetriP-TNT
Member
Vote with your wallet? Return the game to Gamespot and buy TitanFall instead. Guerilla tried answering a question with actual technical details and what it got was a shitstorm filled with mostly faulty speculation about technology that people don't understand shit about*
*but they do think they do.
This option contains all my hopes and dreams.
Should have been on next gen consoles. How is the PC version shaping up?
don't hope or dream too much doe
YianGaruga
Banned
Dark Souls II - Definitive Edition - Coming holiday 2014 exclusively for PS4 and XBOX ONE.
I blame 360/PS3 visual parity. In addition to From Software, of course.
It looks like the 360 version might've had some visual leeway.
Not really, ps3 is vsynced and 360 isn't. So the choice is nasty screen tear all day with 360 or frame rate dips with ps3. Both are terrible.
Found footage of the mansion of the dragons....
Any inputs from tech experts would be good;
.ambient lighting on textures, is it baked or could the brightness controlled via a parameter?
.the bright reflection on the stair railing, uses specular maps and controlled by a parameter?
Also there is no cohesion of the type of material in those screens, between the stairs and the stair railings. Looks as if the stair railings assets are lifted from the older demonstration.
What hurts the game more than a visual degrade, would be fragmented or differential assets which make certain elements look different from the surroundings (ie..different materials).
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
In one of those screenshots from that area you could see that fat monster dangling in the middle of that corridor, inside a cage. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual prison was removed from this point, looking at how many other details were lost in the transition.
EDIT: this one, from this post.
People keep raising the bolded argument, but with the PC version of the original Dark Souls FROM never went out of their way as to say "PC will be the lead platform," "our new engine is built around PC and next-gen platforms," "we'll be adding all kinds of features that is expected from a current-day PC version" and various comments along those lines. Admittedly they don't have a stellar track record based on their previous titles, but Dark Souls only had a few months turn-around (akin to half a year tops IIRC) with Namco telling them to get it out the door as quickly as possible once the poll made it apparent that there was indeed demand for the game elsewhere, not just on consoles. Dark Souls II on the flipside took better hardware into consideration from the very beginning and they didn't just limit themselves to PS3 + Xbox 360... allegedly.Until then, we should consider the following: what if the PC version doesn't more closely resemble prerelease footage? Dark Souls
With the severity of the downgrade, the PC version looking closer to the TGS build shown here at minimum seems within the realm of possibility to me, with the wall in particular having near-identical textures to what's in the final build and the lighting effects being somewhat closer to what they first demonstrated. I'd much rather have it aim for the visual fidelity of the initial reveal though since those assets already exist and FROM is spending close to two months "polishing" the PC version, but who knows at this point. Maybe adding some of the missing details like those paintings in the Mansion of the Dragon wouldn't be too farfetched, since those are just small objects relative to sweeping changes to the level layout or geometry.
I'd find it very strange if the PC version would be nothing but a 1:1 port (albeit with extra bells & whistles) of what we're seeing on consoles right now, since it's sadly very obvious that key area's were supposed to evoke a different atmosphere and right now they... simply don't. By any stretch of the imagination. I can't imagine FROM being happy with that, especially with a franchise that helped them rise to mainstream fame and commercial success. If in reality they actually are content with the end result, then that'd be way too depressing for me.
CountAntonius
Member
From reached to high and showed too early. That's the issue here. I really hope the backlash doesn't make them regret their decision of developing for PC amd porting down to consoles. You guys realize that was probably the issue here. They started on powerful hardware and had to trim to make it playable on ancient hardware.
Sanctuary
Member
Yep. Sadly that's what I thought within the first few hours of playing. The PC version won't even end up being the best version, even though it would have no problems running it. Give the last gen and PC gamers the shit version so that they have to buy a current gen console. FROM kept saying "no comment" or "they don't know" when asked if the game was going to be on the PS4/Xbone, yet later confirmed that the engine was developed with those systems in mind.
Facism
Member
horrific. Thanks for putting the effort in. Massive lighting changes, massive texture and geometry changes. The release version looks horrible.
Sorry guys, forgot one:
Spat out the air in my mouth lol.
The Definitive Edition is already coming April 25th, no need to wait so long
There is no way in hell From doesn't regret the current gen outcome. They should have realised their goals weren't realistic on the current gen earlier, and should have either a) built the game with less demanding details from the beginning, maybe looking a little better than Dark Souls but with its art direction completely intact, or B) gone straight for next-gen. Either would be preferable to what we have now.
Saying they had next gen in mind is probably referring to PC, and maybe they'll be reusing the engine for any next gen games they have, not necessarily a DkS2 port.
I'd say those disclaimers are just another way of saying: "don't worry if it looks rough aound the edges, it's a work in progress"
Not "don't expect the game to look this good"
Sheesh what happened to the game? More importantly, why? The gimped version looks so flat and bland...such a bummer. And by nowI'm 100% sure the pc version will lack the old look, like others already said, by now it's a different game :<
Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 2: Prepare to Die Edition in my Steam library? I could live with that.
snesfanboy
Banned
why not? maybe it's a devious scheme at play
1) a beta is released with apparently great lighting
2) the game will not look that much better than PS360 when released on Xbox 1 and PS4
3) so, to make the difference bigger (and knowing full well that there are people who will double dip or maybe even triple dip, why not), they remove some features, that they are going to implement back into the next gen releases, and maybe chalk it up to 'performance issues'
just a theory...
1) a beta is released with apparently great lighting
2) the game will not look that much better than PS360 when released on Xbox 1 and PS4
3) so, to make the difference bigger (and knowing full well that there are people who will double dip or maybe even triple dip, why not), they remove some features, that they are going to implement back into the next gen releases, and maybe chalk it up to 'performance issues'
just a theory...
Cute but no, they were just stupid. It's true that they might be feeling a little more motivated to go PS4/Xbox One now though. Would PC users be able to handle like a 8 month delay if it meant it would be closer to reveal footage?
Sanctuary
Member
You do realize what happened with Tomb Raider right?
Developers don't say next-gen if they are talking about the PC. They just say PC, since it's always next-gen.
YianGaruga
Banned
That's the one I'll most likely be playing, but I wouldn't rule out a PS4/XBOX ONE exclusive version with upgraded assets, similar to Tomb Raider.
imabnormal.gifDark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 2: Prepare to Die Edition in my Steam library? I could live with that.
CountAntonius
Member
I need a hands on with the console version. People elsewhere online and in the OT really aren't complaining about the graphics at all. The downgrade from the early builds was huge when viewed side by side but if they still managed to make a good game (some say that looks better then DS1) then it won't be viewed as a failure. They should not have set their hopes so high. I really don't see them intentionally screwing anyone or holding off for a better version to get people to rebuy. The engine was made for the future and crammed onto current consoles. Sacrifices had to be made for performance.
Haunted
Member
This one looks similar, but without the dramatic chiaroscuro-style lighting, a simplified skybox and less dragons flying around:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndRpge6kHc8&t=5m13s
Amazing that an advanced lighting engine vs shitty flat lighting can create this much of a difference. That is pretty much a generational jump (back) I dare say, makes the final version look like a bug/WIP without the correctlighting implemented.Found footage of the mansion of the dragons. There's no way anybody anywhere can't claim this game hasn't been completely gutted. Just look at this shit, LOOK AT THIS SHIT:
Man, if the PC version also looks like shit like the console retail... there will be riots. I'm confident my rig could easily handle the quality shown in the reveals. Here's hoping the good lighting is still in there and they only branched the console builds to hit playable framerates.
I'm sure they're happy with the game itself for upholding the souls name, but I doubt the sacrifices were easy to make. It is kind of odd they seemingly happened right towards the end.
CountAntonius
Member
It's obvious the game would have ran like absolute shit if the lighting was left in. I guess they took the graphic backlash over the gameplay one which was probably a wise decision.
My theory: PC version will end up being more or less the console versions albeit with the black/torch mechanic lighting system back in, if we're lucky.
PS4/Xbox One version will come out one year later with ALL of the cut assets and textures back, and generally improved assets on top of that + DLC. After much discussion/reflection, From returns to the game with a vengeance. This direction makes sense as it lets the team get a good intro to PS4 hardware as the directors and artists meanwhile do preproduction for Dark Souls 3.