Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

Totobeni

An blind dancing ho
Nov 3, 2007
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Ok, I just have to vent somewhere. I'm supremely disappointed with the performance of the game. Granted I haven't gotten that far yet, but the frame rate for me has been super choppy everywhere I've been so far (Hub Town, Forest of the Giants, the castle in the forest) Also, the camera feels super wonky to me, the acceleration feels really off. Even with the sensitivity turned all the way down, it goes from rotating too slow to rotating faster than I wanted, the sweet spot is really small it seems.

I started to think that maybe I was misremembering how Dark Souls actually played. It's been a while since I played it last. I know the frame rate wasn't great in Dark Souls. I know it dropped really bad in Blight Town and got kind of choppy in other areas of the game, but I didn't remember it being as bad as it is in DS2. I also didn't remember having the problems I'm having with the camera either.

So after playing DS2 for a couple of hours today I decide to put in DS to see how it compares. I played from the Undead Asylum until the gargoyle fight, and the frame rate was much better in DS than in DS2, plus I didn't have any of the problems with the camera either. It just felt so much better to me in terms of performance and controls. I put in Demons Souls and played through 1-1 and it was the same thing.

I've been looking forward to DS2 for months, I was so psyched to finally pick it up, but it feels like such a downgrade from DS. I don't mind the mechanics changes that they made to the game, but the frame rate and the camera is really getting in the way of me enjoying the game. I got the game digital on PS3, which is the same system I played DS on. Is anybody else having the same issues? Is the framerate a problem with the digital copy of the game?

I really want to like the game, but it performs even worse than DS! I may just have to wait until its out on PC =( I can't believe that even after the downgrades, the game runs like utter dogshit. It's much, much worse than DeS and DS, to the point where it affects my ability to enjoy the game.
yeah there are many people talking on the framerate in DK2 (and just like the downgrade it got ignored completely in many reviews) and it's weird to have serious framerate drops even after a huge downgrade like the one we got in DK2.

I wonder if the new engine they use is just not coded well, maybe they've should stayed with the old one/Phyreengine.
 

CountAntonius

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Jul 30, 2010
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yeah there are many people talking on the framerate in DK2 (and just like the downgrade it got ignored completely in many reviews) and it's weird to have serious framerate drops even after a huge downgrade like the one we got in DK2.

I wonder if the new engine they use is just not coded well, maybe they've should stayed with the old one/Phyreengine.
Would the old engine have fared any better with the levels is DS2 though? Had the game been next gen and PC only these things wouldn't have happened but then nobody with current consoles would have had the opportunity to play it at all.
 

Grief.exe

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Jul 11, 2012
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Ok, I just have to vent somewhere. I'm supremely disappointed with the performance of the game. Granted I haven't gotten that far yet, but the frame rate for me has been super choppy everywhere I've been so far (Hub Town, Forest of the Giants, the castle in the forest) Also, the camera feels super wonky to me, the acceleration feels really off. Even with the sensitivity turned all the way down, it goes from rotating too slow to rotating faster than I wanted, the sweet spot is really small it seems.

I started to think that maybe I was misremembering how Dark Souls actually played. It's been a while since I played it last. I know the frame rate wasn't great in Dark Souls. I know it dropped really bad in Blight Town and got kind of choppy in other areas of the game, but I didn't remember it being as bad as it is in DS2. I also didn't remember having the problems I'm having with the camera either.

So after playing DS2 for a couple of hours today I decide to put in DS to see how it compares. I played from the Undead Asylum until the gargoyle fight, and the frame rate was much better in DS than in DS2, plus I didn't have any of the problems with the camera either. It just felt so much better to me in terms of performance and controls. I put in Demons Souls and played through 1-1 and it was the same thing.

I've been looking forward to DS2 for months, I was so psyched to finally pick it up, but it feels like such a downgrade from DS. I don't mind the mechanics changes that they made to the game, but the frame rate and the camera is really getting in the way of me enjoying the game. I got the game digital on PS3, which is the same system I played DS on. Is anybody else having the same issues? Is the framerate a problem with the digital copy of the game?

I really want to like the game, but it performs even worse than DS! I may just have to wait until its out on PC =( I can't believe that even after the downgrades, the game runs like utter dogshit. It's much, much worse than DeS and DS, to the point where it affects my ability to enjoy the game.
Playing Dark Souls at 30 FPS when it was first released on PC, then at 60 FPS when Durante found a way to unlock the frame rate, it was like a whole different game.

I will never go back to 30 FPS Dark Souls, let alone playing with drops below 30 or massive screen tearing.
 

CountAntonius

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Jul 30, 2010
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Playing Dark Souls at 30 FPS when it was first released on PC, then at 60 FPS when Durante found a way to unlock the frame rate, it was like a whole different game.

I will never go back to 30 FPS Dark Souls, let alone playing with drops below 30 or massive screen tearing.
Agreed. When they announced Darksouls was coming to PC it pushed me into finally building a new rig. Bad port and broken matchmaking aside it was still well worth it.
 

Totobeni

An blind dancing ho
Nov 3, 2007
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Would the old engine have fared any better with the levels is DS2 though? Had the game been next gen and PC only these things wouldn't have happened but then nobody with current consoles would have had the opportunity to play it at all.
I Dunno... maybe as they got more experience with it or maybe the new version of Phyreengine could've been better for them than using their own code because so far From failed completely delivering on all fronts with their new engine. They nuked the lighting and downgraded textures and models and the framerate (which From said it was a reason for the new engine) is as bad if not even worse than Demons Souls and Dark Souls.

To be fair From is not very techy studio. Ninja Blade, Armored Core V and their other games were good looking and got heavy framerate issues so it's weird to see them trying their proprietary gaming engine on PS3/360 and it shows... as they just failed on the things they wanted to do with it.
 

Garcia

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Oct 5, 2006
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So yeah, I just found 2 new areas in the game and my perception hasn't changed one bit: This game doesn't look pretty. The missing lighting hurts it so much.

The constant loading times are so annoying. You always have to wait between 15 to 20 seconds (sometimes twice that) whenever you die, get summoned or fast travel. Of the last 30 minutes I played I'm positive 5 went right into just staring at the screen.
 

akira28

Banned
Aug 31, 2010
43,266
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Lost Izalith was awful looking.
I think that was his point. But that peek of Izalith from the darkness of the Tombs was magical...

Some parts are ugly because they're ugly. Like the Depths. I just hope that DS2 contains some of the beauty and wonder of the first.

edit: maybe they can patch whatever they didn't include for the console versions. But please god let the PC version look like the earlier vids.
start a twitter campaign if you must.
 
Apr 27, 2011
6,892
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Not exactly on topic, but pretty close I guess. Something I have been wondering for quite a while is why DS doesn't have more visual mods like ENB shaders for Skyrim.

Basically I want to know, why exactly is it fairly easy to modify and add shaders for Skyrim ? Doesn't DSfix modify functions the same way that ENB series does for Skyrim? Why can't we use more complex effects, like bokeh, in Dark Souls? Is it possible and just no one is making an effort?
 

Totobeni

An blind dancing ho
Nov 3, 2007
18,732
0
0
I think that was his point. But that peek of Izalith from the darkness of the Tombs was magical...

Some parts are ugly because they're ugly. Like the Depths. I just hope that DS2 contains some of the beauty and wonder of the first.

edit: maybe they can patch whatever they didn't include for the console versions. But please god let the PC version look like the earlier vids.
start a twitter campaign if you must.
I honestly doubt it as the downgrade from the earlier version is not only the lighting but the textures, models, physics and environments so I don't think they kept two completely different version/source codes. PC might only get better quality textures and models if we are lucky.
 

Havel

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Sep 27, 2013
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Not exactly on topic, but pretty close I guess. Something I have been wondering for quite a while is why DS doesn't have more visual mods like ENB shaders for Skyrim.

Basically I want to know, why exactly is it fairly easy to modify and add shaders for Skyrim ? Doesn't DSfix modify functions the same way that ENB series does for Skyrim? Why can't we use more complex effects, like bokeh, in Dark Souls? Is it possible and just no one is making an effort?
Because Boris (the guy who made ENB) doesn't like Dark Souls. Yeah, simple as that.
 
Apr 27, 2011
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Because Boris (the guy who made ENB) doesn't like Dark Souls. Yeah, simple as that.
Hardy har.

ENB can run with DS, but there's not a lot you can do with it right now. Pretty much the same as what you can do with Sweet Effects, just contrast and color correction.

All of these mods basically do the same thing, but only Skyrim really gets impressive looking lighting and whatnot. I'd love to know exactly why this is the case.
 

Brerlappin

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Jan 1, 2013
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I cant believe the fancy lighting kicks in in cutscenes too. Thats jsut crazy. Talk about rubbing your face in it. The only bonus to take from that, is that if it can be turned on and off in game, then hopefully its just an .ini tweak for the PC version
 

Durante

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So the only improvements will be 1080p60fps? All the other downgrades like geometry and other stuff previously shown will also be downgraded in PC version?
Well, first of all, I don't think 1080p60 (4k60) is anything to scoff at compared to 720p22. Also, they already confirmed higher resolution textures, and higher resolution shadows as well as better SSAO should also be easy. The rest is up in the air.
 

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
Jul 1, 2009
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I cant believe the fancy lighting kicks in in cutscenes too. Thats jsut crazy. Talk about rubbing your face in it. The only bonus to take from that, is that if it can be turned on and off in game, then hopefully its just an .ini tweak for the PC version
Wait, cutscenes as in those realtime rendered/ingame cutscenes? Surely that must be really jarring? I mean if you're walking around the game looking like it does then all of the sudden there's a cutscene with a bunch of lighting effects that subsequently disappear as the cutscene is over?
 

Arkanius

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Wait, cutscenes as in those realtime rendered/ingame cutscenes? Surely that must be really jarring? I mean if you're walking around the game looking like it does then all of the sudden there's a cutscene with a bunch of lighting effects that subsequently disappear as the cutscene is over?
I think the cutscenes are pre-rendered...
Or am I mistaken?
 

Brerlappin

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Jan 1, 2013
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Wait, cutscenes as in those realtime rendered/ingame cutscenes? Surely that must be really jarring? I mean if you're walking around the game looking like it does then all of the sudden there's a cutscene with a bunch of lighting effects that subsequently disappear as the cutscene is over?
I havent palyed it, im waiting on the PC version, but earlier posts by Floex said that yeah, the enhanced lighting kicks in in cutscenes. Now unless theyre pre-rendered bink videos, that would suggest the lighting is indeed there, but just disabled. That isnt going to help with missing geometry or particle effects tho
 

gamerforever

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Mar 21, 2011
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Seems like a complete overhaul, and not just a simple downgrade - literally everything is different!

Should be dipatching soon - can't wait to give it a go.
 

_machine

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Oct 12, 2011
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If that's the case there's really no excuse for the PC version not to get the lighting system.
Not necessarily, from a development standpoint it rarely is just a matter of toggling a setting; supporting two different versions of the renderer(even if it's another platform) is really hard and costly most of the time. That's not to say it isn't possible that the PC version has it, but given they removed the dynamic lighting so far into the development there had to be really pressing issues with it and a month or two isn't really much time to get it back in a releasable state when they already released the game with different rendering components.
 

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
Jul 1, 2009
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I think the cutscenes are pre-rendered...
Or am I mistaken?
I havent palyed it, im waiting on the PC version, but earlier posts by Floex said that yeah, the enhanced lighting kicks in in cutscenes. Now unless theyre pre-rendered bink videos, that would suggest the lighting is indeed there, but just disabled. That isnt going to help with missing geometry or particle effects tho
Well when I think in-game cutscenes I think of scenes like the crow scene from DS1. I mean surely all the in game cutscenes must be rendered realtime/inengine considering your character is shown as is, with the armor and whatnot that you're currently wearing etc.

Oh well, I've decided to wait anyway. I've never played the game for the graphics but the atmosphere is key for me, it's one of the series' selling features for me and the thought of having a superior version potentially around the corner is enough for me to want to wait. As hard as it is :{...
 

Brerlappin

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The fact that they seem to have largely redesigned a few areas seems damning for the (assets used in the) PC version as well.
Yeah, PC version might get the lighting, but look at how well that area is designed in the right hand gif. Look at all the debris, the grass, the mountain range...they aint gonna add that in with an ini hack for the PC version. Its gone, and its not coming back.

Well when I think in-game cutscenes I think of scenes like the crow scene from DS1. I mean surely all the in game cutscenes must be rendered realtime/inengine considering your character is shown as is, with the armor and whatnot that you're currently wearing etc.
Yeah, i really hope so. If the cutscenes are real time, and the lighting is changing in them, then it means all the tools are there to enable it for the PC version
 

eot

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Apr 13, 2012
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Well when I think in-game cutscenes I think of scenes like the crow scene from DS1. I mean surely all the in game cutscenes must be rendered realtime/inengine considering your character is shown as is, with the armor and whatnot that you're currently wearing etc.

Oh well, I've decided to wait anyway. I've never played the game for the graphics but the atmosphere is key for me, it's one of the series' selling features for me and the thought of having a superior version potentially around the corner is enough for me to want to wait. As hard as it is :{...
Not all the cutscenes show your character, I've always suspected at least the gaping dragon intro one is pre-rendered because there's some weird artifacting going on with the water.
 

Piers

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Jun 26, 2012
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The fact that they seem to have largely redesigned a few areas seems damning for the (assets used in the) PC version as well.
They actually made it look weaker and empty too - which is odd because there's no way that could of impacted the performance that much, surely.
 

RVinP

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Jun 20, 2013
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Not all the cutscenes show your character, I've always suspected at least the gaping dragon intro one is pre-rendered because there's some weird artifacting going on with the water.
Dark Souls (1)
Its not pre-rendered on the PC, because setting up a high internal rendering resolution does render the Gaping Dragon intro at the set higher resolution. (<- as far as my eyes can tell)

Note: water effects always had a glitch, when using DSfix with any internal rendering resolution

--


it's almost like a jump from a system generation to the next one.
Apart from the assets and other visuals effects (like DOF), I am pretty sure that PC gamers will tweak the game to look atleast similar in colors present in the demonstration builds;
.move black and white level points
.gamma Gain
.tonemap
.vibrance
.curves
.sepia
.vignette
via SweetFX post processing

I just hope that FROM doesn't make it so, they couldn't tweak the visuals in the game to look as they visioned on the PC version. I hope they do it with the PC release of Dark Souls 2, without the player community fixing it for them to achieve the demonstration build visuals.
 

gamerforever

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Frustrating as it is, perhaps we should just accept it's beauty, because it still looks pretty decent and has bags of atmosphere.

I do hope for a current gen version and reckon it is nailed on for a Winter 2014 release.
 

FrankWza

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Feb 14, 2013
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It's probably going to look that way on PC as well, unfortunately.
wow. see, i think where from messed up is that the bottom/right looked they could actually attain those levels. it wasnt like the killzone2 reveal trailer a while back. guerilla still produced something that was better looking than anything else at the time so they were given some slack even though it wasnt what they showed in that trailer. From showed something that looked great but wasnt exactly groundbreaking and then came in way under what was promised. they also never showed the downgrade until it was in peoples(buyers) hands.
 

SoundLad

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Dec 7, 2012
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This thread makes me want to cry, I'm sure the game itself plays amazing but being one of those with a keen eye for detail I can't help but to feel absolutely disgusted at the lighting downgrade. All I can hope for is that the PC version comes out "enhanced" or something. Bad times.
 

soontroll

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Sep 19, 2013
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You guys do realise that the change from rocky mountain area to mossy run down forest is a design choice right? I get the worse textures and terrible lighting in the downgrade but the people complaining about how 'it looks like a totally different area' are being silly since... well... it IS supposed to be a different area.
 

Vitor711

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Nov 20, 2010
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I havent palyed it, im waiting on the PC version, but earlier posts by Floex said that yeah, the enhanced lighting kicks in in cutscenes. Now unless theyre pre-rendered bink videos, that would suggest the lighting is indeed there, but just disabled. That isnt going to help with missing geometry or particle effects tho
Man I hope that is true. Hoping so much right now. That would mean that it might be possible to toggle it on constantly.
 

Thrakier

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Jun 9, 2006
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I personally prefer the foliage in the left one, though the right one is more detailed, has a proper skybox, and, obviously, the lighting.
Foliage? You mean the green painted wall texture? The right one as ACTUAL foliage. It looks SO much better, it's not even worse. The left one, to me, looks even worse then DS1 and Demon's Souls.
 

Gbraga

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Aug 6, 2009
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I think that was his point. But that peek of Izalith from the darkness of the Tombs was magical...

Some parts are ugly because they're ugly. Like the Depths. I just hope that DS2 contains some of the beauty and wonder of the first.

edit: maybe they can patch whatever they didn't include for the console versions. But please god let the PC version look like the earlier vids.
start a twitter campaign if you must.
I think the Depths look really good :C
 

Haunted

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Nov 16, 2006
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it's almost like a jump from a system generation to the next one.
That's a straight up redesign. The end result roughly looks a generation behind what was shown earlier, but making such extensive changes to the assets and environment makes comparing the two scenes fairly difficult since we don't know how extensive other areas in the game have been changed. I think the overall technical downgrade is really egregious when you see two areas that haven't been changed and are just flat-out missing any sort of advanced lighting and normal mapping and cloth physics etc etc in the retail version. It's really sad to see. I know that it's still a great game that I will enjoy playing, but still, it's hard to not feel bummed out about what could've been if you've seen the graphical quality they've shown in the pre-release trailers and previews.

All that said, I still have hope that the PC mod community can salvage some of this mess. With all this coming to light now, maybe I don't want to be there day 1 - give the community a bit of time to hopefully sort this out. I mean, nothing'll ever beat Durante's 23-minute fix, but you know. :lol
 
Dec 20, 2005
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Just watched my housemate play his 360 copy, it certainly tears a lot but after seeing that smoothness its going to be damn hard to go back to my mostly 25 fps ps3 version :(
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Jun 9, 2004
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Is the grass in the final game, by the way? One of the demos I saw played featured very nice interactive grass that reacted smoothly to the player moving through it. I haven't seen it show up in any of the released footage yet but I could easily have missed it.
 

soontroll

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Sep 19, 2013
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Is the grass in the final game, by the way? One of the demos I saw played featured very nice interactive grass that reacted smoothly to the player moving through it. I haven't seen it show up in any of the released footage yet but I could easily have missed it.
The area you spawn in has tall grass that acts like that (I think). Not sure about the rest of the game since I haven't spoiled myself after that.
 

zma1013

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Apr 11, 2013
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I think that was his point. But that peek of Izalith from the darkness of the Tombs was magical...

Some parts are ugly because they're ugly. Like the Depths. I just hope that DS2 contains some of the beauty and wonder of the first.
That's the Demon Ruins area you see from the Tomb of the Giants, not Lost Izalith. Lost Izalith is underneath the Demon Ruins.
 

pa22word

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Oct 24, 2010
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Is the grass in the final game, by the way? One of the demos I saw played featured very nice interactive grass that reacted smoothly to the player moving through it. I haven't seen it show up in any of the released footage yet but I could easily have missed it.
It's there and animated (flows with the wind) but I'm pretty sure it's static. I'll try playing with it next time I boot it up though.