Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

Apr 12, 2010
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Unlikely since the 360 version runs better than the PS3's.
Im just trying to comprehend the decision of removing something that ran stable and looked better.

The lightning was working live on retail PS3s, why remove it, why?

In light of the information of the 3 versions, im starting to completely ignore the reveal footage, since its definitely just a tech demo.

But there is no reason at all as to why the TGS looks different than the retail.

Hence im left with assuming that they never had the lightning working on the 360 version and had to remove it on both to have parity or something.
 
Jun 6, 2010
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The weird thing it's why they haven't put the vsync setting options on both. I guess ps3 could run even better of the 360 with vsync totally off. A pity.
I don't think so. Minimum framerates are lower on the PS3. Vsync off doesn't help with that.

Im just trying to comprehend the decision of removing something that ran stable and looked better.

The lightning was working live on retail PS3s, why remove it, why?

In light of the information of the 3 versions, im starting to completely ignore the reveal footage, since its definitely just a tech demo.

But there is no reason at all as to why the TGS looks different than the retail.

Hence im left with assuming that they never had the lightning working on the 360 version and had to remove it on both to have parity or something.
I think it was you who proposed the alternate explanation, that the demo builds were a far more polished branch of development and the improvements weren't merged back with the main branch.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Im just trying to comprehend the decision of removing something that ran stable and looked better.

The lightning was working live on retail PS3s, why remove it, why?

In light of the information of the 3 versions, im starting to completely ignore the reveal footage, since its definitely just a tech demo.

But there is no reason at all as to why the TGS looks different than the retail.

Hence im left with assuming that they never had the lightning working on the 360 version and had to remove it on both to have parity or something.
Maybe in more demanding areas it made the PS3 run terribly too, and it's too important of a feature to simply turn it on and off depending on where you are, and they didn't have enough time to redesign the dungeons where the lighting destroyed performance, so they just cut it all.

I hope it's not 360's fault because that means they put equality between versions above all, and we wouldn't get the original use of the torch back on the PC version :/
 
Apr 12, 2010
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Canada
www.neogaf.com
I think the best we can hope for from the PC version is the TGS build. If I had to bet on one build, it would be that.
Being a complete negatron, I would bet on it looking exactly the same as the Xbox 360 version with added AF, resolution, AO and hopefully slightly sharper textures.

Lightning and geometry will be the same.

I sure as hell hope im wrong.
 
Im just trying to comprehend the decision of removing something that ran stable and looked better.

The lightning was working live on retail PS3s, why remove it, why?

In light of the information of the 3 versions, im starting to completely ignore the reveal footage, since its definitely just a tech demo.

But there is no reason at all as to why the TGS looks different than the retail.

Hence im left with assuming that they never had the lightning working on the 360 version and had to remove it on both to have parity or something.
Some people said the TGS build ran like crap. Even if it didn't that's only one section of the game. If the game as it is is already sub 30 I doubt the lighting would have no effect. The frames probably would have gotten to blightown levels in places and they chose to prevent that.
 
Apr 12, 2010
7,162
1
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Canada
www.neogaf.com
I don't think so. Minimum framerates are lower on the PS3. Vsync off doesn't help with that.


I think it was you who proposed the alternate explanation, that the demo builds were a far more polished branch of development and the improvements weren't merged back with the main branch.
Yeah, that theory still stands, but in light of the 3 builds info, im finding it hard to believe that they did a vertical slice twice.

One for the Reveal and one of the TGS test, though anything is possible.

I wonder if FROM ever told Namco, "guys the game cant look like this on the retail version, we better stop releasing media and builds that look like this" and Bandai saying "no, no, just show the stuff you guys achieved in your tech demos, no one will notice anyways"

Worse is, if that actually happened, Bandai was right, we are the only ones making a fuss and the rest of the media is just saying we are insane fans.
 
Jun 6, 2010
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They have dropped totally on 360 for a reason. Massive tearing it's the last choice of the developers. I doubt 360 run equally to ps3 with vsync. In theory ps3 should run better without any.
I'd have to do more research betwen vsync on and off but maybe you're right.

Yeah, that theory still stands, but in light of the 3 builds info, im finding it hard to believe that they did a vertical slice twice.

One for the Reveal and one of the TGS test, though anything is possible.

I wonder if FROM ever told Namco, "guys the game cant look like this on the retail version, we better stop releasing media and builds that look like this" and Bandai saying "no, no, just show the stuff you guys achieved in your tech demos, no one will notice anyways"

Worse is, if that actually happened, Bandai was right, we are the only ones making a fuss and the rest of the media is just saying we are insane fans.
Perhaps the differences between the two versions of the vertical slice are due to the first one meant to show off the PC version while the more recent one was intended to demo the console version.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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Hypothetically, if From or Namco actually owned up to gutting the lighting/textures, would they be able to add them back in through a patch? Or are we just completely fucked unless they release a PS4/Xbone version?
 

Squalor

Junior Member
May 27, 2013
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Hypothetically, if From or Namco actually owned up to gutting the lighting/textures, would they be able to add them back in through a patch? Or are we just completely fucked unless they release a PS4/Xbone version?
That would be one big-ass patch.

But why would they? Have you seen the ratings? It's in the 90s on Metacritic, and I bet the sales are going to be impressive.

In the end, it will only matter to a few hundred people on Internet forums.
 
Aug 22, 2013
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One thing I don't understand is all the grey areas, there are areas in the game that you can OBVIOUSLY tell by enemy placement that it should have been dark. How come there is so much grey, shouldn't making things dark be an easy fix?
 

SargerusBR

I love Pokken!
Jan 23, 2013
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That would be one big-ass patch.

But why would they? Have you seen the ratings? It's in the 90s on Metacritic, and I bet the sales are going to be impressive.

In the end, it will only matter to a few hundred people on Internet forums.
Yep, no way console version will change at all. All hopes are on PC
 
One thing I don't understand is all the grey areas, there are areas in the game that you can OBVIOUSLY tell by enemy placement that it should have been dark. How come there is so much grey, shouldn't making things dark be an easy fix?
Really seems like it was a last minute decision to remove the lighting. They didn't have enough time to touch up those areas that were never meant to be seen. I wonder how close they came to saying fuck it and risking the performance issues.


That would be one big-ass patch.

But why would they? Have you seen the ratings? It's in the 90s on Metacritic, and I bet the sales are going to be impressive.

In the end, it will only matter to a few hundred people on Internet forums.
The truth right there. It's not even being brought up at all in the OT.
 
Apr 11, 2013
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It's also ported from a game developed on PC which has a lot more in common with the 360 vs the PS3. The originals were made with PS3 in mind which explains while they the original was slightly better on PS3.
In recent years though many developers have gotten over the PS3 technical hurdles to make multiplatform releases in virtual parity with each other. I'm using this as the basis for my guess that the difference in framerate is mainly because of the vsync.

Ultimately I think I'm getting away from the original point of your comment and am actually agreeing with you that the lighting wasn't dumbed down because of the Xbox 360. I'd guess if vsync options were the same on both platforms, we'd be seeing similar performance in the framerate.
 
Dec 24, 2011
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Let me get this straight: the game, in the span of two months, is suddenly the subject of a massive graphic downgrade, which was never advertized in any way prior to retail?

Sorry, but I have to say it: this is false advertising. Every single person who pre-ordered the game has been wronged.

Please note that I'm not judging the quality of the game (heck, for all I know, the game probably runs way better that way), I'm simply pointing out that this is a serious stunt which should have legal consequences (not that it will, but it should).
 
Dec 8, 2006
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The game looks like a top PS360 game. People were maybe expecting too much from very old hardware. It's still one of the more impressive PS360 games, visually. At best the claim of false advertising is legit, if the difference is a huge deal and they explicitly stated that earlier footage was representative of PS360. It's not like we can't see the game now and things have never changed before.

I think downgrade hysteria can become ridiculous if people are unrealistic. Also Vsync is usually off on 360 if it holds a better framerate and tearing is less intrusive. There are other reasons for no triple-buffering.
 
In recent years though many developers have gotten over the PS3 technical hurdles to make multiplatform releases in virtual parity with each other. I'm using this as the basis for my guess that the difference in framerate is mainly because of the vsync.

Ultimately I think I'm getting away from the original point of your comment and am actually agreeing with you that the lighting wasn't dumbed down because of the Xbox 360. I'd guess if vsync options were the same on both platforms, we'd be seeing similar performance in the framerate.
Normally I would say yes but being that this is From Software and a new engine I can see them still struggling to get parity.
 
Mar 21, 2011
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Really seems like it was a last minute decision to remove the lighting. They didn't have enough time to touch up those areas that were never meant to be seen. I wonder how close they came to saying fuck it and risking the performance issues.
It is really obvious which areas weren't even supposed to really be visible. Anyone taken a look at the back wall in the wharf? It's one small repeating texture across the entire thing. The color doesn't really even match the more detailed rocks/textures elsewhere.
 
Jun 6, 2010
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The game looks like a top PS360 game. People were maybe expecting too much from very old hardware. It's still one of the more impressive PS360 games, visually. At best the claim of false advertising is legit, if the difference is a huge deal and they explicitly stated that earlier footage was representative of PS360. It's not like we can't see the game now and things have never changed before.

I think downgrade hysteria can become ridiculous if people are unrealistic. Also Vsync is usually off on 360 if it holds a better framerate and tearing is less intrusive. There are other reasons for no triple-buffering.
 
It is really obvious which areas weren't even supposed to really be visible. Anyone taken a look at the back wall in the wharf? It's one small repeating texture across the entire thing. The color doesn't really even match the more detailed rocks/textures elsewhere.
It actually makes sense to build it like that if the only part of it which was meant to be seen is the part you directly illuminate. That way, no one will notice the repeating texture and you get more detail in the small illuminated area.

Normally I would say yes but being that this is From Software and a new engine I can see them still struggling to get parity.
Particularly if you are developing a new engine primarily for PC and the new consoles. Time spent on PS3-specific optimization is mostly just sunk for that single product.
 
Apr 23, 2013
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Whether the PC has improved lighting/graphics will determine whether or not I buy the PC version day 1 or wait until it's on steam sale for under 30 bucks. You hear that bamco? If you don't put the lighting in, it'll cost you 20 dollars!
 
Mar 21, 2011
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It actually makes sense to build it like that if the only part of it which was meant to be seen is the part you directly illuminate. That way, no one will notice the repeating texture and you get more detail in the small illuminated area.
Yeah, definitely. That's what I mean. It just feels like more proof that the decision came in the eleventh hour.
 
Jul 11, 2012
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Denver
backloggery.com
The game looks like a top PS360 game. People were maybe expecting too much from very old hardware. It's still one of the more impressive PS360 games, visually. At best the claim of false advertising is legit, if the difference is a huge deal and they explicitly stated that earlier footage was representative of PS360. It's not like we can't see the game now and things have never changed before.

I think downgrade hysteria can become ridiculous if people are unrealistic. Also Vsync is usually off on 360 if it holds a better framerate and tearing is less intrusive. There are other reasons for no triple-buffering.
It seems like it is missing many of the graphical features that were in the past Souls games.
 
It seems like it is missing many of the graphical features that were in the past Souls games.
I don't think so. What would be an example?

Some areas apparently look bad because they were designed for a new lighting system which didn't manifest (at least on consoles), but it's not like DS1 had a lot of dynamic environment lighting -- it just didn't have areas designed for it either.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
May 27, 2013
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Looks about average for the gen to me. There has been much better and much worse.
This late in the generation, though, that is pretty disappointing that such a known developer and publisher would settle for "middle of the pack."

That's not to say the game isn't fun, but it is disappointing, especially since the last game sold well and made them plenty of money.
 
Mar 18, 2012
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The game looks like a top PS360 game. People were maybe expecting too much from very old hardware. It's still one of the more impressive PS360 games, visually. At best the claim of false advertising is legit, if the difference is a huge deal and they explicitly stated that earlier footage was representative of PS360. It's not like we can't see the game now and things have never changed before.

I think downgrade hysteria can become ridiculous if people are unrealistic. Also Vsync is usually off on 360 if it holds a better framerate and tearing is less intrusive. There are other reasons for no triple-buffering.
Game looks like crap.

Worse than lighting returns....top graphics my ass
 
Jul 11, 2012
43,857
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Denver
backloggery.com
I don't think so. What would be an example?

Some areas apparently look bad because they were designed for a new lighting system which didn't manifest (at least on consoles), but it's not like DS1 had a lot of dynamic environment lighting -- it just didn't have areas designed for it either.
From what I have seen, they removed the specular highlights and a lot of normal mapping as well.

I've only played the PC version of Dark Souls 1, but there were some amazing textures and effects in that game and I'm assuming those were present in the console versions as well.

Have you played Demons Souls or Dark Souls PS3?
Nope.
 
Sep 27, 2013
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But the game (and engine) still clearly has those features -- the assets just use them more rarely. I guess it's a different definition of "missing" effects.
I haven't seen any specular highlights in the game aside from the reveal footage and that 1 press shot which may or may not have been the PC version.