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David Jaffe Dice Talk - Why we shouldn't tell "stories"

Kintaro said:
Kind of funny to hear all of this out of Jaffe who is best known for a story based game (God of War) and not much else.
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God of War does a lot right with storytelling, but there's an example in it I'd like to look at.

Throughout the game, you're playing as Kratos, who's a bloodthirsty killer who's willing to do whatever it takes to achieve his goals of revenge and redemption. He doesn't care about other people, which is established by the end of the hydra fight ("I didn't come back for you."). This isn't a big deal, because most players who bought the game also don't care about non-player characters. They care about killing shit.

In Pandora's Temple, there's a puzzle where you have to sacrifice a soldier to open up a door. You push a cage with a guy inside up a slope, protecting him from enemies and keeping him from sliding downwards, so he can be dropped into a fire pit. Once he realizes what's happening, he starts begging you for mercy. This was a moment that was featured in a lot of the game's early press coverage.

Did anyone actually feel bad for that guy? Was anyone conflicted over what to do in that situation? I know I wasn't, because as a player, I'm usually as goal-driven as Kratos. If that were a movie, I might feel guilty or sad (it's not me doing it, so I can assess the implications), but as the actor, I want to do what I'm supposed to do, even if it's something that would traditionally be "wrong", or at least complicated.
 
sonicmj1 said:
God of War does a lot right with storytelling, but there's an example in it I'd like to look at.

Throughout the game, you're playing as Kratos, who's a bloodthirsty killer who's willing to do whatever it takes to achieve his goals of revenge and redemption. He doesn't care about other people, which is established by the end of the hydra fight ("I didn't come back for you."). This isn't a big deal, because most players who bought the game also don't care about non-player characters. They care about killing shit.

In Pandora's Temple, there's a puzzle where you have to sacrifice a soldier to open up a door. You push a cage with a guy inside up a slope, protecting him from enemies and keeping him from sliding downwards, so he can be dropped into a fire pit. Once he realizes what's happening, he starts begging you for mercy. This was a moment that was featured in a lot of the game's early press coverage.

Did anyone actually feel bad for that guy? Was anyone conflicted over what to do in that situation? I know I wasn't, because as a player, I'm usually as goal-driven as Kratos. If that were a movie, I might feel guilty or sad (it's not me doing it, so I can assess the implications), but as the actor, I want to do what I'm supposed to do, even if it's something that would traditionally be "wrong", or at least complicated.
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I felt bad for that guy.
 
I'm a little conflicted. Of two minds, if you will. On the one hand, I love me a good narrative, so I play a lot of games that are heavy on the narrative like 999 or RPGs. On the other hand, most people I know don't know why I play those since they "aren't games" according to most people I've spoken too on the subject.

And I do feel that in the case of say, The Legend of Zelda and Metroid, games can get worse the more game developers try to force more complex narrative into it. I like how in the old days, the premise of the game was in the manual, but after that it was basically nothing but game. There was a story being told, sort of, but it came via game progression rather than cut-scene progression.

In the end, I think the real problem is that people write a story and then develop a game that counteracts it. The gameplay works AGAINST the story, and this can really destroy the game's flow. Someone brought up Sonic 3 and Knuckles as the perfect example of how to have a minimal story told well that doesn't hurt the flow of the game. I completely agree. I also feel that having a little less story engages the player's imagination more as they have to fill in those blanks with their imaginations. I feel there's room for both in this medium, but the industry really needs to start thinking more about how it's USING story in games more than how to make them "better".
 
Rygar 8 Bit said:
how could you not like the opening of arkham city? that had to be one of the best openings of any game this generation
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I nearly took the game back because of it. Likewise Arkham Ayslum stayed unplayed for months because of its opening scene and I still haven't completed either. something about thoses game bores me to tears, although i love the combat.
 
The Xtortionist said:
I think he's talking more about the emotional ups and downs of the experience that are entirely player-driven.

Let's say I have an epic match of Call of Duty TDM. I start off the round with a one-in-a-million throwing knife across the map. Later in the game, we're losing but I somehow manage to hijack an enemy care package that contains an Osprey Gunner. The Osprey Gunner puts us within a few kills of winning but an enemy tries to shoot it down. Bam, two of my flares are gone and the next missile will destroy my Osprey and our hopes of winning. Luckily, a teammate kills the guy with the missile launcher as he's locked on and ready to fire and my Osprey goes on to win us the game.

That's a narrative, at least to me. I'm sure something similar could be done in Angry Birds.
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I guess. I dunno when I think narrative I think story
 
It's pretty weird that my two examples of good scenes where you aren't in control are going to be from Call of Duty, but they're the ones that stick with me the most.


Call of Duty 1: Invasion of Stalingrad. It's probably because I had been reading Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege, but like I said earlier, this scene made me cry with fear. It helped that I had a great sound system back then too (watching it on Youtube isn't the same, controling the camera and trying to find out where the planes were coming from is necessary interaction).

Call of Duty 4: Shock and Awe. Completely unexpected player death.

The biggest praise I can give to these two scenes is..."what else could you do?" There isn't any disconnect where you feel like if you had control, you could have done anything different (example being Gordon at the end of Half-Life 2: Episode 2, cheap move which I really disliked). Cinematic helplessness, I guess. They define the two games for me, so I'd hate for developpers to give up on aiming for emotional triggers.
 
If some of you actually listened to his talk you would've realized he's not denouncing story in games in their entirety. He doesn't think every story-heavy game is ass, he's mostly talking about stupid devs/publishers who are hung up on "telling a story" that they completely disregard the gameplay, and he's REALLY annoyed at the pretentious people saying that the "industry should grow up" by shoehorning more narrative in games.

I don't think he has anything against exceptionally well-written games, but I think he certainly believes that 80% of story in games is just fat that needs to be trimmed.
 
Jaffe isn't wrong for the most part and says a few good points. Funny, cool attitude. Some points from me (on his speech and this thread):

1. Videogames are not completely equivalent to sports (or many board games). They are more trying to be (lucid) dreams. It should be obvious why atmosphere matters in that case (whereas atmosphere in sports is pretty much happenstance). And this is where story comes in (and story could very well mean dialogue and cutscenes too, it is a vague term around these parts). It is just a tool to establish atmosphere, no different from music or art. This should also explain why stories, even "non-player authored" ones, are useful and why developing them isn't a bad idea. All things considered, feeling like you are in an hollywood action movie isn't bad at all... as long you don't feel like you are watching one, even outside of cutscenes.

2. With that in mind: It shouldn't be a question of "This medium can't do this" or "this medium isn't good at this". Videogames can and does hold every other medium in its palm. It is the highest form of art (which is another way of saying "entertainment"). However since it is more focused on interactivity you are not going to get movies or novels. Comparing pieces of videogames to movies and novels is straight up stupid, though a common practice on this forum. People should be paying attention to the function of stories in games (which still doesn't excuse a lot of games which use their stories poorly, but at least should stop people from saying bullshit like "there are no good videogame stories, cept for, like, Portal 2"). Same applies to movies vs novels.

2. "Trailer to a movie that doesn't exist" lol that's a good way to put it.

3. Jaffe missed the opportunity to really elaborate on why people wanting "more" is bullshit and why one should write a book for their messages. I rather not really get into it here, but movies are shitty ways to communicate philosophy just like political cartoons are shitty ways to communicate political theory. If you want to pass on a message then use the medium which doesn't feature plot twists, boss fights, and flashy distractions... just fucking say it in plain english, and in far more detail! You wouldn't tell your wife to pick up milk on the way home via a maze, then why do it for the human condition? Messages are best used as flavoring or inspiration when you are trying to build an illusion (an "experience") for an audience.

4. Jaffe list of special games (MW multiplayer, Angry Birds, etc) fucking sucks lol. Angry Birds doesn't embrace what makes gaming great, it lowers it and then commodifies it as a time waster, empty calories. The "more" in videogames are the challenging, complex, and immersing set of mechanics which build on the foundation of the classics of our past. The best power fantasies and brain teasers, etc.


Purexed said:
I find myself gravitating towards games that allow me to play and jump out on time. If I have an hour to spare, I'm going to be more likely to fire up FIFA or MW3 rather than Catherine or Uncharted.
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Catherine isn't like Uncharted (singleplayer) at all, lol. Especially if you unlock some of the other modes. Uncharted also has multiplayer (just like MW3 has a campaign and FIFA has management modes).
 
still people are confused, look mgs is a great story in a game but the story is the same for everyone. everyone tells the same stories about mgs, hid in a locker, hid in a box, etc.. yet who can tell the story with the drama of being in a dog fight, evading your tail by bailing out and killing them with an rpg and then parachuting to safety. there is a huge emotional difference between the two. in one case your heart thumps, your hands shake, you improvise, and finally feel releaf as your heart rate calms. in the other case its not emotional.

until you get the shakes after a critical moment in gaming you probably wont understand.

i guess its like hitting the game winning walk off home run vs watching it on tv, sure you might be invested emotionally but you dont feel anywhere near the emotional rollercoaster as you do being the one. telli g the story about watching it is lame but telling the story of living it is compelling.

these are the experiences games can evoke, but jaffe is saying that the industry is stuck telling us stories as opposed to letting us create them with our experiences. hes ranting about the machine, the money driven engine thats shaping the industry into something that it was not built on.
 
ShinjukoOtaku said:
Japan has that great little niche of Visual Novels, a genre of game that beyond a few cursory choices lacks gameplay. I almost see Uncharted joining this camp, i mean:

whats the biggest thorn in Uncharted side? that when you die you have to re-do a set piece, a trait that kills the intended flow of the story and momentarily breaks the immersion for the player.

i wouldn't be surprised if eventually these big budget story games find a way to dismantle this in built penalty and instead somehow work it into a branching path kind of similar to what Heavy Rain attempted.
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Which is why VNs and PnC Adventure titles work at this better: they come from the narrative side, and their "gameplay" is mostly narrative in scope.

Also, I am REAL scared of that kind of decision; that could amount to a ghettoising of gameplay as something only small games do.

Kifimbo said:
Jaffe on Twitter.
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Hahahahahaha!

ShinjukoOtaku said:
i totally agree. as OutUnderTheStars pointed out, it's almost like a split between two types of development philosophies.

The Videogame: Call of Duty Multiplayer, Twisted Metal, Beat Em Ups, Sport games, anything that places an emphasis on mechanics over narrative

Interactive Fiction: Uncharted, Call Of Duty Single Player, Heavy Rain, JRPGs

admittedly it's a pretty flimsy example but you can almost sense a divide taking place.
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*sigh* Depends on which one. I've heard as much cognitive dissonance-steeped whining about unique JRPG battle systems and character building methodologies as I've heard of the cognitive dissonance-steeped whining about angsty toe-headed idiots saving the world recently.

Incendiary said:
I think both types of games have their place in the market, however for me story-based games have to have decent gameplay for me to be interested in them. I didn't mind scrolling through all the text in 999 because the puzzles, where I got to play, were awesome and challenged my mind. On the flipside, the gameplay in FFXIII wasn't strong enough to grab me, which means I got bored of the story quickly.

The fact is, sometimes I just want to play bite-sized chunks of games where I can turn my brain off, and when I do that I turn to games like Super Meat Boy, Rayman Origins, Geometry Wars, etc. Games that don't have a story, or at least have a minimalist narrative. And sometimes I want to immerse myself in a huge story and environment and just spend hours upon hours playing one game and realize I haven't eaten in hours at 4 in the morning. And for that I'll turn to Skyrim, or Fallout, or other story-based narratives.

Regardless of opinion, though, the fact is without the "game," video games are just video. Like board games, without the game you've just got a board, and people get bored. Gaming, any type of gaming, has to keep the participants engaged. If you play a game for hours and don't get bored, the game's done it's job. Video games that keep their players engaged even through cut-scenes or whatever have succeeded in their goal. As soon as you start going "ugh, not ANOTHER cut-scene" then the game's lost focus.
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Winner, winner, chicken dinner. You expanded on what I was saying magnificently.
 
You guys do realize that he isn't suggesting story telling be thrown at the wayside. He wants mechanic to come first, and for unnecessary cinematics and flare to be drastically reduced. To him the gameplay and experience is where the story lies and develops, and if you can't capitalize on this then you are throwing away gaming's greatest potential as a medium.

I would agree with him to a large extent, not that there isn't place for grand narratives. But imagine if every cinematic scene in Uncharted could also be played. What if every cutscenes in metal gear solid was real time? I would say those would be better games if done right.
 
I liked his speech but the McDonalds bit at 17:00 to 18:00 really bothered me. He basically states developers shouldn't even try to create an interactive narrative because of a bad track record and if they want to express themselves they should move to another medium.

Honestly I think Sturgeon's Law applies here. Even if one were passionate enough to pursue storytelling through different platforms the odds would still be against them.

Anyway, my point is that artists should feel free to design whatever the fuck they want and not be pressured by the likes of David Jaffe to instead write a book or a screenplay or something.
 
injurai said:
But imagine if every cinematic scene in Uncharted could also be played. What if every cutscenes in metal gear solid was real time? I would say those would be better games if done right.
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That would suck. Played how? Like Heavy Rain? Or being free to move about but unable to actually do anything while characters talk around you like in Half-Life 2? Fuck that. Most cutscenes are used for dialogue and character interactions that can't really be done any other way. Cutscenes also give you editing and camerawork like a film that make them fun and engaging to watch. (Ideally anyway, they do if they are well produced which Uncharted and MGS certainly are.)
 
Skel1ingt0n said:
Completely agree; my three favorite games, in order, are KOTOR, MGS2, and FFIX; and a good reason for my love for these titles is because of their stories and characters.
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but all of those games had great, if not excellent, gameplay mechanics. FF9 i felt came back to FF roots. while MGS2 is the worst MGS (for me), its gameplay is its best and only redeeming area. KOTOR no question.

besides, these games allow for so much player freedom.
 
One of my favorite things about Uncharted is watching Sully do his thing in the cutscenes. That bleeds over into being excited to play sequences where you interact with him in the game. Naughty Dog's method in Uncharted is completely viable as a storytelling method and as a way to structure a game.
 
greycolumbus said:
I liked his speech but the McDonalds bit at 17:00 to 18:00 really bothered me. He basically states developers shouldn't even try to create an interactive narrative because of a bad track record and if they want to express themselves they should move to another medium.

Honestly I think Sturgeon's Law applies here. Even if one were passionate enough to pursue storytelling through different platforms the odds would still be against them.

Anyway, my point is that artists should feel free to design whatever the fuck they want and not be pressured by the likes of David Jaffe to instead write a book or a screenplay or something.
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but storytelling and narrative crap are what dominate this industry right now, so much so that every damn game out there during E3 has a cinematic trailer. i mean everything, even a game like Ace Combat has some drama in it.
 
This isn't really new. Jaffe has gone on the record on what he thinks about video-game stories. Incidentally, his views are very similar to Erik Wolpaw's, the writer behind Portal.
 
greycolumbus said:
Anyway, my point is that artists should feel free to design whatever the fuck they want and not be pressured by the likes of David Jaffe to instead write a book or a screenplay or something.
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hes disappointed as a gamer and a developer, as a gamer because the great story has lackluster gameplay in recent games. as a developer because its becoming hard to make games for gamers because the people with money want creative control and yet no experience or plan.

you are right but hes ranting about not enough control for those with the experience in the industry, money = control. think, halo, cod, etc. the developers are sick of them and have other ideas and dreams but the financial backers/investers dont want to gamble or trust, they want security and the highest return possible.
 
Pyrrhus said:
One of my favorite things about Uncharted is watching Sully do his thing in the cutscenes. That bleeds over into being excited to play sequences where you interact with him in the game. Naughty Dog's method in Uncharted is completely viable as a storytelling method and as a way to structure a game.
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i would have loved it if they did the same thing for gameplay. honestly, Uncharted is a very easy game. you only use some buttons, and those buttons don't even do that much. "traversal" is automatic and your hand is held throughout the whole damn game. if you increase the difficulty it'll only make the enemies have higher health, it does not affect their AI at all, they don't switch strategies, become more aggressive or tactical.

i love Uncharted, but come on the gameplay is its weakest point. the whole game is just watching a movie and just that. there is no challenge to overcome in terms of gameplay. enemy types are very basic, so are weapons, so are the puzzles. just everything is dumbed down.
 
Watched the whole thing! Initially I was fully opposed about what he was saying, but he does make a good point. But in reality, when we discuss GOOD story telling in games and cinematic moments that stay with us, we can only generally bring up the same 5 or so games. So this shows how EARLY we are in this type of genre and to just throw our hands up now and give up is not the answer. And having every developer solely making story centric cinematic experiences is not the answer. But it's good now that we have some of those companies pushing that side to see where it goes and still have those great games coming out that stay with what games HAVE been.

The game industry is so goddamn young and to say we know all that it is capable of and what the cap is, is ridiculous.

And also, I have to constantly reiterate this; Cinematic games are becoming a genre. And there are a lot of gamers that hate this genre (Jaffe being one of them). But why do you have to abolish it for the rest of us? I'm not a fan of JRPG's, Sport games, hack'n'slashes ect. but there is no way I'd want them to cease to exist or would I go into those types of threads bashing those that like them. Just let them exist. Because the best thing this medium gives us, is the choice of what we want to play.
 
I agree with Jaffe's point that gameplay shouldn't be compromised for story. I guess the thing I'm confused about, is that I can't really think of many examples where this has happened? I just don't see it as a big problem in the industry right now. What are some games where the narrative has had a negative impact on the gameplay?


ryuu99 said:
i would have loved it if they did the same thing for gameplay. honestly, Uncharted is a very easy game. you only use some buttons, and those buttons don't even do that much. "traversal" is automatic and your hand is held throughout the whole damn game. if you increase the difficulty it'll only make the enemies have higher health, it does not affect their AI at all, they don't switch strategies, become more aggressive or tactical.

i love Uncharted, but come on the gameplay is its weakest point. the whole game is just watching a movie and just that. there is no challenge to overcome in terms of gameplay. enemy types are very basic, so are weapons, so are the puzzles. just everything is dumbed down.
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Really? Uncharted has a very well told story for a video game, but I didn't replay all the games 3+ times just because of that. I've played the games so much because it's (in my opinion) the best TPS franchise out there currently.
 
While I dont agree with him entirely, he is interesting to listen to....kind of cool to see a counter point to modern game design
 
KingK said:
I agree with Jaffe's point that gameplay shouldn't be compromised for story. I guess the thing I'm confused about, is that I can't really think of many examples where this has happened? I just don't see it as a big problem in the industry right now. What are some games where the narrative has had a negative impact on the gameplay?
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Some would point to the Uncharted series, where it directly hinders player control for story telling. But I'd counter with that it offers more control (although very limited (this genre is still growing)) by letting the player be apart of what would usually be a prerendered Cinematic (completely passive/nonactive). A lot of gamers feel it would be better off avoiding such moments, but like I've said -- a lot of us enjoy those experiences.
 
Riposte said:
2. With that in mind: It shouldn't be a question of "This medium can't do this" or "this medium isn't good at this". Videogames can and does hold every other medium in its palm. It is the highest form of art (which is another way of saying "entertainment"). However since it is more focused on interactivity you are not going to get movies or novels. Comparing pieces of videogames to movies and novels is straight up stupid, though a common practice on this forum. People should be paying attention to the function of stories in games (which still doesn't excuse a lot of games which use their stories poorly, but at least should stop people from saying bullshit like "there are no good videogame stories, cept for, like, Portal 2"). Same applies to movies vs novels.
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I have to disagree. A good story is a good story is a good story. For me, story having pure gameplay utility or functionality does not compensate for its lack of quality. I can show you many poems, books, songs, plays, and operas highly purposive in nature (political) that are no less brilliant (and in some cases, more so) than fiction that exists solely for the purpose of entertainment or non-purposive art (art for the sake of art). You can never seriously compare the merits of The Brothers Karamazov and the works of W.H. Auden with, say, Goodfellas and the works of Kubrick, but you can concede that in some sense they are the epitome (or a fantastic representation of) their particular art form (and compare them in that sense). If you believe a game's inherent greatness comes from its ability to function as a game you have a different set of criteria to assess quality (a game wouldn't be the 'highest form of art' but simply one of many great forms of art), whereas, when you claim it has the capacity to be the 'highest form of art' you immediately thrust upon it a tougher set criteria that games in their current state simply cannot handle. Plus, our experience with stories is an oral (movie) and written (book) tradition, so, in a sense, that comparison has some merit (unlike that of a good movie versus a good book). And, I would argue that Portal has internal and external narrative consistency like no other game that does, to some extent, set it apart (but, that's a whole other topic).

And art does not necessarily equate to entertainment (and vice versa).
 
KingK said:
I agree with Jaffe's point that gameplay shouldn't be compromised for story. I guess the thing I'm confused about, is that I can't really think of many examples where this has happened? I just don't see it as a big problem in the industry right now. What are some games where the narrative has had a negative impact on the gameplay?
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Think about what the most successful games in the industry are, and why they're successful. Story usually doesn't have anything to do with it (success I mean)
 
KingK said:
I agree with Jaffe's point that gameplay shouldn't be compromised for story. I guess the thing I'm confused about, is that I can't really think of many examples where this has happened? I just don't see it as a big problem in the industry right now. What are some games where the narrative has had a negative impact on the gameplay?
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It's not just narrative in the most obvious sense of the word. Games doing ridiculous "PRESS A TO AWESOME" crap to advance the storyline are just as much of a problem as typical narrative exposition and cutscene filled "epics." Rather than build a game around a great set of mechanics, gameplay is being put in the back seat so you can press one button to do "KEWL STUFFZ" to sit back and watch the the story advance. Same deal with "first person cinematics" where you lose control so the story can do what it pleases until its finished with you. Same thing with the "roller coaster" style of "blockbuster" shooters where the player isn't doing ANYTHING but there's constantly a facade of noise and explosions everywhere to make it seem like you're having an impact on the world around you.

Instead of using action and reaction gameplay, atmosphere, art direction, in gameplay dialogue, etc. etc., a lot of game feel the need to direct every part of the experience to the point where you're almost playing an on-rails game.
 
Darknessbear said:
Watched the whole thing! Initially I was fully opposed about what he was saying, but he does make a good point. But in reality, when we discuss GOOD story telling in games and cinematic moments that stay with us, we can only generally bring up the same 5 or so games. So this shows how EARLY we are in this type of genre and to just throw our hands up now and give up is not the answer. And having every developer solely making story centric cinematic experiences is not the answer. But it's good now that we have some of those companies pushing that side to see where it goes and still have those great games coming out that stay with what games HAVE been.

The game industry is so goddamn young and to say we know all that it is capable of and what the cap is, is ridiculous.

And also, I have to constantly reiterate this; Cinematic games are becoming a genre. And there are a lot of gamers that hate this genre (Jaffe being one of them). But why do you have to abolish it for the rest of us? I'm not a fan of JRPG's, Sport games, hack'n'slashes ect. but there is no way I'd want them to cease to exist or would I go into those types of threads bashing those that like them. Just let them exist. Because the best thing this medium gives us, is the choice of what we want to play.
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I believe this is a flawed statement which as been quite overused. The videogame business is not that young. The best-selling games in this industry have probably a lot in common than it's acknowledged when it comes to why they all sold so well and helped to make gaming a popular medium on it's own.

CoffeeJanitor said:
Think about what the most successful games in the industry are, and why they're successful. Story usually doesn't have anything to do with it
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Indeed. After all, most of the people that consumes gaming as a form of entertainment aren't getting into it because of the narrative quality of the medium.
 
I don't mind being taken out of the gameplay portion of a game when I play. To me, a few minute or even a longer cut scene like the ones in a MGS game, are great to me because they have their purpose.

They can show off the teams ability for art direction, graphics, dialog, atmosphere, and a lot more. When all a game is play play play, and it doesn't do justice for its universe and characters involved, then I tend to find it mindless in a lot of ways.

It's why RPG's have always been my favorite genre. Maybe game narratives aren't as spectacular as most peoples favorite movie or tv show, but that doesn't mean they aren't enjoyable.

I love Metal Gear Solid 3's story, and it's one of my favorite pieces of entertainment(movies,books,tv shows) period.
 
ryuu99 said:
but storytelling and narrative crap are what dominate this industry right now, so much so that every damn game out there during E3 has a cinematic trailer. i mean everything, even a game like Ace Combat has some drama in it.
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Rawker said:
hes disappointed as a gamer and a developer, as a gamer because the great story has lackluster gameplay in recent games. as a developer because its becoming hard to make games for gamers because the people with money want creative control and yet no experience or plan.

you are right but hes ranting about not enough control for those with the experience in the industry, money = control. think, halo, cod, etc. the developers are sick of them and have other ideas and dreams but the financial backers/investers dont want to gamble or trust, they want security and the highest return possible.
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Both true. I guess I mostly took umbrage with his wording since I felt it undermined designers pursuing such endeavors.

Also the lack of decent storytelling in the medium and the forced development of a narrative from on high seem like two distinct problems, related though they may be. I think Jaffe implies this in his speech.
 
You know what, I'm going to kind of concede a bit. I'm a huge advocacy of story/cinematic game experiences. But I'm going to agree with one of Jaffes points..

He said it is odd that all these amazing story experiences games have shared over the years, have not even came close to matching some sappy commercial that makes him tear up every time. And he said this is due to player control (something along those lines). And I totally agree, I'm the biggest emotional baby when it comes to crap like that... I admit it dammit! Sometimes I tear up before my gf (she NEVER KNOWS). But damn, I've never had that feeling even come close to in a game.

And I think he's right. Because I think when something happens in a game, it is YOUR experience and you are in charge of it. So generally you'll feel more upset/angry if something sad happens, due to feeling like you perhaps failed in your story. Not sadness. You are taking the responsibility and it's a superficial one, so you can't feel very connected emotionally -- because YOU are in control. This is not coming out right... I'll reflect on this more. Hahaha.

But I lied, I've actually felt extreme sadness in a game before (devastation). But I was younger and it was harvest moon. Weird story.
 
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