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[Aokage]

Dear Sony,

Please let me do this on a systemwide OS level:

Thanks,

Nick

*Ahem*.

The PlayStation brand is a storied one, with a long history. Upon the American launch of the original PlayStation in 1995, the erstwhile Sony Computer Entertainment—now SIE—made a curious decision.

It was suggested that developers swap functionality of the ○ and × buttons for the West.

In Japanese culture, "○" is a universal symbol for yes, and "×" a universal symbol for no. With this cultural meaning—as well as the fact the function of these buttons broadly corresponded to those of the Super Famicom/Super Nintendo controller—their placement and intent felt natural. To this day, I am not entirely sure what motivated the decision to reverse "confirm" and "cancel" for Western markets.

Today, it is no longer a suggestion, but built into the PlayStation 3, PlayStation 4, and PlayStation Vita platforms. Asian units ship with ”confirm"/”cancel" as ○/×. Western units ship with ”confirm"/”cancel" as ×/○. This cannot be changed by general users.

Yes, I am aware functionality can be swapped via Accessibility menus. However, it does not entirely solve the problem: Games with hard-coded ○ and × functionality get borked, and on-screen button prompts no longer correspond with the physical buttons on your controller or Vita. Development/debugging builds of OS firmware have a simple toggle function that does not affect hard-coded functionality.

I want general user access to that function.

Why? Until the PlayStation 4 launch, all Sony consoles I owned were Japanese. The "Japanese" functions of ○ and × are forever stitched into my muscle memory. Today, with an American PS4 Pro and PSTV (thank goodness my Vita is Japanese!), I still have to adjust to the swap when playing games from different territories.

I realize I'm in a minority here, but I can't be the only one. People weaned on Western ○/× functionality must feel just as odd as I do swapping in and out of OS if they play Japanese or Asian import games.

What think you, NeoGAF?

Edit: Yes, developers usually hard-code these buttons' functionality, but there is an automatic ○/× swap fix embedded in the above platforms. Few developers take advantage of it, but perhaps more would if the toggle were to become accessible in general user OS firmware.

 

[THEaaron]

edited.

Guess reading the whole text helps.

 

[De-mon]

Nm.

 

[Rellik]

Ehm, this actually exists on os level.

They already did it.

Reading the OP helps.

 

[RagingAvatar]

OP doesn't actually mean literally swapping the circle and cross buttons, it already does that. Please read the OP people

EDIT: and yes op, you're not the only one, I'd love this.

 

[nekkid]

Reading is hard for some people.

 

[Aokage]

Ehm, this actually exists on os level.

My post may have been a bit confusing. The Accessibility "fix" isn't what I'm looking for.

 

[texhnolyze]

Yup, I do agree with OP, especially as I play Japanese games a lot.

/signed.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

I feel like we have been over this already...

 

[Jonneh3003]

Looks like the first two responses didn't read the OP.

 

[majik13]

Totally, especially after jumping back onto a Nintendo platform for the last month.(PS buttons where ingrained in me the last couple years) Why did Sony have to fuck up the standard? Its kind of a pain jumping back and forth, and my kids get frustrated too.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

EDIT - never mind.

 

[Soulflarz]

I wouldn't use it personally but I don't understand why I need to buy a jpn console for this.

Meanwhile no one reads the OP when you know about remapping.

 

[BocoDragon]

I always found it a baffling decision to switch O / X for western markets because while O and X are definitely "yes" and "no" in Japanese.... I feel X is still pretty much "no" in Western culture.

How do you close a window on an OS or a pop-up modal? An X button. X still means "cancel/close/no" in the West.

In 1995 someone said "westerners will think of X as 'check that box'" .... but I don't think that's really true and it sounds like a bit of a myth about Western culture fed to the Japanese team.

The weird thing is how this decision led to the bottom face button being confirm, even on Xbox. A little localization decision, based on the idea that Westerners would interpret symbols differently, unintentionally defined the standard position for "confirm button".

 

[Spinifex]

After not owning a Nintendo console for many years, I've had to unlearn my muscle memory with A being confirm on the Switch Pro controller. Now I'm all messed up when I go back to my PS4 / PC.

 

[the_batman]

who even looks at the controller unless it's your first day handling one. the X button in its placement on the controller is always the main button for a lot of games, whether it's jump, interact or run, so it feels natural once you get used to it.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Having played a mixture of Japanese and US games during the PS1, and PS2 days, I'm sort of used to just going back and forth between them. It would be nice if there was a universal way of setting it, but I'm probably in the minority who can go back and forth pretty easily between the two.

 

[ranmafan]

This is something that should really should be fixed,especially considering how the consoles are all region free and on a few occasions I've actually gotten western games that because of the way it's handled were impossible to complete on my Japanese system because the inputs were set in a way that if played on one it would be impossible to do the input the screen asked for. I specifically remember the Star Trek PS3 game was this way. Was insanely annoying when I came to that part. Never could beat it cause of that. If it could be done it would be great if the button situations like that could be avoided or fixed

 

[FormallyMegadrive]

The biggest wtf to me was Triangle being "Back/Cancel" in the PS1/PS2 era.

 

[Night Angel]

Worst case you can swap the buttons on the controller and in the OS, right? Not sure if that'd help with the hard-coded bits because I've never used the function.

This doesn't really bug me, but it seems like it would be a relatively easy thing to do.

I'd really like if Nintendo could do the same so I don't have to battle with the damn thing after swapping from my PC/PS/XB though. X/A in the bottom button is muscle memory for me.

 

[hemo memo]

Totally, especially after jumping back onto a Nintendo platform for the last month.(PS buttons where ingrained in me the last couple years) Why did Sony have to fuck up the standard? Its kind of a pain jumping back and forth, and my kids get frustrated too.

I still can't memorize the letters, when playing in my head it's always the shapes.

 

[Dunkley]

I definitely agree to this. IIRC PSP CFW could do exactly what you are requesting so as you say it's definitely been a feature for a while. I know you said Vita, PS3 and PS4 debugging features so yeah this shouldn't come as a surprise, but I felt like mentioning it since fans were able to make this a system option before.

And if they can make boost mode available to users, I think this should definitely be in the cards.

PS: lmao btw at how this thread is turning out to be a trap for people who reply before reading the OP.

 

[soqquatto]

Dear Sony,

Please let me do this on a systemwide OS level:

can't be done as easily as you think. you'd have to do it both in the system and in games. games' prompts are not system level "show [CIRCLE] icon here" but depend on what's written in the game code - so it's a developer call to put in "press [CIRCLE]" or "press button assigned to this function in this particular game who might or might not be [CIRCLE] now". it's really up to the developers, not sony.

 

[Aokage]

Sort of a relief to see folks who agree with me on both sides of the issue, from the Western and Asian perspective.

I always found it a baffling decision to switch O / X for western markets because while O and X are definitely "yes" and "no" in Japanese.... I feel X is still pretty much "no" in Western culture.

How do you close a window on an OS or a pop-up modal? An X button. X still means "cancel/close/no" in the West.

In 1995 someone said "westerners will think of X as 'check that box'" .... but I don't think that's really true and it sounds like a bit of a myth about Western culture fed to the Japanese team.

The weird thing is how this decision led to the bottom face button being confirm, even on Xbox. A little localization decision, based on the idea that Westerners would interpret symbols differently, unintentionally defined the standard position for "confirm button".

Whoa! I had never heard the "X means check a box" story. Whatever the reason for that strange 1995 decision, what a colossal legacy of problems it left.

 

[Bashtee]

Probably not going to happen on PS4. Every game would need a config file that the user can edit for button layout for this to work properly. I assume that isn't the case, otherwise that would've replaced the accessbility menu.

Small request on the surface, big problem beneath it.

 

[BocoDragon]

The X / O difference continues to create odd effects, for example:

Is X more appropriately a "jump button" or a "interact" button?

The X/bottom face button was definitely solidified as the jump button on the SNES, so worldwide we have the connotation that it's the normal jump button.

In Japan this is no problem, since they have established O/the right face button for "interact/confirm/talk to NPCs". It makes sense that you jump with X and interact with O. So many games are designed this way. For example, Final Fantasy XV.

But what happens when you bring the game West? Uh oh, you have to move the interact button to X... but what happens to the jump button? Some games move the jump button to triangle, but this is kind of unnatural outside of some FPS. So what Final Fantasy XV decided to do was have X be both a jump button and an interact button in the western version. So us western gamers are always accidentally hopping around as Noctis when we're trying to pick up an item....

 

[Rizzi]

Should be an option for the people that need it.
It confuses my muscle memory no end when I play a Japanese game on my PS4.

 

[Kuraudo]

It bothers me in Nier Automata where o initiates interactions but cancels everything else so you need to switch to x to select any options. It's clear they kept it o since the onscreen prompt was hardcoded and didn't want to create a new graphic, but I don't understand why they then went and switched the functionality for x and o for everything else as usual.

 

[hemo memo]

The X / O difference continues to create odd effects, for example:

Is X more appropriately a "jump button" or a "interact" button?

The X/bottom face button was definitely solidified as the jump button on the SNES, so worldwide we have the connotation that it's the normal jump button.

In Japan this is no problem, since they have established O/the right face button for "interact/confirm/talk to NPCs". It makes sense that you jump with X and interact with O. So many games are designed this way. For example, Final Fantasy XV.

But what happens when you bring the game West? Uh oh, you have to move the interact button to X... but what happens to the jump button? Some games move the jump button to triangle, but this is kind of unnatural outside of some FPS. So what Final Fantasy XV decided to do was have X be both a jump button and an interact button in the western version. So us western gamers are always accidentally hopping around as Noctis when we're trying to pick up an item....

Really? Japanese version of FFXV have different buttons for jump and interact?

 

[Aokage]

can't be done as easily as you think. you'd have to do it both in the system and in games. games' prompts are not system level "show [CIRCLE] icon here" but depend on what's written in the game code - so it's a developer call to put in "press [CIRCLE]" or "press button assigned to this function in this particular game who might or might not be [CIRCLE] now". it's really up to the developers, not sony.

As someone with work access to debug units for all the above consoles, I can confirm that their firmware's ○/× swap feature actually does do what you're describing in some games—usually major "triple A" titles with a simultaneous worldwide release. I believe this was introduced some time midway through PS3's lifecycle.

While it's true very few titles implement this, I'd still like the swap feature as an option in consumer OS firmware.

 

[LordDisco]

Oh, my goodness! This x1000!

I know you can change the mapping in Accessibility, but as you pointed out, it's not across the board. I also live in Japan, but if I download certain games from the NA store, the hard-coded O->X swap is nightmare fuel for me.

Especially with the Switch having come out recently and using its Pro Controller a lot, I have a hard time going back to the PS4 and playing certain games. The menus, especially, are the worst. For the PS4 UI and my Japanese games, everything is fine. O means forward, X means back, but if I'm playing most US games, it's the other way around and no other controller maps that way for me.

Why American people?!

 

[Bedameister]

Going from the Switch back to the PS4 is a nightmare. I couldn't even navigate the OS because I always pressed the wrong button.

 

[Spyware]

I realize I'm in a minority here, but I can't be the only one. People weaned on Western ○/× functionality must feel just as odd as I do if they play Japanese or Asian import games.

I can't say I do.
I recently bought japanese Vita and PSP after using western ones for years and had no problem with the change to the buttons.
In a day I could play japanese Vita, western PS4, something from Nintendo and then something that uses the Xbox pad and switch without a single mistake. Different consoles have different button setups and I can't relate to this problem at all.

I do think everyone should code their games for "press button assigned to this" and that everything should be swappable tho. Just because I don't have a problem with it doesn't mean I like when things are static and bad for others.

 

[Digital Savior]

I feel like we have been over this already...

Very recently.

For me it's not that hard to switch between confirmation and cancel.

 

[BocoDragon]

Really? Japanese version of FFXV have different buttons for jump and interact?

Yup.

 

[soqquatto]

As someone with work access to debug units for all the above consoles, I can confirm that their firmware's ○/× swap feature actually does do what you're describing in some games—usually major "triple A" titles with a simultaneous worldwide release. I believe this was introduced some time midway through PS3's lifecycle.

While it's true very few titles implement this, I'd still like the swap feature as an option in consumer OS firmware.

I know that a lot games don't call anything system-level when stating what button you have to press outside of the actual 'gaming action' (sorry for the borked terminology!). strings that contain the command needed to perform menu actions or similar are often pre-written and don't contain a dynamic handle. so you'd really have to enforce a global system-level call with developers, and you'd have to assign a great penalty during submission check to violations to this system to have it enforced properly, because developers tend to have their ideas on what they can get away in certification. also, bigger, more important titles usually can get away with pretty much anything and can break almost any manufacturer-given rule.

it could be done, but it would require an effort similar to the one needed to herd cats

 

[Aokage]

Ah, I didn't realize there was another ○/× complaint thread recently!

And yes, while I do of course adjust within a minute or two when playing a hard-coded Western PlayStation ecosystem game or any Xbox ecosystem game, moving from OS to game on PlayStation is jarring.

For example, I use PS4 Remote Play on my Japanese Vita often, and I have to think for a moment when exactly ○ is confirm and when it's not. Sigh.

Thank goodness Nintendo has always maintained their button placement. Switch is just...ahhh, so seamlessly yes.

Really? Japanese version of FFXV have different buttons for jump and interact?

It actually does. I haven't played any EFIGS/Western versions of FFXV, but in the Japanese version jump and interact are separate.

Western version button mapping sounds kind of awful, yikes.

I know that a lot games don't call anything system-level when stating what button you have to press outside of the actual 'gaming action' (sorry for the borked terminology!). strings that contain the command needed to perform menu actions or similar are often pre-written and don't contain a dynamic handle. so you'd really have to enforce a global system-level call with developers, and you'd have to assign a great penalty during submission check to violations to this system to have it enforced properly, because developers tend to have their ideas on what they can get away in certification. also, bigger, more important titles usually can get away with pretty much anything and can break almost any manufacturer-given rule.

it could be done, but it would require an effort similar to the one needed to herd cats

Oh I know, and I feel you. The option for dynamic handling is there if developers want to use it, but sure, the vast majority do not. I'm okay with that and don't expect it to change.

In simpler terms... I just want a Japanese OS on my American PS family hardware.

I kind of appreciate those early years of the PS1 where Sony wasn't that strict about localized games changing their buttons. Japanese games were just left as-is most of the time. Games like FFVII and MGS1 just had O to confirm, even in the western version.

Seems to me this was true even for a lot of PS2 games. I think Kojima's games in particular.

Yep. It was only with PS3 that it began to be part of the Sony TRC.

 

[BocoDragon]

I kind of appreciate those early years of the PS1 where Sony wasn't that strict about localized games changing their buttons. Japanese games were just left as-is most of the time. Games like FFVII and MGS1 just had O to confirm, even in the western version.

Seems to me this was true even for a lot of PS2 games. I think Kojima's games in particular.

By PS3/PSP the OS itself had the O/X difference coded into it.

 

[ggx2ac]

I feel like we have been over this already...

No, we had the opposite thread where someone outside Japan thinks their way is wrong.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?p=232779959

 

[Netto-kun]

I don't think Sony give a damn about at all. So I just decided to suck it up and import Vita 2K, Vita TV and PS4 from Japan.

 

[Akainu]

O

 

[kqedequalsvolvo]

I would like the functionality, mainly due to repeatedly cancelling out of menus by accident when playing import stuff. In-game I find this stuff less of an issue largely because 'action' buttons often come with on-screen prompts (e.g. picking up an item/open a door), or at least in the few import games I have.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Why? Until the PlayStation 4 launch, all Sony consoles I owned were Japanese. The "Japanese" functions of ○ and × are forever stitched into my muscle memory. Today, with an American PS4 Pro and PSTV (thank goodness my Vita is Japanese!), I still have to adjust to the swap when playing games from different territories.

Yep, had a Japanese PS3 and it still doesn't feel right to press X on the PS4 menus.

 

[DECK'ARD]

It was such a strange thing to change, I wish we'd find out the definitive reason why one day.

 

[BocoDragon]

It was such a strange thing to change, I wish we'd find out the definitive reason why one day.

The anecdote I gave earlier in the thread about Sony's Japanese team getting the feedback that westerners would see X as "check a box" was actually from some Sony interview/retrospective on the PS1 launch.

I wish I had the link but I've forgotten what it was called.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

I find it really weird to think that people actually struggle with this. Like aside from one "oh right" moment at the main menu of a game where you notice it's flipped from what you're used to, how can you keep messing up? As a gamer "sometimes buttons do different things on different games/systems" should be in your wheelhouse.

 

[pa22word]

Thread reminds me of when MGS4 came out and I went back to the press start screen like 4 straight times thinking "WTF?" on launch night because MGS1-3 all still used O for confirm in game but MGS4 finally relented in using X confirm.

It's an odd thing for sure, but I think westerners got the better placement. The added space between where X lays and the position of where the rest of your hand is on the controller is much more comfortable, imo.

 

[Business]

After not owning a Nintendo console for many years, I've had to unlearn my muscle memory with A being confirm on the Switch Pro controller. Now I'm all messed up when I go back to my PS4 / PC.

All the time I'm spending with Botw caused me to have the exact same problem.

 

[hemo memo]

Yup.

Wow, what a strange choice. Just keep the Japanese version one. People will get used to the control change but what they did here is worse.

 

[DECK'ARD]

The anecdote I gave earlier in the thread about Sony's Japanese team getting the feedback that westerners would see X as "check a box" was actually from some Sony interview/retrospective on the PS1 launch.

I wish I had the link but I've forgotten what it was called.

I guess that's as close as we'll get to the answer then!

I mean it's plausible and with game releases not being a global thing back then I guess it could have been seen as not that big of a deal and just another part of the localisation process to do later.