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[FukuDaruma]

the fact is that there is no learning curve to Souls combat system and there is no complex system for you to learn.

Jesus Christ... really? "no learning curve" and "no complex system"? how can you be so into your own bubble to say something so out of reality as that?

There's no "learning curve" because it is a fucking straight pit the game kicks your ass into from the very beginning. But even then, yes, there is. You learn to "git gud" over time.

A majority of players don't even know what half of the shit do in these games, unless they read a ton of fan pages and watch tons of videos from ultrahardcore fans that keep playing for years to be able to understand everything.

 

[Danjin44]

esus Christ... really? "no learning curve" and "no complex system"? how can you be so into your own bubble to say something so out of reality as that?

Have you played games like Astral Chain? even on normal difficulty sitting, there is learning curve and getting used to controlling two character at the same time.


In Xenoblade series there is lots of systems on top of each other, especially in the 2nd game, compare to those games Souls series really not complex, what this game does is punishes your mistakes.

 

[FukuDaruma]

People want to have their unapologizingly tough video game.

They have it anyway.

A game that does not offer an easier way out.

They don't take it. It's not for them. Doesn't affect their gameplay.

They want to go to a video game world that holds no punches and keeps its later sections available only through playing with a certain level of challenge.

They can still do exactly that.

When they get to the final area and the final boss, they have a different sense of them because they know the game in no way offered the player a way to get there easier.

No, it's because it was a hard challenge they enjoyed to overcome. They will keep doing it exactly the same. Nothing is lost.

An easy mode might not remove the option for challenge, but it absolutely removes the overall _sense_ of challenge.

what? it doesn't remove anything from your game when you play in the same difficulty level you always played.

Doom does not have the same _sense_ of challenge as Souls games have. And that's because the easy modes exist.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with that. The "sense of challenge" for you is the same when you play the hardest difficulty mode. It doesn't depend in the least what others do.

In Doom beating it in a harder mode feels like an option.

It is not if that's the only mode you like, as hardcore souls fans do.

Let them have their game.

They have it. Nobody is subtracting anything from them or the game.

It doesn't hurt you or anyone else to play a game you might not be able to beat.

I don't care to "beat" any game in the least. That's not my way of enjoying games. Souls game are not the only games people don't finish. There's plenty of other games people quit for many different reasons.

We used to play games like that all the time back in the day.

Tell me about it. I played Abu Simbel Profanation on a fucking Spectrum.

Let the world have a few games where the core of the game is that you feel you might not be able to beat them and where there is no other way to change that feeling except by trying to overcome it.

What? no. Me, with my evil powers will prevent the world from having those few games!
Come on, pal. That's tailored nonsense.

There are people who enjoy exactly that and if you remove that from those games then you deny this experience from those players.

If their right to deny is denied, their denying experience is denied. Poor them.

No-one is entitled to win every game there exists. Accept that and you will have fun even with games you can't win. I mean, isn't it better if you can enjoy both the games you can win and the games you can't win?

Nobody is asking for that entitlement. You're utterly wrong about the need of "winning" to be able to have fun. It's totally the opposite, some people need to feel like "winners" just by preventing others to enjoy a videogame.

Why do you want to remove even those few from existence?

I don't. The games are exactly the same for those people. It's just that they don't want to allow including others in a different way than theirs.

You write about all this like it's poetry. Like it is a magical experience that shouldn't be besmirched by allowing an easier experience for other people. It's NOT. Nothing you said is valid because cheats, trainers, savegame editors and mods exist, whether devs and purists like them or not. You can use them to make the games just a bit easier or go wild and make them the most absurdly comic mess you want.
So no, you're not preserving any special and untouchable pure soul by denying others. You can't. In fact, it's funny the most hardcore fans doing speedruns, no hit runs and such are the ones "raping" and breaking these games the most. Any of those runs really take all the "soul" out of the games.

 

[Flying Toaster]

If people put in as much time and effort towards Souls games as they do about accessibility and design change so they can play the game they say they cannot play I would imagine they would be able to play Souls.

 

[Spaceman292]

For people who have a life and don’t have a lot of time to replay the same section over and over again.

It would be great to have an easy setting so I can actually enjoy a Souls game for once.

Ninja Gaiden Black has an easy setting if you died 3 times in a row or something like that. It never took away from the original experience

And please don’t tell me about coop MP. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

I know everyone in the thread has already laughed at you, but I'd like to have a turn.
Hahahahahahahabbhahahahahhaaha you're a scrub

 

[V4skunk]

Just call New Game easy mode then have hard ng+.
Problems solved.

 

[Saruhashi]

A majority of players don't even know what half of the shit do in these games, unless they read a ton of fan pages and watch tons of videos from ultrahardcore fans that keep playing for years to be able to understand everything.

To be honest, I'm not even sure WHY that would be a bad thing?

Realistically, the worst case is the game is so bad that nobody plays it because of the impenetrable nature of the whole thing.

That isn't happening here. People are gladly buying these games regardless of your points above.

So nothing about the games as they are is so inherently bad that nobody buys them. If anything the opposite has happened and these games got a reputation for being tough, needing practice and needing the online community to untangle the whole package. Then THAT became their selling point.

Shit, if they came out with a trailer tomorrow for Sekiro 2 that outright had a tagine "no cinematics, no tutorials, no easy mode" people would be pre ordering in droves.

With that in mind you have to begin to ask what an "easy mode" would even look like. How easy is too easy? How easy is just right?

How was it even established that these games are "too hard"?

Surely it's been established that these games are far from impossible? So we can agree at least that in their current state the games need practice. How much practice is too much?

The OPs major gripe was that it takes too much time to learn the game.

How much time is acceptable for say one section of the game? 30 mins? 1 hour?

Same for a boss fight. What would be an acceptable amount of time to spend in one boss? Then how does an easy mode change it?

Fundamentaly I think the developers philosophy is important here and since Souls games tend to have new game plus, plus, plus, plus etc and daft items to make the game even harder and brutally tough DLC why do we not assume that the base game is already the easiest possible mode?

How much easier should it be?

For Souls games specifically I mean. Forget your fixation on Doom. Its a completly different game trying to achieve completly different effects.

 

[Saruhashi]

Just call New Game easy mode then have hard ng+.
Problems solved.

Don't they already do that?

The basic game is the easiest mode if you think about it that way. With players wanting more challenge being encouraged to mess around with builds and new game plus and all kinds of other wierd challenges.

The base game really is the easy mode and that's why people who prefer new game plus and no hit/no death runs etc don't complain because it doesn't affect them if some players just play through one time to the end credits.

Bloodborne even has the Chalice Dungeons where people who want more challenge can get it and the knowledge that people are skipping the Chalice Dungeon doesn't affect anyone or anything.

I suppose the argument is actually that the basic "new game" is not easy enough. It's still the easiest mode in the game though.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Don't they already do that?

The basic game is the easiest mode if you think about it that way. With players wanting more challenge being encouraged to mess around with builds and new game plus and all kinds of other wierd challenges.

The base game really is the easy mode and that's why people who prefer new game plus and no hit/no death runs etc don't complain because it doesn't affect them if some players just play through one time to the end credits.

Bloodborne even has the Chalice Dungeons where people who want more challenge can get it and the knowledge that people are skipping the Chalice Dungeon doesn't affect anyone or anything.

I suppose the argument is actually that the basic "new game" is not easy enough. It's still the easiest mode in the game though.

Man, you reminded me of how disappointing those CHalice dungeons were

Such a fantastic concept, but the lack of unique and varied tilesets ruined it. Made it feel really cookie cutter.

I wonder if next gen could bring this concept back, but make it a lot more enticing.

 

[Nymphae]

No, it doesn't

Yeah it does

This was just my personal case

Ok

I'm not a strong enough fan to know if Miyazaki ever said anything about it.

Well they've never added easy modes in any of their games despite people bitching about it since the original Demon's Souls, which should tell you something about how much they think it matters to what they're trying to accomplish.

 

[Airola]

They have it anyway.

Ok, what's unapologizingly hard in giving an easy mode to choose?
You don't understand that the mere existence of a choice makes the whole thing feel different.
The fact that you and other people ask and even demand for an easy mode proves exactly that.
That is what the creators of the game wanted and that is what a lot of players want too.

They don't take it. It's not for them. Doesn't affect their gameplay.

You are either ignoring what I wrote or you just don't understand the philosophy of those games.
You do not understand that it's about the feeling of the game world.
No matter how much the gameplay stays the same, the feel of the game world changes the moment you add an option to make the world easier.
It is no longer an "unbeatable" world you try to overcome as the game itself offers you the chance to make it "beatable" by a simple press of a button.

They can still do exactly that.

No, that's exactly what they can't do.
The game instantly holds punches when it offers you a way to make the world easier.
And what you don't understand in "later sections available only through playing with a certain level of challenge"?
Easy mode goes directly against that sentence.
Feels like you are not even really reading what I've written.

No, it's because it was a hard challenge they enjoyed to overcome. They will keep doing it exactly the same. Nothing is lost.

Of course you say nothing is lost because you don't understand the philosophy of these games.

what? it doesn't remove anything from your game when you play in the same difficulty level you always played.

The game world feels different when there is an option to do it easier built in the game. The enemies don't feel the same when you know you could do this easier by changing the difficulty setting in the options.
The fact that people desperately want an easy mode only proves that there is a different sense of dread to the enemies when the game offers no easy mode.

I mean, this is so weird that by arguing against this you are only proving this right.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with that. The "sense of challenge" for you is the same when you play the hardest difficulty mode. It doesn't depend in the least what others do.

This shows you don't understand the issue at all. You don't have a clue about the philosophy behind these games, yet you seem to speak on behalf of countless amount of fans of them.

It is not if that's the only mode you like, as hardcore souls fans do.

How many Souls fans do you think would say Doom has the same feeling and sense of dread a Souls game has?
Whether or not you choose the other option, the fact still remains that the difficulty is optional instead of the default minimum difficulty.

They have it. Nobody is subtracting anything from them or the game.

Ok, so as you've seen, this thread has quite a bit of Souls fans (and even a non-fan, me) who do not want the game to have an easy mode. Don't their voices count? They say it would harm their experience, and maybe even the brand. Then there are the game creators who obviously don't seem to want to add an easy mode either. So you, not having a clue about the core philosophy of the games, go and make claims about how your preferred option would be the best for the games and those who feel differently are wrong. You are the one who is advocating for denying a certain experience that a lot of people are vocally loving in these games.

I don't care to "beat" any game in the least. That's not my way of enjoying games. Souls game are not the only games people don't finish. There's plenty of other games people quit for many different reasons.

Then why do you feel the need to have an easy mode for these games?
I personally quit playing Dark Souls II after 10-20 minutes because I very much dislike modern games with god damn stupid dodge buttons and all. I wish I'd be able to love the mechanics of these games because I absolutely love the core idea. But I don't so I don't play them. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I don't feel a need to make any demands for the game a lot of people love the way it is.

Tell me about it. I played Abu Simbel Profanation on a fucking Spectrum.

Ok, I think I love you at least for a tiny bit of time now!
I hadn't heard about this game but googled it and it looks great!

If their right to deny is denied, their denying experience is denied. Poor them.

Another thing you don't get is that these games don't deny anything from anyone.
It's not as if there was an easy mode and then they suddenly took it away by a patch or something.
The game is what it is. It is presented the way it is. Everyone can try playing it. Some like it, some don't. Some can go far in it, some don't. Just because there are people who don't like it or who aren't able to go far in it doesn't mean something is denied from them. No-one has taken anything away from the people who don't like it or aren't good in it.

I mean, there literally is zero denying going on when the game is what it is and nothing has been changed of it. And then again what you are doing is exactly that. You are denying this game's existence in the form it is already presented.

Nobody is asking for that entitlement. You're utterly wrong about the need of "winning" to be able to have fun. It's totally the opposite, some people need to feel like "winners" just by preventing others to enjoy a videogame.

If you think a game being hard and a person wanting it to be hard means that this person is preventing others to enjoy a game, then it's you who's having a problem.
Besides, why do you care if someone boasts with winning this game? Let them boast. I have no issues with someone boasting with solving a Rubik's Cube, which I've been able to only solve maybe one side of it, maybe two at max. Not even if he'd tell to "git gud" with it.

I don't. The games are exactly the same for those people. It's just that they don't want to allow including others in a different way than theirs.

As I and others have said countless of times, you are wrong. And what do you mean by "including"? Including to what? Maybe they are the ones who are demanding inclusivity, whatever on earth that means in this context, because they don't want the others to have the game the way they love to have it.

You write about all this like it's poetry. Like it is a magical experience that shouldn't be besmirched by allowing an easier experience for other people. It's NOT. Nothing you said is valid because cheats, trainers, savegame editors and mods exist, whether devs and purists like them or not. You can use them to make the games just a bit easier or go wild and make them the most absurdly comic mess you want.
So no, you're not preserving any special and untouchable pure soul by denying others. You can't. In fact, it's funny the most hardcore fans doing speedruns, no hit runs and such are the ones "raping" and breaking these games the most. Any of those runs really take all the "soul" out of the games.

But it is a sort of a magical experience. And again, you don't get it because you don't understand the philosophy.
Cheats and mods have nothing to do with this issue here. Everyone can use whatever cheats they can. We are talking about what the devs should include to the game by design.

Imagine a writer writing a story to a game or a book or a movie, or whatever. Suddenly a bunch of people who feel the story is not to their liking come and demand the writer to include whatever plot changes they'd prefer the story to have. They say, "but you could keep the original story, just have the fantasy gay sex scene as an optional thing for those who like that - it doesn't take anything away from anyone". Do you think it wouldn't matter to the writer what "optional" things he would write to the world and the characters he has created? No, the optional thing would now be part of the universe the writer created.

Now, people are free to write whatever fan fiction they want and they are free to edit the story as much as they want, but the writer and the fans should be left alone without any demands for options to the canon. Actually canon is pretty good to explain the Souls thing too. It kinda is part of the canon that the world and the enemies are the way they are. They have the rules they have. The canonical world has a certain amount of items, the weapons have a certain power, the enemies have certain strength. Easy mode would make a change to that canon. The game's universe would now have this "magic button" that makes the enemies less strong and whatever else. But I guess you don't get the point of this either because, as shown many times in this thread, you don't understand the philosophy behind these games.

You can make your own fan fiction for the Souls games by cheats and mods on your own. Don't demand the devs to do that for you.

 

[renzolama]

am I too late?

 

[FukuDaruma]

the game itself offers you the chance to make it "beatable" by a simple press of a button.

No, it is already "beatable". It's not literally "impossible"... for everybody. It's just "too hard" for some people. "Too hard" being defined by themselves, according to their own capabilities, as opposed to other people telling them they know them better than themselves.
That "easier" option for those people could still be a harder experience for them than the current difficulty is for the "hardcore loving" fans.

This shows you don't understand the issue at all. You don't have a clue about the philosophy behind these games, yet you seem to speak on behalf of countless amount of fans of them.

Funny that, they guy that acoording to you "doesn't have a clue" played and enjoyed plenty of souls and similar games (just finished Mortal Shelll and currently playing NG+) while you quit after 10 minutes because you found basic dodging "stupid"...

I don't speak "on behalf of countless amount of fans" or anybody but me. I just support the people that want to be fans and ask (not "demand") for an easier experience according to their capabilities.

Ok, so as you've seen, this thread has quite a bit of Souls fans (and even a non-fan, me) who do not want the game to have an easy mode. Don't their voices count? They say it would harm their experience, and maybe even the brand. Then there are the game creators who obviously don't seem to want to add an easy mode either. So you, not having a clue about the core philosophy of the games, go and make claims about how your preferred option would be the best for the games and those who feel differently are wrong. You are the one who is advocating for denying a certain experience that a lot of people are vocally loving in these games.

Most are not even saying it would harm their experience, because they are well aware of how ridiculously false that is. Despite any disguising poetry, their gameplay experience keeps being exactly the same. They just don't have to use the easier option, which they don't want to. Pretending this "ruins their game" just because others could is just an inexcusable total nonsense.

Then why do you feel the need to have an easy mode for these games?

And you are they one telling me I don't read your posts...

Again: I don't. Some people are asking for it to fit their needs. I just support their petition to be able to enjoy these games in a way more fit to their capabilities.

Cheats and mods have nothing to do with this issue here.

Oooh, but they totally do.
All that nonsense about the "if there were a way to make things easier or get through that area or go directly to that boss it would lose all the magic sense of dread, the purity and blah blah" gets shown for what it really is: total nonsensical excuses.
There ARE already ways of doing all that. To a much higher degree than just adding an option to make the game a bit easier. And guess what... it didn't took anything from the hardcore purists that according to you would have their game ruined. NO, it already happened, and it did NOT.

The "you cheated not only the game but yourself" guys didn't have anything robbed from their experience. They're just mad other people can enjoy the game in a different way.

The game's universe would now have this "magic button" that makes the enemies less strong and whatever else.

That is the only unoriginal way you were able to come up with for an easier experience for the people that ask for it? It doesn't have to be like that. AT ALL. It doesn't necessarily have to be about making enemies weaker or making you stronger. It doesn't even have to be about giving you more souls or blood echoes, more items, more powerful weapons or any of that, even if some of that could be too. It could very well be just well integrated in lore tips about things you're doing wrong ( the kind of things you learn reading fan pages on the internet or watching streams of people that already know all that ), but properly integrated inside the game. And that doesn't need to be "hand holding". There's plenty of things that could be done in subtle (neither obtuse nor spoonfed) ways.

Claiming that making it easier for the people that ask for it can only be "making it a cake walk", "smash R1 to kill boss at first try", "a baby stroll", etc. are just ridiculous exaggerations.

Don't demand the devs to do that for you.

I don't "demand" shit. I don't even ask for anything, just support the people that do. I stated this already half a dozen times in this thread. But many of you still have to resort to lie about it and say I do.

 

[D.Final]

For people who have a life and don’t have a lot of time to replay the same section over and over again.

It would be great to have an easy setting so I can actually enjoy a Souls game for once.

Ninja Gaiden Black has an easy setting if you died 3 times in a row or something like that. It never took away from the original experience

And please don’t tell me about coop MP. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

If Sekiro doesn't need, why Demon?

 

[Danjin44]

If Sekiro doesn't need, why Demon?

Because based on their logic, fuck originality, fuck trying to be unique, every game needs to have "mass appeal" like Ubisoft and EA games.

 

[D.Final]

Because based on their logic, fuck originality, fuck trying to be unique, every game needs to have "mass appeal" like Ubisoft and EA games.

Welp
I just hope that they will stay completely original.
(since it's a Remake after all)

 

[Self]

The best argument so far...

"Mods do exist, cheaters do exist, I can manipulate the game engine at my will! It is possible! So why not?!"

Seriously, what to do with such people?
I... I'm speechless.

 

[Memorabilia]

Which Souls game should I start with? I'm a little OCD about playing games in chronological order of release and/or story arc. I'm guessing the obvious answer is Demons Souls. I have the OG for PS3, but only played a very little bit of it about 5-7 years ago before it somehow got shuffled off into the mountainous backlog. Is there any reason to skip it and start elsewhere or is this definitely the place to begin?

Aside from that, any tips on which type of character a rookie should start out with would be much appreciated. I seem to remember people using terms like "sword n board" for one play style (not unique to Souls games I know, but I do recollect that vs other styles being talked about). I recall there being one type of character/style that everyone generally agrees makes the game more doable (if not "easier") for clueless beginners like myself.

Also, is the lack of multi-player (no random help or "invasions"?) a major hindrance to enjoying it, since I seem to recall talk about the servers shutting down...?

 

[skneogaf]

I own dark souls 1 on xbox 360, dark souls 2 and 3 on steam and bloodborne on ps4pro.

I bought them did to everyone saying these are good.

I tried dark souls twice before but its a little overwhelming with the leveling options and potions and weapons and it all.

I kind of just want it to be simple upgrades whilst killing things skillfully without learning what the wizard language means.

So the easy mouse the op wants I want same difficulty as normal but without the super detailed customisation and upgrading.

 

[Keihart]

I own dark souls 1 on xbox 360, dark souls 2 and 3 on steam and bloodborne on ps4pro.

I bought them did to everyone saying these are good.

I tried dark souls twice before but its a little overwhelming with the leveling options and potions and weapons and it all.

I kind of just want it to be simple upgrades whilst killing things skillfully without learning what the wizard language means.

So the easy mouse the op wants I want same difficulty as normal but without the super detailed customisation and upgrading.

Sounds like you want to play another game then, try devil may cry series if you haven't , pretty straight forward and lots to master between all the skills and bumping up the difficulty.

 

[Saber]

Welp
I just hope that they will stay completely original.
(since it's a Remake after all)

I don't think this gonna be a problem. They never need casuals or baby players to support their games, so they will be fine.

 

[skneogaf]

Sounds like you want to play another game then, try devil may cry series if you haven't , pretty straight forward and lots to master between all the skills and bumping up the difficulty.

Played them.

Whdn I watch the demon souls gameplay trailer it looks absolutely amazing! Going through level/dungeons/castles etc killing normal size baddies then fighting a giant boss looks incredible but as I said the detailed menu and upgrade stuff reminds of playing a simulator driving game compared to I think what I want in a sim-cade so difficult but easy to understand.

I think ninja gaiden did it well back on 360/ps3

 

[Ozrimandias]

yeah, it's a valid point, and could get this type of games to a wider audience but my opinion on this matter is H O W A B O U T N O

 

[FukuDaruma]

The best argument so far...

"Mods do exist, cheaters do exist, I can manipulate the game engine at my will! It is possible! So why not?!"

Seriously, what to do with such people?

Not to keep lying about what they're saying, for starters.

What's been said is the existence of cheats, trainers and mods that allowed other people to do what they want didn't took anything from your experience, as some of you are trying to use as an excuse.

That fairy tale that Souls games are isolated magical experiences where knowing there's no other way to progress than to overcome the set difficulty is an essential part of the experience, and the player knows there never was a possibility to make the journey and the bosses any easier... it's just a load of bullshit. There WERE and there ARE ways to make the game easier and a lot more: to make you a fucking god, a fucking Midas, a lottery winner, a superolympic athlete, ... a lot more than any easier option by the devs could affect the game. That already happened, and keeps happening right now. Did that ruin your game? other people doing the real "cake walking" with a trainer did ruin any hardcore fan game experience?
NO, it's just the "You cheated not only the game but yourself" walking memes of the world who are salty about how others played those games.

It is a lot worse for the integrity of the games that some people end up resorting to trainers than it could be for the original devs to add some kind of easier experience for them.

It doesn't necessarily have to be about making enemies weaker or making you stronger. It doesn't even have to be about giving you more souls or blood echoes, more items, more powerful weapons or any of that, even if some of that could be too. It could very well be just well integrated in lore tips about things you're doing wrong ( the kind of things you learn reading fan pages on the internet or watching streams of people that already know all that ), but properly integrated inside the game. And that doesn't need to be "hand holding". There's plenty of things that could be done in subtle (neither obtuse nor spoonfed) ways.

Claiming that making it easier for the people that ask for it can only be "making it a cake walk", "smash R1 to kill boss at first try", "a baby stroll", etc. are just ridiculous exaggerations.

 

[Mr. Wedgewood]

Easy mode, change the world tendency to pure white.

 

[Self]

NO, it's just the "You cheated not only the game but yourself" walking memes of the world who are salty about how others played those games.

How does braking the game and not actually playing the game as intended make others salty? You can break a game down to it's binary code until nothing is left of it. You can even create your own game out of it's ashes.

What has this to do with anything?

 

[Lokaum D+]

I own dark souls 1 on xbox 360, dark souls 2 and 3 on steam and bloodborne on ps4pro.

I bought them did to everyone saying these are good.

I tried dark souls twice before but its a little overwhelming with the leveling options and potions and weapons and it all.

I kind of just want it to be simple upgrades whilst killing things skillfully without learning what the wizard language means.

So the easy mouse the op wants I want same difficulty as normal but without the super detailed customisation and upgrading.

PS: best Dark Souls 3 Review ever

 

[Airola]

No, it is already "beatable". It's not literally "impossible"... for everybody. It's just "too hard" for some people. "Too hard" being defined by themselves, according to their own capabilities, as opposed to other people telling them they know them better than themselves.
That "easier" option for those people could still be a harder experience for them than the current difficulty is for the "hardcore loving" fans.

For gods sake there is a reason I used those words in quotes. Of course it's already beatable to anyone.

What about people who can't beat it in the easy mode either? Should there be easier mode to them too? I bet you draw the line somewhere too. If they should care about people that feel the game is "too hard", then they should care about those who find easy mode too hard too. And when they would include easier mode for them, then they should care about those who feel even that is too hard. Eventually they would have to make their game to be beatable in a manner that goes against how they want their world and the enemies to be revealed to the player. I would argue that just adding a regular easy mode would already go against that and that's why they haven't added it.

Funny that, they guy that acoording to you "doesn't have a clue" played and enjoyed plenty of souls and similar games (just finished Mortal Shelll and currently playing NG+) while you quit after 10 minutes because you found basic dodging "stupid"...

I don't speak "on behalf of countless amount of fans" or anybody but me. I just support the people that want to be fans and ask (not "demand") for an easier experience according to their capabilities.

Yes, I don't have any problem to quit playing a game for some reason or another and leave it at that. I quit Lara Croft and the Temple of Osiris just because dodge roll is one of my pet peeves in video games. As soon as the tutorial box told me I should use a dodge roll to get past a trap and got past the trap I quit the game and never came back. Yeah that's an odd thing to hate but it is what it is. I don't go and tell this game needs an option to remove the dodge roll and change the level design to fit my stupid preference.

I have an extreme dislike for a button designated for dodging and dash forward mechanics in games. My interest for Celeste dropped as soon as I learned it's all about dashing mid air. But the thing is that I can understand what they are aiming for with that and I don't feel any need to have an option to make the game fit my likings.

I don't like to play extreme simulations either, but I appreciate their existence and I get what they're aiming at. To include an "easy mode" to some of them would defeat their original purpose.

Most are not even saying it would harm their experience, because they are well aware of how ridiculously false that is. Despite any disguising poetry, their gameplay experience keeps being exactly the same. They just don't have to use the easier option, which they don't want to. Pretending this "ruins their game" just because others could is just an inexcusable total nonsense.

It does not ruin the game "just because others could". That is a strawman you've been using from the beginning. You are making this be about players wanting to remove something from other players when it's first and foremost all about their own personal experience they don't want to be messed with. For them it has been since the beginning of the series the feeling of entering to a world that offers no way to start again and make the journey easier through a difficulty selection screen.

I don't care if others can now beat the games in The Disney Afternoon Collection easier because it has a rewind button, but for me personally it feels way different to play those games with only knowing about the existence of it. That's a direct example of this _option_ harming personal experience in the game. Taking that tough jump or encountering that tough enemy does not feel the same when you _know_ this game offers you a button to immediately correct your mistake. A lot of the original magic goes away with having that option. It doesn't matter if I don't use that option. It matters that knowing the option exists makes the situation ahead feel different. And yes, I understand that we had Game Genies and things like that to allow to do all kinds of things in those games, but the point is that the games themselves didn't have the game genie stuff built in to those games.

And you are they one telling me I don't read your posts...

Again: I don't. Some people are asking for it to fit their needs. I just support their petition to be able to enjoy these games in a way more fit to their capabilities.

Yes you do. You feel the need to do that because some people are asking for it.

Oooh, but they totally do.
All that nonsense about the "if there were a way to make things easier or get through that area or go directly to that boss it would lose all the magic sense of dread, the purity and blah blah" gets shown for what it really is: total nonsensical excuses.
There ARE already ways of doing all that. To a much higher degree than just adding an option to make the game a bit easier. And guess what... it didn't took anything from the hardcore purists that according to you would have their game ruined. NO, it already happened, and it did NOT.

The "you cheated not only the game but yourself" guys didn't have anything robbed from their experience. They're just mad other people can enjoy the game in a different way.

There aren't ways to do that, that are inside the game created by the developers.

Besides, if those cheats are the same thing, then where is the problem?
There are already ways to make the game easier by cheating and mods so why the game itself should have those included? People can already make the game easier for them so what on earth are you then asking for in this thread? Why not ask for modding options to be included in the game too? Why not ask some button to toggle "clothes on / clothes off" to options screen too. I mean, people already can do that on their own so why not add that to the game too?

This "cheating and mods already exist" thing is probably the most stupid argument for adding an easy mode to the game.

That is the only unoriginal way you were able to come up with for an easier experience for the people that ask for it? It doesn't have to be like that. AT ALL. It doesn't necessarily have to be about making enemies weaker or making you stronger. It doesn't even have to be about giving you more souls or blood echoes, more items, more powerful weapons or any of that, even if some of that could be too. It could very well be just well integrated in lore tips about things you're doing wrong ( the kind of things you learn reading fan pages on the internet or watching streams of people that already know all that ), but properly integrated inside the game. And that doesn't need to be "hand holding". There's plenty of things that could be done in subtle (not obtuse) ways.

Claiming that making it easier for the people that ask for it can only be "making it a cake walk", "smash R1 to kill boss at first try", "a baby stroll", etc. are just ridiculous exaggerations.

You know that's not what people are asking for when they ask for an easy mode
Do you think the OP would be satisfied with the game offering some helpful tips along the way? He even gave Ninja Gaiden as an example in what would be good for him.

The exaggerations exist because that's where your arguments are logically heading. Everyone draws the line somewhere. The devs have drawn the line to where it now is. You would probably draw the line in the game to not have a mode that lets you walk through the world and just bump into the enemies to kill them. Even as an option I would assume you wouldn't be for it.
So all the talk about the game having to be accessible to people who find it too hard for their liking is nonsense because there always are people who would like the game to be a bit easier even after adding an easy mode. So should the devs then cater to their needs too? Most games have already drawn their line to a super low difficulty. Why is it so bad that there are some games where the line is higher than that? Just because some people are asking for that?

I don't "demand" shit. I don't even ask for anything, just support the people that do. I stated this already half a dozen times in this thread. But many of you still have to resort to lie about it and say I do.

You are writing in a thread where the OP says the game needs to have this setting. I've assumed you are defending the initial argument in the title.

 

[Airola]

It is a lot worse for the integrity of the games that some people end up resorting to trainers than it could be for the original devs to add some kind of easier experience for them.

So when a game of chess is so hard for someone that the player ends up cheating in the game, it's worse for the integrity of the game because it has been designed to be what it is?

Or if Rubik's Cube is so hard to someone that he resorts to dismantling the cube and connecting the parts that way correctly, or "modding" the cube by just gluing colored papers on top of the cube to make the correct color patterns, it is worse for the integrity of the game.

So because people who would cheat on chess and Rubik's Cube exist they should've been designed to have an "easier mode" to their rules? Like, maybe the rules of chess would allow you to use your knight like you would use your soldier if things get too tough for you, and maybe Rubik's Cube should have a button that shows what part of the cube to move next.


Again, this only shows that even though you might've played the games and liked them, you do not understand the core philosophy of these games at all. Your claim about people resorting to cheating making the integrity of the games worse proves that without a shadow of doubt.

 

[_Ex_]

For people who have a life and don’t have a lot of time to replay the same section over and over again.

I did not play Demon's Souls until 2017. I was very late to the party. I was 38 years old, full time job, married, have a kid, dogs and cats, house mortgage and property maintenance, cars... all the adult shit you can think of one has to be responsible for. I don't normally even have time to start gaming until after 10PM, but I still do it at the cost of sleep. Well it took me 45 hours and many nights, but I eventually beat Demon's Souls. And I did so without using a strategy guide or walkthrough. It's not a matter of "time" to beat this game, it's a matter of desire and willpower. And the reward for doing so was absolutely exhilarating. It would not have been any reward at all if the game had been a cakewalk.

I highly doubt you "The Dama" have a busier life than me. People like you are just entitled and think the world should cower down to your expectations. You're the kind of person who'd go to Mt. Everest and complain that it doesn't have an escalator. Because you really want to stand on top of that summit, and feel like you climbed the mountain, but you don't actually want to do the work. People like you make me sick.

Atlus ruined Etrian Odyssey when they caved and started adding Picnic difficulty to the EO games on 3DS. I'd absolutely hate to see the same neutering bullshit happen to the Souls series.

 

[FunkMiller]

Tell you what, to the OP and everyone else who wants an easy mode:

We'll accept an easy mode when From Software put one in. So, until then, could you just shut the fuck up and either play the game or not?

 

[Lokaum D+]

put a easy mode and make enemies say " r u casul " everytime they died

 

[FukuDaruma]

What about people who can't beat it in the easy mode either? Should there be easier mode to them too?

We can cross that bridge when/if we get there.

It does not ruin the game "just because others could". That is a strawman you've been using from the beginning. You are making this be about players wanting to remove something from other players when it's first and foremost all about their own personal experience they don't want to be messed with.

No strawman at all.In fact, you're pointing out exactly what I've been saying all the time: It does not ruin the game "just because others could". It didn't. It doesn't. And it won't. "Their own personal experience they don't want to be messed with."... is never messed at all. The experience of the "You cheated not only the game but yourself" guy didn't got "messed" at all by the other guy using a cheat to make the game slower and fit his reaction ability. It wouldn't either if the game itself had an easy option.

For them it has been since the beginning of the series the feeling of entering to a world that offers no way to start again and make the journey easier through a difficulty selection screen.

Yeah, keep ridiculously narrowing the definition until you get to the point where it is like "the feeling of entering a world that offers no way for people with lesser capabilities to be able to play and enjoy it". That would be honest.

easier because it has a rewind button

Yeah, or "it's a cake walk", "smash R1 to kill boss at first try", "a baby stroll"... same old, same old.

knowing about the existence of it.

You already know the existence of it. There are other people doing it.

Taking that tough jump or encountering that tough enemy does not feel the same when you _know_ this game offers you a button to immediately correct your mistake.

Again with the ridiculous exaggerations. Wonder why they keep constantly appearing. Why not go full absurd and say "you're proposing a button that completes the game for you"? at least that lie would be absurdly funny.

"Taking that tough jump or encountering that tough enemy does not feel the same when you _know_ this trainer offers you a button to immediately correct your mistake."

You see how absurd your proposition is just by swapping the asked possibilty for the current reality that has been already affecting supossedly everybody?

A lot of the original magic goes away with having that option.

"A lot of the original magic goes away with having that trainer."

It doesn't matter if I don't use that option. It matters that knowing the option exists makes the situation ahead feel different.

"It doesn't matter if I don't use that trainer. It matters that knowing the trainer exists makes the situation ahead feel different."

but the point is that the games themselves didn't have the game genie stuff built in to those games.

And nobody is asking for that. Those allow for much much more and don't care about balance.

Yes you do. You feel the need to do that because some people are asking for it.

No, I don't. I don't "feel the need" of anything, even if you keep insisting on it to avoid acknowledging you were plainly wrong assuming that:

Then why do you feel the need to have an easy mode for these games?

There are already ways to make the game easier by cheating and mods so why the game itself should have those included? People can already make the game easier for them so what on earth are you then asking for in this thread?

Again: nobody is asking for cheats for the games (even if some game devs put those too). Some people (plenty) want to enjoy these games but are unable to due to their limitations. They are asking for an easier experience, and even if that doesn't affect me (or because of it) I support them.

Why not ask for modding options to be included in the game too?

No need, but the games will be all the better if modding was supported from the get-go. No game ever got worse because of modding, and plenty were elevated and even saved by it.

This "cheating and mods already exist" thing is probably the most stupid argument for adding an easy mode to the game.

That's because it's not. You're just trying to mislead to that in order to avoid the real point: the currently existing ways of having an easier experience didn't take anything from the experience of the players that didn't want them.

You are writing in a thread where the OP says the game needs to have this setting. I've assumed you are defending the initial argument in the title.

If you would have really read what I said instead of "assuming" then you wouldn't have to make false statements about what I said or stand for.

It's not like I wrote it just once. I've been saying many many times already that "I don't "demand" shit. I don't even ask for anything, just support the people that do."

 

[FukuDaruma]

PS: best Dark Souls 3 Review ever

Pretty good one. This too...

 

[tkscz]

For people who have a life and don’t have a lot of time to replay the same section over and over again.

It would be great to have an easy setting so I can actually enjoy a Souls game for once.

Ninja Gaiden Black has an easy setting if you died 3 times in a row or something like that. It never took away from the original experience

And please don’t tell me about coop MP. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

Been over this with many a people, if you want an easy mode in a game whose main mechanic is trial and error, you want a different game.

Ninja Gaiden is a hack and slash, you hack, you slash. Whether you hack and slash with more or less challenge doesn't stop the hacking and slashing from stopping. You fight the same enemies, you fight the same bosses, they are just easier to beat now.

With FROM titles, failing is apart of the game. You make it easier, you remove parts of the game and when people talk about the game, you'll have a completely different experience than they did, and still will feel left out. Enemies aren't even as tough as you think if you learn the best way to deal with them. The dodging, timing, attacking, strategizing, and item management make the combat what it is. You remove that and you get a Hack and Slash. No need for any of this stuff, just brute force your way through.

Look at it like this. In most games, hard mode just makes the enemies tougher and the player weaker, so they have to try harder to get through, but, they don't need to change their core strategy. In Resident Evil 4 for example, in professional mode, enemies become straight up bullet sponges, but I don't have to change the way I shoot from normal mode sense the game taught me to aim for weak points that haven't changed. But for a game like the FROM titles, you can't just make the enemies easier to kill and keep that same level of timing and strategy. Why dodge if you can tank the hits and kill the enemies with brute force and heal later? The game would play differently and not be what was intended. You can say you beat Dark Souls, but you would've beaten a completely different game and wouldn't be able to relate to the experiences of everyone else. You can try to make the argument that the strategy would be there, just make the enemies easier to kill, but as I explained, you don't NEED the strategy if you can just brute force your way through them. It's about having to think, or having the choice whether you think or just brute on through that makes the difference.

I get it, you want to play the popular game because everyone is playing it, but if you remove part of what makes the game works, would you have even played the same game that everyone raved about? Think about it that way.

 

[base]

No. The shared experience is part of what makes these games great.

Totally agree!

 

[Nymphae]

That "easier" option for those people could still be a harder experience for them than the current difficulty is for the "hardcore loving" fans.

level up your character instead of asking the game to provide a leveled down mode for babies

 

[Danjin44]

That "easier" option for those people could still be a harder experience for them than the current difficulty is for the "hardcore loving" fans.

There is already option....

You literally can summon other players to help you out.

 

[Grinchy]

They should add a mode where if it detects that you don't know what you're doing, it just starts playing a pre-programmed set of inputs that beats every section for you.

It'd be like when you hand the 2nd controller over to your young nephew and let him press buttons and think he's beating it, but the controller isn't even plugged in and you're doing it for him. But instead of it being a 6 year old, it's a 30 year old who gets to feel like a big boy!

 

[Airola]

We can cross that bridge when/if we get there.

That's a good reason why we shouldn't even entertain the thought of even getting that first easy mode made.
Let's draw the line where it already is so we don't have to get to increasingly more stupid discussions about how that's still not easy enough.

No strawman at all.In fact, you're pointing out exactly what I've been saying all the time: It does not ruin the game "just because others could". It didn't. It doesn't. And it won't. "Their own personal experience they don't want to be messed with."... is never messed at all. The experience of the "You cheated not only the game but yourself" guy didn't got "messed" at all by the other guy using a cheat to make the game slower and fit his reaction ability. It wouldn't either if the game itself had an easy option.

Yes, you have been strawmanning that all the time. The argument IS NOT that it ruins the game because others can do it. You keep on looking at that strawman so hard that you even go to arguments like "but cheats and mods already exist". The reason why you say that is because you see this issue as the strawman you have made and you are arguing against that. It is not about what others can do. It is what the player himself has been offered that is possible to do. They don't want it to be offered to themselves, first and foremost.

Yeah, keep ridiculously narrowing the definition until you get to the point where it is like "the feeling of entering a world that offers no way for people with lesser capabilities to be able to play and enjoy it". That would be honest.

You see it like that because you've been looking at your strawman the whole time.

Again with the ridiculous exaggerations. Wonder why they keep constantly appearing. Why not go full absurd and say "you're proposing a button that completes the game for you"? at least that lie would be absurdly funny.

"Taking that tough jump or encountering that tough enemy does not feel the same when you _know_ this trainer offers you a button to immediately correct your mistake."

You see how absurd your proposition is just by swapping the asked possibilty for the current reality that has been already affecting supossedly everybody?



"A lot of the original magic goes away with having that trainer."



"It doesn't matter if I don't use that trainer. It matters that knowing the trainer exists makes the situation ahead feel different."

This trainer example is complete idiocy.
Those trainers are not part of what the developers have made and they are not accessible through the game they've presented to you. They are not what the devs offer you and they do not matter. They are not what the official canon and rules for the game are. They do not matter.

My example of The Disney Afternoon Collection is an actual real example of how the option to make a game easier ruins the feel of the game. The point is not what the option actually is. The point is that only having an option to make things easier can have an effect to the player.
For one game it might be a rewind button, for another game it might be lack of permadeath, for another it might be removing power from the enemies. The point is that it is factually wrong when you claim an option to make game easier is just an option and can't change the experience of the player who doesn't use it.

And nobody is asking for that. Those allow for much much more and don't care about balance.

Way to miss the point completely, like whoooosh over it goes.

No, I don't. I don't "feel the need" of anything, even if you keep insisting on it to avoid acknowledging you were plainly wrong assuming that:

I feel the need to defend the integrity and the philosophy of these games.
You feel the need to defend the claims that this game needs an easy mode. You feel the games should have an easy mode because others might need it. While you might not need the easy mode for yourself, you feel the need to have the easy mode for others.

Case in point:

Again: nobody is asking for cheats for the games (even if some game devs put those too). Some people (plenty) want to enjoy these games but are unable to due to their limitations. They are asking for an easier experience, and even if that doesn't affect me (or because of it) I support them.

You are clearly feeling a need to have an easy mode for these games. Not necessarily for yourself but for others. It doesn't make your need any less of a need.

No need, but the games will be all the better if modding was supported from the get-go. No game ever got worse because of modding, and plenty were elevated and even saved by it.

Creators should also have the right to not include things in their game that would make their vision different as intended.

Imagine a sculpture artist.
He makes a sculpture and he wants it to be a certain thing.
He obviously can't stop people resculpturing it to something different, but he has no obligation to add a hammer and a chisel to the sculpture and say you are free to make it what you want. Some people would probably appreciate the inclusion of those tools but some would definitely appreciate the sense of integrity the artist had by not encouraging and including the choice to change the sculpture. The artist might not care if someone decides to change it to whatever, but at the same time he would not want to provide any extra tools to do that.

That's because it's not. You're just trying to mislead to that in order to avoid the real point: the currently existing ways of having an easier experience didn't take anything from the experience of the players that didn't want them.

That's because IT DOES NOT MATTER. Third party trainers and cheats DO NOT MATTER.
It is all about what the game itself offers. Trainers are completely irrelevant.

Whatever people want to mod their entertainment in their own time, it's their own business.
The existence of fan fiction does not matter for fans of the original work. It does not matter if someone wants to "mod" a story to whatever they want. It does not hurt the integrity of the original work. But if the creator would decide to put the fan fiction as part of the official canon, then it would matter.

If you would have really read what I said instead of "assuming" then you wouldn't have to make false statements about what I said or stand for.

It's not like I wrote it just once. I've been saying many many times already that "I don't "demand" shit. I don't even ask for anything, just support the people that do."

It is the same thing. You say it should happen because those people want it to happen. No need to beat around that bush.

 

[TintoConCasera]

There is already option....

You literally can summon other players to help you out.

This. Kind of honorless imo, but still much easier than going alone.
had to summon the first time I fought O&S :'(

 

[T8SC]

Summoning other players is not an "easy mode" ffs.

Soulsborne has such a toxic fanbase.

 

[Shubh_C63]

Best difficulty setting is no difficulty setting.

 

[Saruhashi]

Summoning other players is not an "easy mode" ffs.

Soulsborne has such a toxic fanbase.

How's that?

It makes the game easier for sure.

Does it only count if its something you need to select from an options menu?

There's plenty of ways to make the game easier. Those are baked into the games mechanics and RPG elements. Summoning, specific builds, certain items. All make the game significantly easier. You can even grind for souls easily enough.

None of that counts because it isn't pausing the game and selecting "easy" in the options.

FFS you even want an "easy node" for the act of making the game easier! Haha.

 

[FukuDaruma]

It is not about what others can do. It is what the player himself has been offered that is possible to do. They don't want it to be offered to themselves, first and foremost.

NO. They don't want it to be offered to others. That's the fucking point you keep trying to disguise again and again in all sort of increasingly pathetic excuses, constantly trying to narrowly redefine what exactly it is that they lose, to no avail.

- I don't want you offering me this option"

- Cool, because I ain't offering it to you. This is for other people that are not you.

- But if its there, even if I don't want it or will never take it, it's mere existence of use to others will ruin my game, because my joy is hard linked to it not existing for everybody.


See how absurdly pathetic your proposition is?

The point is that it is factually wrong when you claim an option to make game easier is just an option and can't change the experience of the player who doesn't use it.

Sure, sure. Just reread the previous answer as many times as you need.

Way to miss the point completely, like whoooosh over it goes.

More like down it goes, pulled out of your ass.

You are clearly feeling a need to have an easy mode for these games. Not necessarily for yourself but for others. It doesn't make your need any less of a need.

Amazingly lame rigmarole you mounted there. I guess that's why you get "need", "ask" and "demand" all interchangeably mixed and confused in your brain.

That's because IT DOES NOT MATTER. Third party trainers and cheats DO NOT MATTER.
It is all about what the game itself offers. Trainers are completely irrelevant.

The real point you can't avoid keeps being exactly the same: the currently existing ways of having an easier experience didn't take anything from the experience of the players that didn't want them.

What is irrelevant is if the existence of those ways came from inside or outside the game. Their mere existence didn't change the players experience.

The proposition "but it would if they were an option in the game, because then the players that don't want them and wouldn't use them would be affected by having a choice they won't use that's focused at others" is beyond idiotic.

It is the same thing.

Sure, it is exactly the same fucking thing to say I support the people that ask for an easier experience than saying I'm "demanding the devs". GTFO

 

[Lokaum D+]

lets do a soul game without bosses and instead of fighting lets put some hugs, eveyone ll love it

 

[FukuDaruma]

There is already option....
You literally can summon other players to help you out.

I never used that, always played solo... "OMG! it's mere existence in the game just ruined all my experience!"

Honestly, this is a good answer, even if it has its limitations and can make the game even worse:




And the games are so obscure and obtuse that one can beat the whole game, be on NG+ and still have no clue what phantoms are, how they work and what they do:



Grinding and farming is just... no. If that's what anybody needs, better use a trainer to get the souls you need and spend the slaving away grinding time playing the game instead.

 

[T8SC]

How's that?

It makes the game easier for sure.

Does it only count if its something you need to select from an options menu?

There's plenty of ways to make the game easier. Those are baked into the games mechanics and RPG elements. Summoning, specific builds, certain items. All make the game significantly easier. You can even grind for souls easily enough.

None of that counts because it isn't pausing the game and selecting "easy" in the options.

FFS you even want an "easy node" for the act of making the game easier! Haha.

You guys literally do just branch off randomly discussing specific items and other "game mechanics", which you probably have to find out about on Soulsborne.com, and cant handle the idea of an easier mode.

Doom has specific items, specific weapons etc etc it also has several modes of difficulty. Don't come with that "specific items" & "Game mechanics" bullshit, all games have stuff in them that you generally need to beat bosses further into the game. You don't beat Parthurnax with your first sword in Skyrim do you? You don't beat the Icon of Sin with the pistol in Doom 2 do you?

The most black & white toxic community of any game.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

The most black & white toxic community of any game.

This thread has followed the SJW cycle quite nicely

"We want to be included", then
"We think this community is excluding others because it doesn't want to change", then
"Toxic community for not liking our suggestions", then
"Why not just go find your own community if you want to exclude others?"

Visibile from a mile away, as was pointed out in the early pages of this thread.

 

[T8SC]

This thread has followed the SJW cycle quite nicely

"We want to be included", then
"We think this community is excluding others because it doesn't want to change", then
"Toxic community for not liking our suggestions", then
"Why not just go find your own community if you want to exclude others?"

Visibile from a mile away, as was pointed out in the early pages of this thread.

I'm still waiting for a decent reason for not having "any" difficulty options. As my view is stil l firmly of the belief that the fanbase don't want casuals to be able to play an "easier version" because then they cant shout "git gud" and "play something else".