His name is Luke Smith. You can drop the name calling now.
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Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.
- Thread starter sjay1994
- Start date
His name is Luke Smith. You can drop the name calling now.
It's not name calling. That's one of his nick names. Like when people call him Lukems or whatever else.
He even has it as his Twitter avatar. He's proud of being one of the very few Scarab Lords in WoW.
https://twitter.com/lukewasright
TheCanisDirus
Member
I do remember that... loads of times i'd be playing with friends and a match would disconnect and we'd have to wait for those one or two people to be allowed to re-join.
I believe in Bungie and really hope things get sorted out. I might actually wait and see how the launch goes before rushing to grab it now.
Jest Chillin
Member
Raids having more interesting designs isn't really a requirement and WoW showed that in their Cata dungeons pre-nerf. Unfortunately, by the time they went back to that design, LK had already made the player population accustomed to easier dungeon and raid content, so they cried foul despite being told ahead of time that Cata was going to be harder.
Destiny is attempting to start hard first, so as not to have that problem but it seems people are still carrying baggage from MMO's, and specifically WoW as most MMO's that aren't WoW don't design their Endgame content to be accessible through matchmaking.
I can understand the concern about missing out on the better designed content but I feel like we don't know yet if that will really be the case once we play it. The thing is though, this isn't a gear check gate. It isn't a hardcores only gate. It's a social one. Which is why I feel like all that needs to be addressed is the communication and grouping tools available in-game.
Because they use 3 players, not 6 and likely don't require the same level of coordination as Raids. That doesn't make them inferior content. Especially if they reward the most powerul arcane armor in the game.
GamingIsDead
Member
I'm highly doubting that from what we have seen that it will require the amount of coordination bungie is promising. The game's cooperative depth goes as far as borderlands. A few skills and damage types and very generous regenerative health and revive mechanics. The only limiting factor is maybe time.
There are plenty of co-operative shooters out there that require much more coordination than what we see in destiny and are held together exclusively with randoms.
ShadowsFell
Member
There should be the option to matchmake that way.
Heh, it sounded like a condescending name given the context. I was just unaware of his many titles. Carry on!
Weird that you care so much about those poor random scums failing and/or beating your Clan specific developed content.
lol not an elitist huh
Saving those plebs from themselves huh. How noble of you.
People will be doing that anyway. They shouldn't be forced into joining message boards to play content when Bungie could easily implement basic, simple social and matching features that 90% of all MMOs have.
KillerDark
Member
Exactly. That is the main issue with this design choice.
MWS Natural
Member
Casual and "end game" just sounds so odd in the same sentence. But I was a big FFXI player so my experiences might be a little different. I think bungie made the right decision and I welcome the challenge. Building a raid team as we speak..
HiredN00bs
Member
Few people actually know the nitty-gritty details of this particilar raid (and those that do are probably under NDAs). The IGN article says it requires six players. Let's say there is a puzzle that requires all six players to stand in six different exact positions and coordinate their actions. Realize that these experiences could be designed in such a way that one person could completely shut down your playthrough through lack of communication or cooperation. Such a type of experience is not fit for general matchmaking.
I'm not saying this is the case, I'm saying that we just don't know enough about what a raid is in Destiny to furiously demand such a specific thing. Adding matchmaking would be a formality; it's already in every other mode, and running in the background at all times. This is a very purposeful decision based on real results of player testing. Sometimes to create and enjoy unique and challenging experiences you have to make sacrifices.
Maybe it's only a time-limited gate, maybe when there are a large enough group of mature players to populate such a list, they'll make a list. Maybe not. This thread is full of armchair designers.
I'm not saying this is the case, I'm saying that we just don't know enough about what a raid is in Destiny to furiously demand such a specific thing. Adding matchmaking would be a formality; it's already in every other mode, and running in the background at all times. This is a very purposeful decision based on real results of player testing. Sometimes to create and enjoy unique and challenging experiences you have to make sacrifices.
Maybe it's only a time-limited gate, maybe when there are a large enough group of mature players to populate such a list, they'll make a list. Maybe not. This thread is full of armchair designers.
Union Carbine
Member
They really need to assign some real estate in the tower for raid organizing and implement a few social tools to facilitate it.
They have group continue though, don't they?
We'll see on release how it is. From what we know right now I feel no matchmaking is a bad decision but we won't know for sure until it's out. And it's not like people need to buy day 1 so if people are unsure they can wait and see how it turns out.
I'd still really like to hear more about end game outside of raiding though. Like a real in depth look at it.
I'd love to be able to do raids but I can't get 5 people on consistently. I'd rather stay with whoever I currently play with and just fill out the empty spots with randoms. Not because we want disposables but just to give more people a chance to see end game and maybe meet cool people along the way. I don't like having to use tools outside the game to do that for various reasons.
My favourite way to find new people to join guilds or whatever is to have them play with us and see first hand how good a fit they are.
I added "Mr." to try to show that I was using it respectfully. I guess I failed at that.
Think that made it worse, actually. Ha
HiredN00bs
Member
When urk mentioned the thing taking 16 hours for one particular group, I assumed so. But I read on NeoGAF that they're lazy for not adding matchmaking!
pieatorium
Member
so you haven't actually been reading peoples concerns
Oh...
I know Luke Smith has posted in this thread so I assume he is reading. I'm sorry if I offended. I may disagree with no matchmaking but that's no reason to risk insulting anyone. I didn't mean to be condescending about it. I honestly do think being Scarab Lord is an achievement worth boasting about.
But I'll stop using it to avoid misunderstanding.
I think bungie is worried that by allowing random matchmaking into the raids it will cast a negative light on their game
Imagine everyone could just matchmaker their way into the raid, the first challenge 90% of groups fail at due to lack of communication or teamwork.. The Internet backlash would be atrocious, people crying that bungie couldn't design group content well enough etc.. Even though the blame would solely rest on the players.
Also by limiting this content to groups only they have the ability to be able to design challenging content that people won't blast through.
They can only go so far with teamwork based content when your allowing your user base to join random parties where teamwork and communication get thrown out the window.
I'm glad they are doing it this way I hope they don't go back on their word.
Imagine everyone could just matchmaker their way into the raid, the first challenge 90% of groups fail at due to lack of communication or teamwork.. The Internet backlash would be atrocious, people crying that bungie couldn't design group content well enough etc.. Even though the blame would solely rest on the players.
Also by limiting this content to groups only they have the ability to be able to design challenging content that people won't blast through.
They can only go so far with teamwork based content when your allowing your user base to join random parties where teamwork and communication get thrown out the window.
I'm glad they are doing it this way I hope they don't go back on their word.
MADGAME
Member
Explain to me how this can't happen when "randoms" or non-clan players form a team by scrounging. Matchmaking is not the facilitator of failure.
Union Carbine
Member
I think that's a defensible philosophy, provided that you create tools to foster the teamwork, party-building, and communication that you're looking for. You can't rely on everyone using other devices as a second screen or additional interface to your game to make it happen.
GamingIsDead
Member
They have never thought matchmaking through. It's all been handled poorly in the past by bungie, options always extremely limited and poor choices when it comes to playing content i actually want to play.
Jest Chillin
Member
I know where you're coming from. My "clan" in shooters is typically 2-3 other guys. And in most shooters, the MP is simply PvP so matchmaking is a necessity. But having played a bunch of other MMO's, I understand what Destiny is going for and I like the idea. I started playing MMO's before any of them catered to solo or small groups of players. Even then I played solo most of the time and I still do for the most part. I'm also a parent now so I don't have a ton of time to farm stuff or to devout to super long Raids and the like. So I really do get the point of view that you and some others are expressing. I just disagree that it means that Bungie should change their design to suit us.
The biggest glaring problem is the difficulty in forming groups. Having to use PSN or XBL messaging system to check if someone is wants to do something or just jumping into their party without saying anything isn't cool. They need at least a basic messaging system (I'd be happy with pre-wrtten messages that players could select from) and they need a simple and clear UI based way to form groups. Until that happens, I'll do what I have to though and will use PSN to message people who I come across who I mesh with playstyle-wise and add them to my friends list. Then I'll use that in addition to my current regular group to form Raid groups when the time comes.
BobTheFork
Member
This is what I was wondering... It's like they see potential criticism that wouldn't be their fault and they want to stop it before it happens.
Broadbandito
Member
So what this means is that everyone needs to join a neogaf clan or a clan made with friends and get others to join and then use the forums on the bungie website to facilitate raid nights and with who and what groups. Great idea. GAF West is like 75 people deep on ps4 and not to mention almost all of my psn friends are getting destiny, this is a non issue for me.
KillerDark
Member
Very possible, but by not having it (and not having any grouping tools) they are going to have just as much negative light cast, see this topic as evidence.
LOL.
Never thought matchmaking through? They created it. It was their idea.
The more options the more you limit the player pool and the longer it takes everyone to find matches, its all pretty simple really.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
Yea, both of these things bother me for that reason (not speaking to randoms at all or playing with them in raids). They obviously have a vision for the game and don't want it to be tarnished, but I think they're severely limiting themselves because of it. It's probably the same reason they got rid of proximity chat after Halo 2, which was literally the best thing ever.
Honestly raids may have been so designed around teamwork to the point where a single random without a mic may screw up the experience, but that's when you have to start questioning their raid design in the first place, not just the option for matchmaking.
HiredN00bs
Member
Actually, I have. Maybe you haven't, because if what I'm mocking hasn't been expilicitly stated, it's definitely been implied.
Oh look, more valid criticism. I shouldn't be so dismissive!
They hadn't fucking built it yet. There was no campaign or firefight matchmaking until Reach. I suppose Apple omitted the iPhone from hardware offerings until 2007?
Ramocalypse
Member
Reminds me of when they omitted matchmaking for HALO:ODST firefight mode. RESULT: I barely ever got to play it....
FreddieQuell
Member
I'm sure Bungie just dropped the ball on implementing a well understood feature in the main focal point of their 10 year game project. There's no chance they have a reason for doing what they're doing. /s
Ramocalypse
Member
Whoah... someones touchy
Regardless it wasn't present, but if it was, a lot more people would have experienced it.
HiredN00bs
Member
Sorry, just getting annoyed with some of these ignorant posts. Everybody's an expert in a thread about a subject that a select few people fully understand.Whoah... someones touchy
Regardless it wasn't present, but if it was, a lot more people would have experienced it.
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=118020833&postcount=4108
Add that to the OP.
GamingIsDead
Member
Matchmaking is one of my biggest peeves of console gaming. It's hurt gaming far more then it's helped.
Considering they created it look how awful default firefight is in reach and there is no way to change it and host it publicly. There is no way to just play something as simple as capture the flag in halo with out join some dumb map list of various modes I don't care about.
Matchmaking could have easily existed coexisted with publicly hosted unranked modes/maps that could have spawned more community involvement but they never allowed it. For that reason I have no faith in their design decisions.
HiredN00bs
Member
There will be millions of people playing Destiny that want the things raids award. I think you'll be able to make friends or at least form partnerships just fine.
So you are campaigning for more of it and bitching about not having it?
KillerDark
Member
With what, the robust social features Destiny has in game? /s
GamingIsDead
Member
Doesn't need matchmaking really but could coexist, server browser could be setup similar to borderlands or any other cooperative game for all I care. Filters by levels/ experience or whatever from joining your game it's not that hard to understand.
Interesting to see arguments on both sides of this. It's funny, the reaction from the community when we've already went through this phase of "give us this" and Bungie did so, only to see the Community react with "man, it was SO much better back then!"
And yes, I'm referring to Firefight.
ODST Firefight Endure specifically. There was no matchmaking support, you had to find your own players. Thus when Reach launch, Bungie announced that there would be "firefight matchmaking", I would always see threads and discussions related to "how firefight lost it's meaning" in Reach when it became a spamfest of FRG's and Rocket Launchers, for spawn killing enemies for points, rather than for survival.
Raids, are a test of not only player skill, but leadership. As much as Bungie is hyping up the difficulty of Raiding, it would seem impossible to complete one WITHOUT a coordinated team, that's the whole point. It should be impossible without that coordination, otherwise it's not a Raid.
I'm indifferent on matchmaking support. But even if this is something that comes to fruition later down the road, it seems like an activity that has run countless playtests and uncoordinated teams throw their controllers in frustration because there is no teamwork, only to create feedback saying "Raids are too difficult!", "Nerf the boss!", "Raids are BS!".
Granted, those that have already play tested it are under NDA and we really can't offer insight to how it actually plays out until 5 weeks from now.
And yes, I'm referring to Firefight.
ODST Firefight Endure specifically. There was no matchmaking support, you had to find your own players. Thus when Reach launch, Bungie announced that there would be "firefight matchmaking", I would always see threads and discussions related to "how firefight lost it's meaning" in Reach when it became a spamfest of FRG's and Rocket Launchers, for spawn killing enemies for points, rather than for survival.
Raids, are a test of not only player skill, but leadership. As much as Bungie is hyping up the difficulty of Raiding, it would seem impossible to complete one WITHOUT a coordinated team, that's the whole point. It should be impossible without that coordination, otherwise it's not a Raid.
I'm indifferent on matchmaking support. But even if this is something that comes to fruition later down the road, it seems like an activity that has run countless playtests and uncoordinated teams throw their controllers in frustration because there is no teamwork, only to create feedback saying "Raids are too difficult!", "Nerf the boss!", "Raids are BS!".
Granted, those that have already play tested it are under NDA and we really can't offer insight to how it actually plays out until 5 weeks from now.
That's fair. I think they seem set on this decision though so...
I may be able to do raids occasionally if magic happens and everything is just right. But I'll probably go into Destiny assuming I won't ever raid. It's disappointing to miss out on what I believe will be the best designed content in the game. Which is why I really really want to see what else they have on offer other than daily/weekly quests.
How different does the Nightfall challenges actually make it and things like that.
I said previously that I considered this basically online co-op Halo on Playstation. And I was happy with that and had some excitement for the final product after beta. But for some reason this interview changed my perspective and now I am concerned about having enough content. I think it's because Luke Smith said "the game begins at 20", which suggests to me that the road to 20 is pretty short. It's also a common phrase with MMORPGs (that the game begins at end game).
I guess I'll have to keep watching for Destiny news up to release. I hate having to say this (like it's some threat or something...) but depending on what Bungie tells us from now to release I may or may not have to cancel day 1. I don't really mean it as a threat but more just a statement of how important it is to me that Bungie be communicative about their game features in the coming weeks. I assume the PR cycle is going to ramp up though so I'll have to watch.
Note: I've also played a lot of MMORPGs. I think you have more experience than I do though. I started with FFXI when I was really young but then moved on to more user friendly MMORPGs after years of it.
MADGAME
Member
Ok, a top guild didn't clear it after 16 hours, so only pre-formed groups are allowed to try and fail. Logic!
WhoaIsThatMars
Member
Make friends at the Tower. Also, you know more than 5 people with PS4s; you're on GAF.
Why would a top guild be good at an fps anyways. You can't even play Destiny with a keyboard.
Ramocalypse
Member
I get that they are essentially making a stand in this, but why cant the stand be "We will not decrease the difficulty.", instead of "We want to make it harder for you to try it."