TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Well, Rhetoric, as a discipline, exists for a reason.
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Destructoid writer let go over including relevant information in a story?
- Thread starter Goon Boon
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Well, Rhetoric, as a discipline, exists for a reason.
Not technically correct, but not entirely inaccurate.
I'll run a correction later.
ok sure i agree. this is a poor outcome for all i will admit that
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I didn't mean to be a dick either. I just don't want to muddy the waters on the discussion too much, because that guy has said some pretty much indefensible shit.
edit: well he's banned. Not trying to continue beating a dead horse, just didn't notice.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
When you lie about something people want to know the truth.
Not saying she shouldve been outed but once people found out theyve been lied to they want to know what really happened.
Not saying she shouldve been outed but once people found out theyve been lied to they want to know what really happened.
RPG Wizard
Member
He did at one point, yes. He also entirely separately drew public interest to her identity as a transwoman. As far as I can see from the twitter comments outing her, they have nothing to do with saving her life with respect to her public twitch suicide attempt.
As a result, I don't think this is as cut and dry as "So he revealed her identity, thus saving her life, and he got fired for that? Hmm."
You make it sound much simpler than it actually is.
StarCreator
Member
I'm not saying her actions were right, but given the history of violence against transgendered people (which I linked back in page 4 or something), I don't think it's a stretch that public ignorance of what transgenderism actually is was a primary factor in why she chose to attempt fraud rather than come out.
EricDiesel
Member
Being transgender isn't delusion or illness, it's a legitimate state of mind. This is an ignorant and hateful viewpoint. You're the exact kind of hostile person the she is hiding from when wanting her gender identity kept secret. I'd be terrified of these kind of opinions, too.
Outing someone as transgender without their explicit permission is not heroic or "saving their life". It's reckless, irresponcible, and shitty. There are people out there that could want her dead because of this information. You've got a real warped definition of "saving".
I won't defend her saying she had an illness she doesn't, but I feel what Alistair did is far worse. Nobody's life was in danger because of this indieGoGo, but Alistair's actions have put this woman in direct danger. He should be fired, no question.
Photolysis
Banned
I'm not in a position to pass judgement on how well this was handled as I haven't had time to get up to date with what happened. This does sound like a tragic situation, and Mr. Pinsof was placed in an extremely difficult position.
Defrauding people by soliciting donations under false pretenses is serious stuff. I'd say someone who discovered that would be morally obligated to do something about it.
What I would say also is that given the nature of the situation, it would seem that outing someone would be completely relevant and in the public interest. Accusing someone of engaging in such behaviour is itself very serious, so you have to back it up rather than give vague details, unless you want to get sued for libel. It's directly pertinent and so in of itself not a breech of journalistic ethics and someone's privacy.
Defrauding people by soliciting donations under false pretenses is serious stuff. I'd say someone who discovered that would be morally obligated to do something about it.
What I would say also is that given the nature of the situation, it would seem that outing someone would be completely relevant and in the public interest. Accusing someone of engaging in such behaviour is itself very serious, so you have to back it up rather than give vague details, unless you want to get sued for libel. It's directly pertinent and so in of itself not a breech of journalistic ethics and someone's privacy.
Open Source
Banned
I wonder how many are against this but were for Wikileaks' release of cables putting Afghani informants, etc. in danger, or NYTimes, etc. spilling state secrets on their front pages that also put lives in jeopardy.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
So people were defrauded? Isn't that illegal?
Wikileaks was not lying to people to try and get money.
Not even close to a good comparison.
Also the lives in jeopardy thing, facts tend to not really support that claim.
I won't classify it as an illness or delusion, but obviously biology screwed up somewhere if the person has the mental state of one gender and the body/sexual organs of another.
Of course this is not a reason to persecute the person or say they have mental issues, but sometimes I think people are too PC to be willing to admit that biologically something did not go as it should have.
People who would want her dead? You guys are putting WAY too much weight on this. im sorry but in the big picture Chloe Sagal doesnt exist outside of this small circle. Do you see this on the front page of CNN? You talk like theres some huge anti-trans hitmen organization looking for people like this... my god. She made one small indie game that ive never even heard of before this entire shitstorm... homesick? NOPE. sorry. and now her life is in danger
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Really?
tfur
Member
You!
Wow. Well this explains a lot about your opinion. Seems rather pathetic as well.
You embrace ignorance and lacking as your defense. This is not a complicated case, that needs to be wrapped in your excuse riddle of mediocrity.
Your defense is terribly weak.
Lot of people here need to read this: http://www.webmd.com/sex/gender-identity-disorder
Outing a scam artist no matter the reason shouldn't be punishable. Getting money from strangers under false pretenses is wrong and should be called out regardless of circumstances, imo. From a job perspective, he probably should have 1st went to his editor or ect to get the go ahead before outing the story, simply because it would have helped him with this clusterfuck, that said...
IF he wouldn't have been specific as to what the real reason for the scam, it would have been much worse, imo, because without coming out with real evidence or an accusation it is nothing more then that, and imo, would be irresponsible to the public to just come out with half information, when the journalist had the ability to protect the public. Specially when someone is willing to use the threat of death if they don't get treatment as a front for sympathy, do you need to be quite specific as to why you are calling this person out.
While people with gender disorders are typically dealing with a bunch of sociological issues, I dont think it give them a pass with premeditated fraud, like this. That actions of this person, certainly comes across as unstable, but that in no way give them a right to deceive the public out of their money for financial gain, no matter the reason. Issues like this hurt all those who are actually using these sites for honest help, and no matter who is doing it, when they try and take advantage of people and these types of websites, they should be called out completely to dissuade others from trying this crap.
While this person should get help, imo, fraud should be seriously considered for legal reasons, because fraud hurts a lot more people then GID.
Outing a scam artist no matter the reason shouldn't be punishable. Getting money from strangers under false pretenses is wrong and should be called out regardless of circumstances, imo. From a job perspective, he probably should have 1st went to his editor or ect to get the go ahead before outing the story, simply because it would have helped him with this clusterfuck, that said...
IF he wouldn't have been specific as to what the real reason for the scam, it would have been much worse, imo, because without coming out with real evidence or an accusation it is nothing more then that, and imo, would be irresponsible to the public to just come out with half information, when the journalist had the ability to protect the public. Specially when someone is willing to use the threat of death if they don't get treatment as a front for sympathy, do you need to be quite specific as to why you are calling this person out.
While people with gender disorders are typically dealing with a bunch of sociological issues, I dont think it give them a pass with premeditated fraud, like this. That actions of this person, certainly comes across as unstable, but that in no way give them a right to deceive the public out of their money for financial gain, no matter the reason. Issues like this hurt all those who are actually using these sites for honest help, and no matter who is doing it, when they try and take advantage of people and these types of websites, they should be called out completely to dissuade others from trying this crap.
While this person should get help, imo, fraud should be seriously considered for legal reasons, because fraud hurts a lot more people then GID.
Well I don't think you're going to find many trans people out there claiming that is how they were meant to be born. I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
Delusibeta
Banned
Here's my reading of the post in question: "I don't want universal healthcare because my tax dollars may fund someone's SRS". Hence, my reaction.
Although since, rayofash has definitely gazumped them in the "wat" factor.
[Edit] Ultimately, I am of the opinion that the main way the journo fucked up was in the delivery, which contained transphobic language.
I agree with you. They know something is not right.
People in this thread act like being born Trans is 100% normal and you are never to suggest that there is anything wrong about it.
One guy called it a birth defect and people slammed him as an insensitive, ignorant bigot. I think a birth defect is one of the theories as to the cause (the guy was wrong in calming to know the cause but that does not make him a bigot).
They didn't slam him for suggesting it a birth defect, though. They slammed him for calling it a delusion and comparing it to schizophrenia (which is disrespectful in more ways that one frankly), for shitting on reasonable people for "playing into their delusion", insistently referring to Chloe as a male, and lying about what "we know" when it comes to the cause of gender dysphoria as a fake justification for his bullshit.
You can't base your actions on how a handful of imbeciles will react. If you want to keep something secret then don't make that thing an integral component in an act of fraud you are committing.
As someone just now finding this story, I wish the OP was more thorough. Haven't seen the original article or the tweets for myself.
Just going off the general summary from the first 8 pages, I think I tend to side with Alstair. It's possible that his tone in the tweets was not ideal though, and with stuff this sensitive, tone alone can ruin your point.
It's unfortunate that this turned out the way it did, but I honestly think the original sin is running a scam. When you openly ask for the public's money, the only thing you give in return is complete and total transparency. People should expect this if they run any fundraising campaign.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
thisisneogaf.gif
You believe in absolute journalistic truth without having actually seen or experienced the unfortunate realities of working as a journalist. It's commendable you can do weak-kneed posturing while still sitting in the armchair.
Ok I updated my journal. My comment:
2 things:
1. Journalist should be fired.
Not because he revealed her trans identity. Because he didn't inform people paying her money earlier about real motive behind crowd-funding. By hiding actual motive he took part in scam. He wasn't journalist anymore he was criminal as She. Instead he played psychiatrist which is even worse in this case.
2. If you ask for help with ulterior motive. Everyone has the right to uncover the truth. There is no morality in this. Trans, straight, black, white, short, tall no matter who is asking for money they should deal with consequences of uncovering truth.
Suicide attempt is not result of journalist uncovering truth it is result of creating scam in first place. That attempt was sad as usual things like that are sad to people but that can't change any of above what i posted. Same with situation where journalist saved her life. That was heartwarming end of this story (since she could die) but still luck and it doesn't change what he should do in first place.
Real sad thing is that she could just say what she wanted money for and this would probably get funded either way.
2 things:
1. Journalist should be fired.
Not because he revealed her trans identity. Because he didn't inform people paying her money earlier about real motive behind crowd-funding. By hiding actual motive he took part in scam. He wasn't journalist anymore he was criminal as She. Instead he played psychiatrist which is even worse in this case.
2. If you ask for help with ulterior motive. Everyone has the right to uncover the truth. There is no morality in this. Trans, straight, black, white, short, tall no matter who is asking for money they should deal with consequences of uncovering truth.
Suicide attempt is not result of journalist uncovering truth it is result of creating scam in first place. That attempt was sad as usual things like that are sad to people but that can't change any of above what i posted. Same with situation where journalist saved her life. That was heartwarming end of this story (since she could die) but still luck and it doesn't change what he should do in first place.
Real sad thing is that she could just say what she wanted money for and this would probably get funded either way.
Just because he regrets what he did doesn't mean we have to agree with him. Fraud is a big deal, and without calling it out in its entirety there would risk of it not being found out. Either way after it would have been called out, the information would have come out regardless; better someone like a journalist, who I would hope, would get this information out to the public more responsibly then someone like anon would have.
I mean are people just assuming the truth wouldn't have come out after people figured out it was a scam? Either way, "outing someone" who clearly is committing fraud isn't the same as simply outing someone. Clearly he regrets it, but if he wouldn't have been punished for this, chances are he wouldn't be thinking this, because he wouldn't have called the whole thing out, in detail to begin with if that was the case.
RobotRocker
Member
Unfortunately, people are going to lengths to justify the reporting of the truth when it's been done so in such a reckless and dangerous manner. Even the reporting of an attempt can push people on the edge into an attempt and with one so viral and broadcast. And it's extremely reckless to start talking about the truth of the matter until it has settled and the person who made the attempt has gotten help and is talking to someone.
The ethics in question here are not the reporting truth. The ethics are reckless reporting of suicide, which can and does affect people and can create copycat suicides and increases the stigma of talking about suicide, which can prevent people from talking when simply having a talk with someone can be enough to save a life. Suicide is an incredibly devastating act which can destroy families and communities and if you are a journalist, you have a responsibility to report on it in an ethical manner and with respect.
I know people want the truth, but the matter at hand is that the more this is publicised, the more vulnerable people are put at risk. The more an attempt is sensationalised, the bigger the risk of someone reading it making an attempt gets. And it's dangerous to let it escalate in such a manner that someone may feel compelled.
I know it sounds hard as breaking news, but the thread really needs to be locked and put away till people involved have safely recovered and landed on their feet from it. Then we can discuss the other factors. Till then, our priority should be on their well being and the well being of others. And Allistair Pinsof should know that there are people for him there to talk to as well if he needs help as well.
And I know it sounds a bit trite, but anyone, ANYONE who feels they need to talk about it. There is always someone there if you need them and you shouldn't be afraid to talk about it.
https://www.afsp.org/
http://www.samaritans.org/
http://crisisline.ca/home.htm
The ethics in question here are not the reporting truth. The ethics are reckless reporting of suicide, which can and does affect people and can create copycat suicides and increases the stigma of talking about suicide, which can prevent people from talking when simply having a talk with someone can be enough to save a life. Suicide is an incredibly devastating act which can destroy families and communities and if you are a journalist, you have a responsibility to report on it in an ethical manner and with respect.
I know people want the truth, but the matter at hand is that the more this is publicised, the more vulnerable people are put at risk. The more an attempt is sensationalised, the bigger the risk of someone reading it making an attempt gets. And it's dangerous to let it escalate in such a manner that someone may feel compelled.
I know it sounds hard as breaking news, but the thread really needs to be locked and put away till people involved have safely recovered and landed on their feet from it. Then we can discuss the other factors. Till then, our priority should be on their well being and the well being of others. And Allistair Pinsof should know that there are people for him there to talk to as well if he needs help as well.
And I know it sounds a bit trite, but anyone, ANYONE who feels they need to talk about it. There is always someone there if you need them and you shouldn't be afraid to talk about it.
https://www.afsp.org/
http://www.samaritans.org/
http://crisisline.ca/home.htm
EricDiesel
Member
Why does it matter? Being born gay or transgender is not a "problem" to be "fixed". They should be allowed to live that way without being judged or persecuted.
Quoting this from earlier. If that's not enough proof that there's a large number of bigoted individuals that wish harm/death on any and all transgender people, I don't know what to tell you. This isn't some crackpot conspiracy I thought up, it's a legitimate concern.
Post 465 and 471 in this thread have the tweets and some more information:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=556930&highlight=pinsof&page=10
Thanks.
RPG Wizard
Member
I was actually more offended by his calling Chloe an "it". (The "It's a him, not a her" comment.) That, I feel, is one of the most insensitive things one can say about a trans person.
faceless007
Member
This idea that "the truth" is some pristine Aristotelian ideal that journalists must always expose and report to the fullest extent possible regardless of the consequences is hopelessly naive. Every single story written by every single journalist by every single journalistic organization in the world is a balancing act between reporting what is necessary to the story and not causing unnecessary harm that is irrelevant to the story. Every organization sits on stories all the time or outright kills them because they think the potential danger to the people involved outweighs the interest of reporting them -- you just don't hear about the ones that get put on hold. This is the dilemma they face every time they report on a sex abuse scandal or potential terrorist threat: they have to weigh the interest of reporting it against the harm that would be done by running it. And more times than you are aware, they decide in favor of the latter, or they put a story on hold until it would not be as potentially dangerous.
Journalists are not in the business of reporting every single thing they find out about every single private citizen without regard to context or circumstance in the name of "the truth." Rather, it is the journalist's (and their editor's) job to examine the entire story, properly contextualize it, and report what is necessary. If reporting a certain fact is likely to cause imminent harm to someone and it is not necessary to the story, journalists are well within their professional obligation to decide to cut it. And clearly, that's what Destructoid's editors thought, before one of their writers directly violated their orders.
Journalists are not in the business of reporting every single thing they find out about every single private citizen without regard to context or circumstance in the name of "the truth." Rather, it is the journalist's (and their editor's) job to examine the entire story, properly contextualize it, and report what is necessary. If reporting a certain fact is likely to cause imminent harm to someone and it is not necessary to the story, journalists are well within their professional obligation to decide to cut it. And clearly, that's what Destructoid's editors thought, before one of their writers directly violated their orders.
I agree they should be allowed to live that way without being judged or persecuted, but if given the choice to be born the gender that they associate with, don't you think most would take that option?
pseudomyxoma
Member
Are you actually a journalist yourself. By the way you have talked in this thread I would assume you are but you haven't outright said you are. If so for what outlet are you a journalist for?
Ok, this changes my opinion about him by a wide margin.
The moment he knew the truth he should have let people know immediately.
It was not his place to make any choices about anything else in the situation.
ding ding ding ding
The fuck? What is this, 1920?
There are some known causes involved in transgenderism (?) but it's not a birth defect.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
If he thinks he was fired for the wrong reasons ("doing his job") he's free to initiate a wrongful termination suit.
Anyone who believes in the oft-said "report the truth" nonsense, read up and sit down.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
She was blackmailing him under threat of suicide if he told anyone.....
Agreed. It was not a right thing to do, even Alistar admits that was a mistake.
But. When I first heard about this, it was in a tirade against the indieGoGo site for daring to prevent funds from a life saving surgery from reaching Chloe, and messages of various people boycotting. Seeing other people declining donations based on a lack of information is also unsettling to see, and the harm caused by Chloe was also reckless, irresponsable, and a shitty thing to do.
Two wrongs do not make a right. However I can empathize with the writer who did this, and I wish people who were as forgiving of Chloe for what she did also would find the same same sympathy for the writer.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
So I'm fuzzy on the timeline, if the indiegogo thing was cancelled before her suicide attempt, then why did he feel like exposing it was necessary? Was he worried that she would try again somewhere else?
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Pretty much my thoughts.
I mean, out of the LGBT communnity, the T part of it has it worse, by far. But what she did was wrong. And that destructoid writer should have not been fired for exposing her fraud attempt.
That being said, it would have been much better if this were to be solved behind closed doors and shut down the campaign under a pretense.
Both of them are at fault. Chloe shouldn't have chosen to scam anyone, and Allistair should have observed conduct becoming of someone in his position.
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