tarzanpuyol
Member
And destructoid is added to the Kotaku list.
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Destructoid writer let go over including relevant information in a story?
- Thread starter Goon Boon
- Start date
quote all you want. I know crazy shit happens all over the world but the first 3 are from 3rd world countries. 2 involving either getting into a fight in a bar or being a sex worker and fighting with a client. even the one in america sounds like they met online or some kind of bar and the dude flipped out when he found out she wasnt a born woman. Obviously still wrong and disgusting but that could happen to anyone. They were not literally hunted down by anyone as your claiming could happen. Your a sensationalist. In a large pond this website is a small fish.
Ya, it definitely wasn't handled the best, obviously, but fraud, to me is a very big deal that causes a ton of damage in society, even more then those dealing with GID. Unfortunately both these situations were combined... Like I said earlier he should have gone to his editor and figured out better way of going about it, but imo, not outing it would have been worse, because then anon would have done it.
I understand for some people GID is a more sensitive subject then fraud, but to a lot of use fraud is a bigger deal.
Every "case" of journalist reporting or uncovering "hard" truth has consequences. Families of people outed for corruption brakes, some people attempt suicide in case when their life falls apart. Ton of people may loose job and potentially by this attempt suicide for pointing out business which scams people and by doing so owner closes company.
That is all part of journalism. Journalist is not one responsible for this. His job is reporting facts if there is something wrong with it not playing psychiatrist without license.
EricDiesel
Member
If only to escape the persecution and torment society hurls at them constantly, maybe? But then it's society's job to become more accommodating, not the person's responsibility to change. You could use the same argument for being gay, a minority, or a woman. "Wouldn't they rather be straight/white/a man?" I guess? But that's a problematic line of thinking.
What? Let's keep it confined to this actual situation. $30,000 is not equatable to years, sometimes decades of suffering and depression.
The indiegogo campgain was ended roughly a month before her livestreamed attempted suicide. People were then blaming indiegogo for her death (before it was known that she was alive in the hospital). He then decided to speak up and tell the truth about the campaign.
List of unlawfully killed transgender people
History of violence against LGBT people in the United States
Remembering Our Dead
And these are the only ones that are reported and are known.
Don't act like it's not a big deal. It absolutely is, and it happens in the United States.
If I recall, her "birth name" is out there on the internet now I think?
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
So you wanted it to go like this?
"This person scammed you for money, she doesn't have a life threatening injury at all."
"So what is she using the money for? How do we know you're telling the truth? rabble rabble rabble"
"I can't tell you that would be an invasion of their privacy and good faith."
What the fuck?
But it isnt the same thing, people who are gay or straight dont really have biological issues with how they were born. Sure they may have issues with their sociology as to them being ashamed or whatever for liking the same sex, but GID is something that requires a lot of therapy and possibly drugs to help, which a lot of people cant afford. You cant just leave people with GID alone and expect them to "figure it all out"(like you can with a lot of gay people, that I personally know) so to speak. They(GID) need help to figure it all out.
Still though, regardless, this does not relegate them for being called out for fraud different from everyone else, imo. However, calling anyone out in a way that isn't...sensitive to the situation isnt the smartest thing to do.
I really don't see why this would be a problem
The onus is then on her to tell people what's up, as it should be
Exactly. People kept demanding an explanation from Indiegogo about why they canceled the project. "It was a scam" wasn't enough for people.
All while Indiegogo gets shit on. Great.
EricDiesel
Member
In my opinion I'm not being sensational, you're being willfully ignorant.
And what does this website have to do with the post I linked? I don't follow.
Remember. People got their money back. As long as IndieGoGo was honest, there'd be nobody really getting shit on.
I remember reading the thread on neogaf about the Project Zomboid devs offering any money made from their the game to go to help Chole. Then the Thomas was Alone dev offered to do the same. But for me it was a little to vague on what exactly she was dying from, and that a Doctor would actually let someone die just because they couldn't afford the sugery upfront.
I wanted to donate but I wanted zero of my money going to someone who would try to scam or lie to people helping them. I would have donated if she was upfront about what she wanted them money for.
Unfortunately the reality is scaming people and colleagues was more safe to her, then to come out as a transgendered person and ask for help. Which I think should be the takeaway from all of this. It wasn't that she was a morally reprehensible person but that she wanted help and the truth was a lot more scary then scamming people. That is incredibly sad.
I wanted to donate but I wanted zero of my money going to someone who would try to scam or lie to people helping them. I would have donated if she was upfront about what she wanted them money for.
Unfortunately the reality is scaming people and colleagues was more safe to her, then to come out as a transgendered person and ask for help. Which I think should be the takeaway from all of this. It wasn't that she was a morally reprehensible person but that she wanted help and the truth was a lot more scary then scamming people. That is incredibly sad.
tfur
Member
Please. Get over yourself.
Again, this is not some complicated nuanced unfathomable story. Who is asking for "absolute journalistic truth?"
How about some simple integrity of truth to tell the story of why someone decided to defraud people. Please, don't keep repeating the "its too complicated" and "its naive to want the truth" agenda. There is no value in either of those notions in regards to this story.
Sorry, but one person doesn't get more careful treatment then someone who hurt multiple people with fraud. Sure the over all damage to each individual isnt the same(in this instance), but the over all damage is inexcusable. Fraud ruins people, creates sociologically issues in many, and can also lead to depression when people realized they were "had". I've already mentioned that this person clearly needs help, but fraud is fraud, and it needs to be dealt with harshly, special with how pervasive it is becoming in society and how many people at the top look away if they "like" the cause.
While the person dealing with GID probably has had a hard time in life, taking advantage of peoples generosity and charity, specially with the tool the person used to get the support is something that shouldn't be excused, period. Yes, the person should get help, but by no means should the fraud be downplayed, imo.
But at that point it's independently confirmed by multiple sources, so anyone reasonable would be willing to accept that explanation
Irrational people are going to hate on indiegogo whether the truth is out or not
This is a shit move on Destructoid's part. Sure, outing her is a dick move, but it was the key motivating factor in a $30,000 fraud case that was close to the indie game developing community.
"Well, she's stolen thirty thousand dollars from you saps, but I can't tell you why she would. It's a secret!" is a much shittier and less informed headline than "Indie developer steals $30,000 for gender reassignment surgery."
If people had their money taken under false pretenses they at least have the right to know why it was taken from them.
"Well, she's stolen thirty thousand dollars from you saps, but I can't tell you why she would. It's a secret!" is a much shittier and less informed headline than "Indie developer steals $30,000 for gender reassignment surgery."
If people had their money taken under false pretenses they at least have the right to know why it was taken from them.
If the only reason transgendered people want to change genders is because of societal persecution then you are correct. However I suspect that is not the case. The desire to have a normal sexual relationship with the opposite gender or to bear children could also be strong reasons.
umm well this apparently real threat to her life, where is it? the only people talking about this are on sites like neogaf or maybe gamefaqs. and that means nothing, literally in the sea of all the people in the world and including those who would actively seek out someone like chloe, neogaf doesnt comprise of enough people to include someone in that group most likely
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
"Please go to Reddit or any other site where the information is easily and readily available anyway."
Agreed, that's pretty much what Allistair said in the message quoted in the first post as well. Even so, in was in the spirit of clarifying an issue that because of a lack of information was potentially causing harm to donation sites. Was it wrong? Yes. Do I think he should be fired for it? No.
It would have saved his job at the very least. Destructoid had cause to suspend him, and given my past experience with seeing colleagues breach journalistic ethics or good conduct, he will most likely be fired.
EricDiesel
Member
It's also a lot more insensitive and reckless, which is why people are upset. He had no right to out her gender orientation.
Also calling it "a dick move" is a huge understatement.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
I'm starting to think the absolute best way to handle this would have been to post an initial story simply stating that fraud was proven, without going further. Then, if there's a shitstorm of doubt that the story is valid, possibly then should he have gone into specifics. But I have a feeling that people just needed to know that they were being defrauded and they would have accepted that without getting into more.
And BTW, has anything good ever come out of Twitter? It just seems like the quickest way to flame out or get people to despise you.
faceless007
Member
Lest anyone still try to paint Pinsof's actions as an act of brave heroic journalism, please keep in mind that he only decided to report it:
Pinsof's timing is possibly the worst aspect of this fiasco. He didn't report it while the fundraiser was ongoing, when it arguably was in the public interest. He didn't wait some time when Sagal might have been better-equipped to handle it. Doing it right now, solely due to the suicide attempt, is probably the worst possible time he could have chosen. He can't claim it was a pressing matter or urgent interest because the fundraisers were done, the story was already two months old. He can't claim that he did it to help her because, well, that's idiotic.
Again, nothing good whatsoever came of reporting this the way he did, when he did it, and not a single person benefited from it. There may have potentially been a responsible, ethical way to do so, at some point, but this was absolutely the opposite of that.
- After becoming directly involved in the story and no longer able to report on it objectively
- After the fundraiser had been cancelled so nobody had actually been defrauded
- Right after Sagal attempted suicide when she would undoubtedly be in a very vulnerable state
- On Twitter
- Against the direct orders of his editors
- Without giving Sagal any advance warning that he would be reporting it (yes, this does happen in journalism)
- Without asking for a comment from her side of the story (Journalism 101)
- Because of Sagal's suicide attempt
Pinsof's timing is possibly the worst aspect of this fiasco. He didn't report it while the fundraiser was ongoing, when it arguably was in the public interest. He didn't wait some time when Sagal might have been better-equipped to handle it. Doing it right now, solely due to the suicide attempt, is probably the worst possible time he could have chosen. He can't claim it was a pressing matter or urgent interest because the fundraisers were done, the story was already two months old. He can't claim that he did it to help her because, well, that's idiotic.
Again, nothing good whatsoever came of reporting this the way he did, when he did it, and not a single person benefited from it. There may have potentially been a responsible, ethical way to do so, at some point, but this was absolutely the opposite of that.
Crowdfunding is not typically described as "reasonable." In almost every major case I've seen, people dig for every detail.
As I said before, I just think that's really the nature of crowdfunding. You get money from people, but in return they demand maximum transparency.
It's unfortunate how this played out for all involved, but I think looking at it honestly, lots of people would not have been satisfied without an explanation. And I've seen that time and time again, in countless crowdfunding efforts - whether it's reading Sarkeesian's master's thesis and dissecting it, researching all of Susan Wilson's family and financial ties, or Precusor Games/Silicon Knights' legal issues.
I'm biased here on multiple levels but he brought this on himself. With the times we are in especially in a corporate environment if you don't watch what you say or do when it comes LGBT it means your job.
There are ways of doing things without outing those who basically should be control of the when and why of that. As others said it's his job to do this right and doubt most here are going to agree on a certain level he did. Incompetence and insensitivity do not make for good partners.
There are ways of doing things without outing those who basically should be control of the when and why of that. As others said it's his job to do this right and doubt most here are going to agree on a certain level he did. Incompetence and insensitivity do not make for good partners.
Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Every scammed person has right to press charges if they want to and Indiegogo must inform people about actual reason.
If they would do that people would dig until they would know about this because they have every right to do so.
But people blamed Indiegogo for the suicide attempt and wanted to boycott.
So you're saying people already knew why she would run a scam?
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
I'm still erring on the side of "it's not journalism" and "he's not a journalist".
But if his boss told him explicitly to leave it alone and he did it anyway, then yeah, I suppose getting fired is the next step in this process.
If he had to say something, it should have been as outlined above. "It's a scam, I've confirmed, but due to the nature of the events I can not comment anymore." If no one believed him then fuck em. They're not entitled to anything else.
faceless007
Member
No money was stolen, and no one was defrauded. The fundraisers were cancelled and no money changed hands (at least, not to Sagal's).
EricDiesel
Member
Did you ignore this post? What does this evidence have to do with game forums? If you have a point I'm legitimately not following. Are you trying to say transgender issues are only being discussed here and on gamefaqs? Or what? This story doesn't exist in a video game forum vacuum. There are larger societal implications here.
I'm not talking about Indiegogo and haven't been for the entire time. Read.
Radicals be radicals. Although correct me if I'm wrong, but it was known to be a scam back then? I'm not quite clear on the early timeline.
i still have the right to know details if someone ATTEMPTED to commit fraud on me and my money
just because it didnt end up working for her
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
But say the story never broke and she attempted another campaign after her recovery. He wouldn't be able to sit on the story at that point.
He had every "right" just that right cost him his job(and the company that hired him can deal with it however they want as well, but the price will be backlash one way or the other). I'm sorry, but if you are willing to steal peoples money, lie about a operation that if you don't have will kill you and not be honest, you run the risk of being outed. Frankly her true intentions SHOULD have been outed, but it obviously could have been handled a lot better. Still though, someone willing to do this deserves very little special treatment, imo. Should the out have been handled better? Yes; but outing her after all this is definitely not something I hold against him, just the way in which he did it that wasn't as informed about the situation as he should have been when he did it.
Absoludacrous
Member
It's part of journalism. If that's what she was using the funds for, then it needs to be said. If the funds were going to some other kind of scam, then no, nothing about her gender needed to be said and would be considered in poor taste.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/us/politics/jesse-jackson-jr-charged-in-misuse-of-campaign-money.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/21/report-communities-used-federal-stimulus-money-to-lobby-for-higher-taxes/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-15/singapore-pastor-misused-funds-for-wife-court-told.html
All examples of misused funds, and in each case it is explicitly stated where the money went to instead. You can't just write half a story.
It's unfortunate in this case that her gender became part of the story, but she put herself in that position, not the journalist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/us/politics/jesse-jackson-jr-charged-in-misuse-of-campaign-money.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/21/report-communities-used-federal-stimulus-money-to-lobby-for-higher-taxes/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-15/singapore-pastor-misused-funds-for-wife-court-told.html
All examples of misused funds, and in each case it is explicitly stated where the money went to instead. You can't just write half a story.
It's unfortunate in this case that her gender became part of the story, but she put herself in that position, not the journalist.
You don't have to be successful to commit fraud. She did not cancel the crowd funding, it was cut. It would have gone through had they not done anything.
The bottom 2 are based on him being blackmailed. There are reasons he did what he did, to try to make it so simple and paint him in awful light is pretty ignorant.
That being said, his boss should never have told him not to post his "findings" in the first place. He should have requested he remove his "birth name" and what he was using the money for.
pseudomyxoma
Member
So you are a journalist then? Not sure why you couldn't have just outright said that earlier
It's unfortunate he got too close to the story and did not recuse himself like a professional would have.
Indiegogo cancelled the project and said that it was a scam. People were confused and wanted to know why. All IGG responded with was that they have security algorithm that detects fraudulent projects. With nothing to go from did some people think that IGG system might be wrong and actually just terminated a legitimate project and then called for a boycott (and according to the OPs interview even made death threats towards IGG)
And radicals will be radicals is a pretty shitty argument. Or can you show me that those "radicals" are still calling for a IGG boycott?
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
This would be doing the same thing without explicitly saying it.
Because I don't feel like giving people ammo for a pissing match about my credibility? I'm not beholden to answer you.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
Why is it when everyone else commits fraud it is told where the money was going but in this case its wrong. Why do you think this criminal should get special protection simply due to sexual orientation?
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