diffusionx
Gold Member
shidoshi! She put herself out there. She lied about where the money would go. Nobody was out there like "lol she's a trans guys" for no reason.
I'm not sure this was the deserved outcome, but it was an inevitable one.
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Destructoid writer let go over including relevant information in a story?
- Thread starter Goon Boon
- Start date
shidoshi! She put herself out there. She lied about where the money would go. Nobody was out there like "lol she's a trans guys" for no reason.
I'm not sure this was the deserved outcome, but it was an inevitable one.
No he didn't, she attempted suicide prior to him posting this.
Her attempted suicide was the reason he posted this.
That doesn't make it right or anything, but people shouldn't be saying that her attempted suicide was a result of his actions.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Exactly, I don't get why people think the core of the story should be left out just because it is a touchy subject.
KojiKnight
Member
If this was on a real news situation no one would have gotten fired... The poor guy is risking his entire life being destroyed because he outed a liar and a scam artist. And that is what she was. "But but but she tried to kill herself!" it doesn't change the truth of the matter. The guy wasn't trying to commit an act of malice, but I'm sorry, when you outright lie to people to SCAM THEM for money, you lose all right to any sort of moral high ground.
No matter HOW this story ends, it's a no win for ANYONE involved... but there is no reason why someone just reporting what happened should be fired.
No matter HOW this story ends, it's a no win for ANYONE involved... but there is no reason why someone just reporting what happened should be fired.
Under normal circumstances, perhaps. But this is not really about "outing" her. That is a bi-product of revealing that she wasn't telling the truth and was misleading people donating money to her about what it was for.
This really has nothing to do with her being trans or outing her other than the fact that that is related to the story of how she was misleading people.
Tylahedras
Banned
When outing a liar and a cheat causes you to lose everything you own to lawsuits people will not do it. That's not right. That's not freedom of speech.
When Republicans regulate abortion out of existence they circumvent the legal protections offered by the supreme court, but it's perfectly legal. And a situation like this where journalists are not free to tell the truth about someone like this because of ancillary issues like lawsuits is just as wrong as if congress passed a law preventing it.
You cannot have a free society if people cannot speak their mind and call out bullshit. Whether it's because it's illegal or simply because it results in equivalent consequences.
Which would you rather? 1 year in prison or losing your home and job?
You're wrong. He could've omitted that she was trans (and let's not forget he outed her by intentionally misgendering her of all things) and people would've speculated, and maybe SRS would've come up, but a lot of people would think the scam is the same reason for most other scams: greed.
The circumstances surrounding the scam are for Chloe and Chloe alone to reveal.
All of this, of course, is ignoring that he disregarded the fact that he was told not to report it. The guy needs sacking. He handled this situation with the sensitivity of a jackhammer.
I completely agree. People deserve to know what their money is going toward. If you don't want to be outed as a transgendered person, then stick to a group that's supportive of that lifestyle and understands the importance of you not being outed and have THEM fund it. Don't drag another group into it and con them into funding something other than what you're asking for. I understand the severity of the journalist's actions, but I'm also supportive of the journalist's actions because he at least told people what the funds were really for.
Terrible situation all-around. While what she did was clearly wrong, he didn't have to go about the situation in the way that he did. The Indiegogo campaign was already cancelled, so further exposing her personal information through Twitter was completely unnecessary. Yes, she had fraudulent aims with her campaign, but that doesn't excuse some of the tweets that he posted, which were completely unprofessional and out of line. With that said, no one is in the right here, no matter what the intentions were.
This is basically the perfect storm for a piece like this. Having worked in journalism, there are things that happen that are totally out of your hands. Reactions you can't control. Likewise, there are moral implications for reporting on a sensitive matter as this. You have to be especially careful because as others stated, transgender people are discriminated against and sometimes targeted for attack. Personally, I don't believe anyone in the video game 'journalism' community should come anywhere near a story like this. They should have considered the witch hunts places like Reddit relish participating in. They should have considered the immature commenters who choose not to understand someone who has a transgender identity.
If it's true that the writer was warned off of including the gender identity by his editor and included it anyway, that's insubordination flat. Cause. If the story was cleared by the editor, then it makes for a trickier issue.
But let's face it, this is simply a tragic mess. It's a shame that the person felt so desperate as to scam unwitting people and attempted suicide over being outed, it's a shame that a writer's career is basically over, and it's a shame in 2013 some can't choose to sympathize with someone who has trouble understanding their own identity.
If it's true that the writer was warned off of including the gender identity by his editor and included it anyway, that's insubordination flat. Cause. If the story was cleared by the editor, then it makes for a trickier issue.
But let's face it, this is simply a tragic mess. It's a shame that the person felt so desperate as to scam unwitting people and attempted suicide over being outed, it's a shame that a writer's career is basically over, and it's a shame in 2013 some can't choose to sympathize with someone who has trouble understanding their own identity.
I'm sure there are people actively hunting but that doesn't need to be the case to show how terrible this shit is. From the wiki linked above.
- Demetrio Apaza Mayta was tortured, beaten, burned, and stabbed to death by a mob of hundreds of people in El Alto, Bolivia for no reason other than her gender identity. The police claimed that they had no leads and arrested no suspects, although the murder took place in broad daylight.
- Thapelo Makutle, a 23-year-old who was also known as 'Queen Bling', was an LGBT activist who got into an argument with men regarding her sexuality at a bar in Kuruman, South Africa. The men followed her home, broke into her apartment and killed her by slitting her throat. She was also mutilated; her genitals were cut off and put into her mouth.
- Monchi de Jesús Crisóstomo de León was a sex worker who was murdered in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The suspected perpetrator, a 24 year-old client, explained that he killed her in a fight that started after he realized that “she wasn’t a woman”.
- Angie Zapata was a trans woman who was murdered on 17 July 2008, in Greeley, Colorado. Her death was the first ever case involving a transgender victim to be ruled a hate crime. Colorado is one of only eleven states that protect transgender victims under hate crime laws in the United States. Allen Andrade, who learned eighteen-year-old Angie was transgender after meeting her and spending several days with her, beat her to death with a fire extinguisher. In his arrest affidavit, Andrade calls Zapata "it", and during his trial a tape was played of a phone conversation in which he told his girl friend "gay things need to die". Andrade's attorneys used a gay panic defense, implying that Andrade suddenly "snapped" when he learned Zapata was not born biologically female. On 22 April 2009, Andrade was found guilty of first degree murder, hate crimes, and car/ID theft. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Agreed. I respect people's privacy and I sympathize with the situition transgender people are in. But I don't think his story was about her being trans. That was a bi-product of revealing how the campaign as misleading it's contributors.
And yes people do DESERVE to know the truth of what they are donating towards just for the very intergity of the concept of charity and donations transparency is necessary. When you start collecting donations for something, you are the one that are putting yourself out there regarding the thing you are collecting money for.
If she were using the money for something else, even if she were using it to buy some fancy sports car, the fact that she was trans would have nothing to do with it and should have been kept private and respected. But the fact that it is directly the thing that the donation drive was about means that people deserve to know what the money is for.
It's called decency. There are ways to report the story and be honest about it without outing her as trans. Allistair Pinsof took to the worst means possible (social media) instead of letting a group more suitable handle it.
There was no reason to out her after her suicide attempt. He should have gone to the police as soon as he was being blackmailed, not to social media.
Because it's not a well understood situation, and people are hostile. Extremely hostile.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Again other than contacting her school and such for counseling and welfair I don't see why if it got to the point of blackmail he didn't contact the police on the threat of blackmail as well as the fraud. Then let the police take it from there.
Honestly he should have just gone to the police and she should be under full investigation/trial for it all.
Honestly he should have just gone to the police and she should be under full investigation/trial for it all.
OverBlood 3
Banned
Don't dare to do your job.
Ravensmash
Member
Actually, does anyone have any articles from the wider media which resulted in a subject being outed due to the core of the story?
I'm trying to think of a few but having no luck at recalling - I know there's some, will edit if I find them.
Nonetheless, this is a real tragic mess at the moment and I really wish both parties well.
I'm trying to think of a few but having no luck at recalling - I know there's some, will edit if I find them.
Nonetheless, this is a real tragic mess at the moment and I really wish both parties well.
I would say of course not in a normal situation ........ unfortunately Chloe has linked her personal life with a public crime, the attempt to fund a procedure in relation to her gender status via public fraud unfortunately means that she is in a position where what would normally be solely her business and private has been brought out into the public domain via her actions.
In this instance details pertaining to the crime can not be suppressed due to her status as transsexual, people who are gay or straight would have all details pertaining to a crime like this brought out into the public domain, it is the same case for someone who is transsexual.
I understand that there is violence and hate directed towards people who are transgendered but to say her life is now in mortal danger is overblown at the very least and at the very worst creates the myth that all people who are transgendered are walking around under death threat, this is simply not the case.
This is basically how I feel. Unfortunate all around.
I'm thinking that if people want to respect her outing, she shouldn't tell a lie? I don't actually support the writer here, but the fact is that she lied about the campaign, and this is one of the consequences of lying--when the truth is out, it's not going to be pretty, whatever it is.
I never knew any trans, nor do I know any problem they had so I might be ignorant here.
I never knew any trans, nor do I know any problem they had so I might be ignorant here.
If you want to keep your personal life private, you probably shouldn't try to commit fraud.
But committing fraud does mean you lose the right to decisions like that. In the vast majority of cases you are completely right but there's no way you can knowingly deceive others and still expect the same level of privacy of your average person.
You consider transsexualism a disorder?
Actually it doesn't. Contrary to popular belief, criminals do not lose all their rights like that.
Bad choice of words on my part, and I edited it. "Gender identity disorder" was the term for it in the DSM-IV, and that's what I'm used to. The upcoming DSM-V however replaced it with "Gender dysphoria."
Well, I called this.
No one would be standing up for you because you'd be granted that privacy implicitly through your privilege.
So then you're agreeing with me. You don't want it to be journalism. Because journalism is telling the story. And if the story is the money was used for a sex change operation, that's pretty effing relevant information.
Your argument is it's nobody's business. And with this I'll agree. Until you commit outright fraud. Then people have a right to known WTF just happened. It becomes a story and you lose the expectation of privacy.
Actually it doesn't. Contrary to popular belief, criminals do not lose all their rights like that.
And what right is that? Which right is this in the Constitution? Because newspapers violate this every day then. They constantly include the why in their stories. No matter what it is.
StarCreator
Member
The "outing" article was on the author's personal Twitter account. It was never posted to Destructoid itself.
I won't do number, because you can search the thread for them, but I'll try to explain.
She is already suicidal, if she lives in a place that doesn't accept her lifestyle, this possiblity increases significantly.
Trans people are particularly targeted by violent bigots, not necessarily organised hate groups (like the KKK or something) because they're so far from being accepted that most of the time all it takes are groups of "normal" men who happens to cross her path and decide that she living the way she lives is provocation enough to warrant a death penalty there and then.
The LGBT community still is very much a target of hate violence and transgerder people, in particular, even more so. Thus, outing someone is not the same as simply protecting her privacy because privacy is nice and cozy, but is is protecting her privacy because protecting her privacy is protecting her from abuse, both physical and mental.
I don't even Destructoid.
She tries to scam people by saying that she will die if she doesn't get the money (fucking disgusting since there are so many people out there legitimately in a position like that). She blackmails Alistair saying she will kill herself if he tells anyone. He reveals the truth AFTER she tries to commit suicide and yet he's in trouble?
It's not like he did it just because she's a trans, he did it because it was morally right to let everyone know why she needed the money and how she was scamming everyone. It blows my mind how people think he's in the wrong. It's not like he could tell everyone it was a scam without explaining why (she's a trans).
She tries to scam people by saying that she will die if she doesn't get the money (fucking disgusting since there are so many people out there legitimately in a position like that). She blackmails Alistair saying she will kill herself if he tells anyone. He reveals the truth AFTER she tries to commit suicide and yet he's in trouble?
It's not like he did it just because she's a trans, he did it because it was morally right to let everyone know why she needed the money and how she was scamming everyone. It blows my mind how people think he's in the wrong. It's not like he could tell everyone it was a scam without explaining why (she's a trans).
There's journalism, and there's gossip. Journalism is reporting the fraud, outing her is gossip.
You don't need gossip to have journalism. Once you understand that, you appreciate why outing her is such a stupid thing, especially because it isn't necessary to the the story of the scam. Why she scammed people isn't relevant; it's only there because people are nosey. All we need to know is that she tried to scam people. That's it.
Absolute nonsense.
BronsonLee
Member
As sad as it sounds, there is no such thing a personal social media account anymore.
Xenon
Member
Had she not tried to defraud people for money I would agree with you. But since her trans status was directly involved with the fraud in question she lost that right. I understand what you're saying but it is not some iron clad rule that needs to be followed regardless of the circumstances.
Are you being sarcastic?
Domstercool
Member
Not if he was going to use the money to pay for illegal drugs or whatever.
It's what Chloe was using the money for that brought it to light. Sex would have never been brought up in question if the thievery was related to using it to buy drugs, or a new house. etc.
Sadly, it came up because of the topic of the lies told to the public.
Actually it doesn't. Contrary to popular belief, criminals do not lose all their rights like that.
Bad choice of words on my part, and I edited it. "Gender identity disorder" was the term for it in the DSM-IV, and that's what I'm used to. The upcoming DSM-V however replaced it with "Gender dysphoria."
There is no "right" to be closeted and for people not to talk about your sexuality. That nomenclature has no place in this conversation. Maybe you could say people should be "respectful" and not talk about people's sexuality, but it has nothing to do with "rights."
Perhaps I should have phrased that you won't need anyone to stand up for you. That's more accurate.
Regardless of what she did her gender identity isn't the public domain. People acting like outing her as trans* is the same as outing that someone smokes or doesn't like pizza or voted a certain way or like it's at all like anything else need to stop.
Ah, I see. Destructoid still has grounds then. Allistair represents their brand and if they take issue with an opinion or personal piece that he wrote that can be seen by the public sphere, they're within their rights to suspend him pending investigation or review. It's unfortunate that it all went down this way, but it's a risk you take when reporting on a very sensitive issue.
KojiKnight
Member
So... if someone commits a scam you think people shouldn't report it if it includes gender identity issues? Sorry... I don't buy it. You can't cover up the truth because it's unpleasant... If she didn't want the attention, she shouldn't have A: Pointed a giant spotlight at herself and B: Lied to get people to give her money. There were other ways she SHOULD have handled it if she couldn't afford the surgery but really wanted it.
This was a poorly conceived scam that blew up in her face, nothing more nothing less. This wasn't a witch hunt, she was causing financial harm to people who believed the best and WANTED the best for her.
Delusibeta
Banned
The problem I have with this argument is that it already was public assumption that she was transsexual, and violent bigots only really need assumptions (see bigots killing Sikhs in the belief they were Muslim, for example). I'm not sure what the practical difference is.
hahaha
What the fuck are you saying now? This has nothing to do with that. I don't have any clue why just because the said perpetrator of a scam was both transsexual and suicidal makes everyone go "icky icky poo poo" and let it slide. The most immature shit I've seen in a while. You want equality? Then it doesn't matter if the person was straight, gay, bi, trans, whatever.
Well, I guess not everything about the DSM-V is worrying; it's been portrayed as the satanic verses in the media, bred in the dark, evil catacombs of pharmaceutical companies. I find the name easier to stomach.Actually it doesn't. Contrary to popular belief, criminals do not lose all their rights like that.
Bad choice of words on my part, and I edited it. "Gender identity disorder" was the term for it in the DSM-IV, and that's what I'm used to. The upcoming DSM-V however replaced it with "Gender dysphoria."
EDIT:
I should try to see further than the end of my nose, I mean my circle of ultra-liberal hipster friends and acquaintances. Such thinking seem so far from reality.
BronsonLee
Member
Also to everyone saying "she lost all rights to privacy after she committed fraud"
1: No
2: I'll go out on a limb and say the only reason she didn't outright say "it's for this" is because of this exact situation. It isn't accepted yet. Not even close. If we were a few years in the future, I bet it'd be different.
1: No
2: I'll go out on a limb and say the only reason she didn't outright say "it's for this" is because of this exact situation. It isn't accepted yet. Not even close. If we were a few years in the future, I bet it'd be different.
John Rabbit
Banned
i can't find the thread about her that was on GAF a few weeks back, but was it all assumption? people were talking like her being trans was a known thing. i'm particularly confused.
No what you stated was a lie, if you commit a public crime, especially defrauding the public of money then your right to privacy, especially when the details of your private life are directly related to the fraud / crime become forfeit ........ wether you are white / black / gay / straight / trans.
Lets not start with this crap.
Littlegator
Banned
Guys, they should have respected nir privacy and instead ran a story revealing simply that "the surgery was in fact not for life threatening metal poisoning but instead for a different surgery that isn't life threatening."
Oh, wait, that's right. This is real life, and leaving out a core part of the story is... stupid.
That said, his tweets weren't really acceptable for someone as a member of the press.
EDIT: In regards to the topic of privacy: She has her right to privacy so far as she keeps things private. If she has told someone her information, or has in any way made that information public, there's nothing protecting that privacy. People aren't required by law to keep secrets.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Oh and for everyone to keep secrets super secret.
Oh, wait, that's right. This is real life, and leaving out a core part of the story is... stupid.
That said, his tweets weren't really acceptable for someone as a member of the press.
EDIT: In regards to the topic of privacy: She has her right to privacy so far as she keeps things private. If she has told someone her information, or has in any way made that information public, there's nothing protecting that privacy. People aren't required by law to keep secrets.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Oh and for everyone to keep secrets super secret.
Sorry, but that's a flimsy strawman. It doesn't matter if it was in the future: Point is, she lied about her intentions. Does it make it okay he gave the real reason? That's for you to personally decide in your own way, but the fact remains: She lied about her intentions and (personally) deserves the backlash she gets over it. If she was upfront about it instead of a long-term con pity-story, I don't think the backlash over that intention would be as bad.
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