assurdum
Banned
Because it's purposely designed to haven't?
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DF: All Developers Extremely Happy With PS5 Development But Not All Are Happy With XSX Development
- Thread starter Agnostic2020
- Start date
El Pistolero
Banned
It would have been revisionist if he had implied that the PS3 enjoyed the same ease of development and tools maturity that both the first and fourth PS had had, especially compared to their direct competition. Nothing he wrote could be intellectually contradicted. You know...intellectually...
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geordiemp
Member
I dont agree, your stating it as fact, prove it. Show us the power differential if there is any, as its not just about TF.
I think they will be similar, one has more TF, one has faster caches and L2 to L0 cache bandwidths to feed CU shader arrays on silicon.
The decider on how close they are will be in how games run.
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assurdum
Banned
You lol about Matt but he said logic stuff where your post is full of presumption and wishes than concrete evidence. You are selling a 20% of more raw power on the paper as something which send undoubtedly notable higher level of performance which isn't it how such things work.
I mean not need to be an engineer to understand it, just to read something here and there with the equivalent pc stuff
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I think a lot of people misinterpret what a bottleneck is. 'No bottleneck' doesn't mean that there is no limit it just means that something isn't limiting something else capable of more. It's just another way of saying it's 'balanced'. The literal bottleneck is where the flow is restricted. Had the neck not been there you would get the flow that the bottle allows.
So if everything is at max then you can say there is no bottleneck even though that max may be at different levels for different systems.
All of it is kind of hogwash though because it usually depends on what you're trying to do in your code. I refuse to believe there is a perfectly balanced system.
El Pistolero
Banned
I was asking theoretically, not necessarily specifically about the PS5, but thanks for your time and trying to answer.
My question wasn't regarding any doubt but was just exploring a scenario where variable clocks could also improve performance in regards to a bottleneck when power limited.
In my own experience, I have been able to overclock my own CPU to get more FPS in certain game titles because my system bottleneck is my weak CPU so overclocking DID help with my bottleneck, but according to what oldergamer told me earlier I must be mistaken.
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assurdum
Banned
Ok now I'm confuse. Hardware limits are a totally different matter than bottleneck. The hell has to do a bottleneck to the hardware limits? I'm not English but there aren't any relation with the 2 words in the semantic.
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assurdum
Banned
Well pc it's a complete different scenario. Engineering an hardware with variable frequency it's not exactly as to fix performance in a pc rig for personal purpose.
What I'm trying to say is that some people think that "has no bottleneck" means "unlimited power" and therefore is impossible when it actually just means a balanced system where everything is running at its full capability. Nothing slows down something else.
Is this what you meant by bottleneck?
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assurdum
Banned
Of course. But I thought it was obvious.
It's my understanding that a bottleneck occurs when a system is limited by a single component, preventing other hardware from reaching its potential.
By that definition, my computer's bottleneck is my CPU in most games but if I only had a 300w PSU then it would be my largest bottleneck instead.
The PS5 100% has a bottleneck otherwise it would not have to downclock when its workload gets too much. I'm guessing the bottleneck is its PSU and/or cooling capacity.
My argument is that SmarftShift helps when the GPU is limited by power and the CPU is underutilized, thus helping with a power bottleneck. If it did not, then what is the purpose of SmartShift? This seems obvious to me so I want to know what I'm missing since I'm being told I'm wrong.
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assurdum
Banned
I thought you are talking just about the ps5. I don't know how works on pc but I knew mostly it was used to prevent overheating? Especially on portable. I don't know if it maximizes the performance.
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assurdum
Banned
Missed the first part of yours post.
I wouldn't call it a bottleneck in an hardware something it allows to reach the higher frequency possible in an amd gpu.
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Stating that it's 'important to Sony' that their dev kits are easy to use and attempting to illustrate that by listing a history that excludes the PS3 is revisionist.It would have been revisionist if he had implied that the PS3 enjoyed the same ease of development and tools maturity that both the first and fourth PS had had, especially compared to their direct competition. Nothing he wrote could be intellectually contradicted. You know...intellectually...
If it's the word 'revisionist' that is causing you problems, then you may simply refer to it as 'deeply misleading'. I'll leave it up to you.
Shmunter
Member
That 6gig of slow speed ram on XsX has potential to slow the system way below PS5. Either that or less detail in XsX to limit to the 10gig.
It’s all good and well to say only CPU will use the slow ram. However, in a unified system the same set of data is often worked on by cpu & GPU; developer freedom. Seemingly, the XsX setup more reflects a PC, where data is expected to be copied around. This will lead to significant performance barriers on the system.
Situation needs to be acknowledged. Print, bury.
It’s all good and well to say only CPU will use the slow ram. However, in a unified system the same set of data is often worked on by cpu & GPU; developer freedom. Seemingly, the XsX setup more reflects a PC, where data is expected to be copied around. This will lead to significant performance barriers on the system.
Situation needs to be acknowledged. Print, bury.
SplunkyMunkey
Member
Any game can be up and running on a console. Just look at the game running u can clearly tell alot has taken a hit to get the game running
shenmue mugen
Member
I don't get what the problem is with XSX development. Same CPU, GPU and SSD based I/O.
Shmunter
Member
Because non specific SDK, and likely difficult ram setup on XsXS. Blue PS5 games, red Xbox games....
SplunkyMunkey
Member
What u got look into as what shmunter said u have to look at the software cpu or the gpu or even the ram setup. I heard its mainly the development software kit but also u look into the hardware aswell both x & s have seperate ram pools and trying to fit it all into the ram pool. Even thou ps5 is unified and around 14gig 2 play with thats equivalent probably to series x 10 gig but easier as its not split possibly? Tbh everyone can argue all they want lol let the games do the talking and when digital foundry compares
El Pistolero
Banned
What is misleading is you having to jump backwards over the PS4 to land on the PS3 spot...Russian gymnasts would be proud...
Physiognomonics
Member
It's a game designed to run on a 1.3tf machine with 5GB or ram. It's obviously going to be easy to port it on XSS. Cross-gen games won't have trouble running on XSS. The problem will arise when developers will use all those> 13GB or ram available on XSX and PS5. They'll have to make cuts (optimize) in order to fit everything in only 7.5GB on XSS.
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Armorian
Banned
...because 4K vs 1440p. No point having the super high-res textures.
SplunkyMunkey
Member
Btw its 10gig for series x and 14gig for ps5
Armorian
Banned
You can see high quality textures even in 1080p, this console barely has more RAM than PS4/X1, many things are not going to have "next gen" quality.
MasterCornholio
Member
It's like some people forgot about the Unreal Engine 5 demo.
PlayStation 5 Unreal Engine 5 demo ran at 1440p 30FPS with dynamic res
Epic's big new tech demo required massive GPU horsepower to pull off and was able to hit a semi-consistent 1440p 30FPS.
www.tweaktown.com
High quality textures can make a game look better even at lower resolutions. It's why it be important to have plenty of ram even if your gaming at 1440P.
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Shmunter
Member
Pretty much
IbelieveInGenerations
Banned
I'll Just take TheGreatWhiteShark words as gospel, cause he's clearly unbiased and Very knowledgable guy that has Very reliable sources like BLUE and TimDog.
Edit: Just got a call from all developers friend, the great VFXVeteran, confirming everything is true concernning ps5 version of re8
Edit: Just got a call from all developers friend, the great VFXVeteran, confirming everything is true concernning ps5 version of re8
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geordiemp
Member
RGT rumours that RDNA2 has extra compression so even the RDNA2 PC card competing with 3080 only needs 256 bit bus supposedly, and memory bandwidth for RDNA2 is less of an issue rumoured, but lets see. The other rumour is PC big navi will use a larger L2 cache so bandwidth to memory is even less factor.
We dont know ps5 L2 cache for GPU or how its balanced to make full judghement on memory bandwidth, XSX increased it to 5MB but thats because the its a wider memory bus.....so just scaled.
One of the bottlenecks in the Cerny / naughty dog patent is when vertex shaders are sent to pixel shaders, so they come up with a compression technique to remove it for more GPU efficieny, is the patent in the hardware, i dont know but likely..
Cache scrubbers, faster caches and design to avoid cache misses as the further you have to go back from L0 to L2 the slower the GPU is, it is all these hidden performance bottlenecks and clock wasting work that we dont see.
Its something like 100 x clock cycles if a shader needs data from an L2 cache if its not present at L0 that would nornmallly take a clock or 2, thats HUGE. Thats why RDNA introduced GPU L1 cache to relieve pressure and make data transfer shorter silicon distance and faster/ less clock cycles..
Optimising the caches and minimising data distance travelled across the silicon in less clock cycles can make as much of a difference as TF and is so often overlooked by simpler paper specs discussions.
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SplunkyMunkey
Member
I know the gpu handles the graphics side of things but dont u need a strong ssd to handle them assets?It's like some people forgot about the Unreal Engine 5 demo.
PlayStation 5 Unreal Engine 5 demo ran at 1440p 30FPS with dynamic res
Epic's big new tech demo required massive GPU horsepower to pull off and was able to hit a semi-consistent 1440p 30FPS.
High quality textures can make a game look better even at lower resolutions. It's why it be important to have plenty of ram even if your gaming at 1440P.
Kamina
Golden Boy
GAFers are changing their opinions more frequently than their underwear.
I believe the problem isn't the XsX, it's the fact that the GDK needs to scale down to the Xss. Which means diluting everything downwards. This dual config and the disparity of power between the two is going to cripple every XsX game unless it's an exclusive.
HI is absolute proof of this problem. MS wants HI to run on as many gamepass devices as possible and thanks to Xss lower price it automatically becomes the lowest common denominator and therefore drags XsX down with it. If you have a PC your best investment without doubt is a 3080. It will serve you for much longer and instantly obsoletes the XsX. This would apply to PS5 too but they have one huge Ace card which is : exclusives.
We saw what their studios could do with 1.84 flops...wtf is going to happen this gen
HI is absolute proof of this problem. MS wants HI to run on as many gamepass devices as possible and thanks to Xss lower price it automatically becomes the lowest common denominator and therefore drags XsX down with it. If you have a PC your best investment without doubt is a 3080. It will serve you for much longer and instantly obsoletes the XsX. This would apply to PS5 too but they have one huge Ace card which is : exclusives.
We saw what their studios could do with 1.84 flops...wtf is going to happen this gen
phil_t98
#SonyToo
will also add that they say there are no bottle necks there will be as game design changes throughout this gen. there will always be a bottle neck of some kind as if there wasn't there would be no need to upgrade in the future lol
phil_t98
#SonyToo
I believe the problem isn't the XsX, it's the fact that the GDK needs to scale down to the Xss. Which means diluting everything downwards. This dual config and the disparity of power between the two is going to cripple every XsX game unless it's an exclusive.
HI is absolute proof of this problem. MS wants HI to run on as many gamepass devices as possible and thanks to Xss lower price it automatically becomes the lowest common denominator and therefore drags XsX down with it. If you have a PC your best investment without doubt is a 3080. It will serve you for much longer and instantly obsoletes the XsX. This would apply to PS5 too but they have one huge Ace card which is : exclusives.
We saw what their studios could do with 1.84 flops...wtf is going to happen this gen
if you watch the video DF did with the codemasters guy yesterday then downgrading to the XSS was very easy and didn't change anything with the XSX version, said nothing held anything back
phil_t98
#SonyToo
they also have PS4 to deal with to
megreotsugua
Banned
That's not true. Unreal Engine 5 demo on PS5 are using 8k textures but the output resolution is only 1440p upscaled to 4k.
Eliciel
Member
Why is there a subtle sarcasm in the room as soon as the word "Series S" gets mentioned, both start having a very subtle reaction in their faces.
It is really astonishing to observe. Is the Series S a great piece of hardware? Is it? Really?
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Neko Mimi Mode
Member
"Getting schooled with facts", ok mate.
pyrocro
Member
From the horse's mouth
For those who don't watch the clip he just straight up says it "Most powerful console on the market"
and the most affordable console on the market.
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