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DF: Cyberpunk 2077 Next-Gen Patch: The Digital Foundry Verdict

RGB'D

Member
Statistics are statistics. A framerate advantage is a framerate advantage.

It would be pretty strange if a GPU review was prefaced with "if you use VRR on the less performant GPU then the framerate disadvantage is a non issue", but this is where we for now are I guess.
I'm just tired of performance comparisons at this point. It's such a hyper focus and it's pretty apparent that both consoles performance is basically the same. I love my PS5 and Series X and could care less about a .05% difference in performance. Generally if it's anything more than that, it ends up being patched to fix the problem. For this gen, it feels pretty dumb since both consoles are so similar
 

DenchDeckard

Gold Member
Shouldn’t the XSX version be performing better if it used VRS?
You're totally right, I have no idea what is going on with the Xbox version in this game. Ps5 is putting in a great performance, there is no doubt about it. Hopefully CDPR continue to work on both platforms and further optimise like they did with the Witcher 3.

On VRS, I don't really know what kind of performance advantages it should offer as I am clueless haha. Its pretty amazing that it cant really be noticed to the human eye though.

PS5 is showing a framerate advantage and there is absolutely no denying it. Stats are stats.
 

levyjl1988

Member
Players of CyberPunk 2077 will have to wait another whole year to get expansion content, New Game+, a working Metro, and much more enriching content for Night City.
Cd Projekt Red has to cram in a lot of content until GTA VI comes around the corner. So CDProjekt Red has to continually update the game until it is satisfying and reverses that initial reputation destroyer that was launched.
That means fulfilling a lot of wishlists from gamers. They overhaul the hell out of this game to be quote viable.
It took a while to update the hell out of GTA V Online.

That comparison from CyberPunk 2077 to GTA is what fans will always compare due to its open-world nature.
But GTA has a bigger budget, however.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
"But if we are to push the engine hard to find the divide, the ps5 is definitely the console that wins out every time"

This part is not cut out.

That's not where that video cut. The video cut when Tom is about to say:

"But this isn't exactly representative of most of play. For the most part you'll be seeing a 60 FPS line on both sides for shooting, driving and beyond"
 

sircaw

Banned
That's not where that video cut. The video cut when Tom is about to say:

"But this isn't exactly representative of most of play. For the most part you'll be seeing a 60 FPS line on both sides for shooting, driving and beyond"
still do not understand your point, he first starts off by saying the consoles are largely tied? you did see that yer, ?

Both consoles are great but like he said But if we are to push the engine hard to find the divide, the ps5 is definitely the console that wins out every time.

There is nothing to dispute here,
 
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adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
still do not understand your point, he first starts off by saying the consoles are largely tied? you did see that yer, ?

Yes. Did you also read the inflammatory tweet, lol.

Tom is pretty clear that outside of the stress areas there's no difference, and the VGTech video shows there's a 2% difference at most.

Selectively choosing lines without the full context and omitting their second halves is not kosher.
 

sircaw

Banned
Yes. Did you also read the inflammatory tweet, lol.

Tom is pretty clear that outside of the stress areas there's no difference, and the VGTech video shows there's a 2% difference at most.

Selectively choosing lines without the full context and omitting their second halves is not kosher.
So inside the stress area's one performs better than the other?

This ain't rocket science.

One is slightly better than the other, 1% 5% 99% it does not matter.

end of story.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
So inside the stress area's one performs better than the other?

This ain't rocket science.

One is slightly better than the other, 1% 5% 99% it does not matter.

end of story.

Alright man, relax lol. It isn't representative of 99% of the experience, and even that 1% might show different variances, we've already seen places where the SX has better frame rate on the same places in NXGamer video too.

Using it as a form of "gotcha bitch" is a bit too much.

Lol, why so aggressive and who are they referring to? The tweet doesn't seem to be a reply.

It's just one of those twitter accounts that propagates flame wars with selective editing and quoting. They exist for all console fandoms and are best muted or blocked so they don't clutter your feed.
 
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Tchu-Espresso

likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Did Series S push PS5 pretty hard in this game or do we have to wait more time?


Brilliant.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
Yes. Did you also read the inflammatory tweet, lol.

Tom is pretty clear that outside of the stress areas there's no difference, and the VGTech video shows there's a 2% difference at most.

Selectively choosing lines without the full context and omitting their second halves is not kosher.
Huh every single digital foundry comparison features stress tests. They never run average fps tests. They immediately go and find the worst case scenario and get the minimum framerate or lowest dynamic resolution. This is what they have always done.

Alex once literally did a photo comparison to show how cod comes out on top when the ps5 was performing better in gameplay.
 

Arioco

Member
Which rdna2 features are left to exploit? If this game has it the VRR and the VRS, what’s left to help close the gap on the PS5? Mash Shaders, or is the secret gravy sauce on top of the mash?

We have to be realistic here. Systems are close and thats unlikely to change.


Mesh shaders have already been used in The Matrix demo according to its devs and you know how that turned out. 🤔
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
Which rdna2 features are left to exploit? If this game has it the VRR and the VRS, what’s left to help close the gap on the PS5? Mash Shaders, or is the secret gravy sauce on top of the mash?

We have to be realistic here. Systems are close and thats unlikely to change.

VRS gives the least performance increase and VRR is nothing to do with RDNA2 as it was on last gen Xbox consoles.
SFS and Mesh Shaders the hardware assisted version will give huge performance increases, although PS5 does feature primitive shaders which should give similar results to Mesh Shaders.

The best is yet to come.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
VRS gives the least performance increase and VRR is nothing to do with RDNA2 as it was on last gen Xbox consoles.
SFS and Mesh Shaders the hardware assisted version will give huge performance increases, although PS5 does feature primitive shaders which should give similar results to Mesh Shaders.

The best is yet to come.
SFS giving a huge performance increase (especially over PRT, but keep overselling SFS)? Much bigger than VRS? What kind of contrived scenario are you taking where improvement to virtualised texture streaming bring more performance than reducing shading rate? You mentioned performance and not quality mind you.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Simple, the least of the increases we got this gen is in amount of Ram and memory bandwith, SFS is directed precisely at that.
You are still banking on that 2-3x memory bandwidth advantage without a quoted basis of comparison (aka no virtual texture streaming) apparently trivial to obtain. It is getting closer to mid 2022 btw.
Sure… 2-3x advantage over what other consoles can do with their PRT implementation…

Considering how few games pushed Xbox One X and PS4 Pro properly, you are also choosing the wrong comparison in terms of bandwidth improvement to the devs baseline. Memory size fine, but again you mention “performance” not “detail/IQ”.
 
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Shmunter

Member
Huh every single digital foundry comparison features stress tests. They never run average fps tests. They immediately go and find the worst case scenario and get the minimum framerate or lowest dynamic resolution. This is what they have always done.

Alex once literally did a photo comparison to show how cod comes out on top when the ps5 was performing better in gameplay.
Begs to reason to push hardware for comparison, otherwise may a well run Pac-Man on both and conclude the systems are 100% identical because game is locked 60.
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
You are still banking on that 2-3x memory bandwidth advantage without a quoted basis of comparison (aka no virtual texture streaming) apparently trivial to obtain. It is getting closer to mid 2022 btw.
Sure… 2-3x advantage over what other consoles can do with their PRT implementation…

Considering how few games pushed Xbox One X and PS4 Pro properly, you are also choosing the wrong comparison in terms of bandwidth improvement to the devs baseline. Memory size fine, but again you mention “performance” not “detail/IQ”.

PRT was rarely used, having SFS baked into the GDK and the hardware is a different ball game.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
PRT was rarely used, having SFS baked into the GDK and the hardware is a different ball game.
Where do you get these hard stats? What do you think having the feature available in the SDK (the API exposes the feature as it did PRT) does? Virtual texturing/texture streaming schemes have been used for the past 20 years, people were doing partial texture updates / single mip map level streaming on PS2!

Why are you overhyping this so much? First it was VRS tier 2, came and went, now apparently it is SFS, etc… maybe the talk of PS5 throttling and it’s customisations being over engineered pointless bits of propaganda (which urioispy materialised) while on the other side you have been saying the SDK and tools have yet to be used properly for the last year and a half (post launch). Mysteriously the PS5 SDK has also no growth potential and was maximised day 0.
 
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DenchDeckard

Gold Member
Well, obviously that's not Ricky's most accurate prediction, but it could've been worse. Don't you believe me?





And special attention to this one, who used to work for SONY, at Guerrilla no less. 🙄



as an Xbox fan, I like to see people like this get owned. Yes prefer your box by all means, but there’s no need to go full fanboy and that goes for the insane ps fanboys too.

series x is an amazing console, with some strange issues in performance im not clever enough to understand. It has an amazing feature set for its price and there’s no denying it. Even the series S has its a place in my home to accompany it.

same goes for ps5, it’s a brilliant console that in over a year has proven time and time again that it offers incredible performance And trades punches with what is on paper a more powerful box, often beating it in framerate performance.

I suppose I’m more of a pc gamer at heart who leans a little more green rat but I think as I get older Ive just realised that gaming across all platforms is the best option and actually accepting fact AMD giving nods where they are due to every platform is just downright better.

this generation has been rough with hardware manufacturing issues, software launching broken and taking months to get to a solid standard. I hope we can get to a better place soon and enjoy these consoles that are basically tied when it comes to power can be enjoyed fully. They should be launching games that are performing as expected on launch.

I can’t understand how the Xbox is dropping frames over the ps5 version of this game, and I don’t understand how the Xbox is loading the game faster than the ps5. Something doesn’t add up lol.
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
Where do you get these hard stats? What do you think having the feature available in the SDK (the API exposes the feature as it did PRT) does? Virtual texturing/texture streaming schemes have been used for the past 20 years, people were doing partial texture updates / single mip map level streaming on PS2!

Why are you overhyping this so much? First it was VRS tier 2, came and went, now apparently it is SFS, etc… maybe the talk of PS5 throttling and it’s customisations being over engineered pointless bits of propaganda (which urioispy materialised) while on the other side you have been saying the SDK and tools have yet to be used properly for the last year and a half (post launch). Mysteriously the PS5 SDK has also no growth potential and was maximised day 0.

I never mentioned PS5, you are just deflecting as usual, Tier 2 VRS has not gone anywhere, go check the Doom Eternal resolution metrics for proof and what id say about it.
Games take years to make, these features came into the GDK last summer, the results will be in next generation games, just be patient.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
I never mentioned PS5, you are just deflecting as usual, Tier 2 VRS has not gone anywhere, go check the Doom Eternal resolution metrics for proof and what id say about it.
Games take years to make, these features came into the GDK last summer, the results will be in next generation games, just be patient.

No you never mentioned PS5 ever, we would not be able to find screenshots of you doing your bold predictions in this very thread, right?

Came and gone as in mythical trump card came in and did not drastically altered the overall landscape. Now you are over selling another one claiming essentially nobody was doing fine grained texture streaming without it and again putting the use of it years for now. Despite the fact XSX and PS5 were sold to people in 2020. Even if you were right with your performance talk and this wide gap started to manifest properly in late 2023-2024 that would prove a point about the competition’s system architecture choice that you may not like :p.
 
as an Xbox fan, I like to see people like this get owned. Yes prefer your box by all means, but there’s no need to go full fanboy and that goes for the insane ps fanboys too.

series x is an amazing console, with some strange issues in performance im not clever enough to understand. It has an amazing feature set for its price and there’s no denying it. Even the series S has its a place in my home to accompany it.

same goes for ps5, it’s a brilliant console that in over a year has proven time and time again that it offers incredible performance And trades punches with what is on paper a more powerful box, often beating it in framerate performance.

I suppose I’m more of a pc gamer at heart who leans a little more green rat but I think as I get older Ive just realised that gaming across all platforms is the best option and actually accepting fact AMD giving nods where they are due to every platform is just downright better.

this generation has been rough with hardware manufacturing issues, software launching broken and taking months to get to a solid standard. I hope we can get to a better place soon and enjoy these consoles that are basically tied when it comes to power can be enjoyed fully. They should be launching games that are performing as expected on launch.

I can’t understand how the Xbox is dropping frames over the ps5 version of this game, and I don’t understand how the Xbox is loading the game faster than the ps5. Something doesn’t add up lol.
Something always 'doesn't add up' in today's gaming industry. It's really frustrating if not infuriating. Every developer today seems to rush their game out, or at least have a couple major fuck ups when it comes to performance. I don't know what it is. Cyberpunk 2077's next gen patch having frame drops and missing RT reflections (it's clear it was supposed to be in the RT mode as it says "rt reflections and shadows" in the description of the mode IN game. Horizon FW has a sub 1440p, blurry and disappointing performance mode. Dying Light 2 only being 1080p/60, etc. You name the game I'll tell you how it falls short. I honestly think these new consoles are underpowered combined with devs today not putting in the work because they know no matter what their games are selling at record numbers anyway.

If ps5/ series x are struggling to run last gen games at 1440p/60 with high/ultra then maybe it's not the devs fault. Maybe that's why Guerilla, a developer known to graphics prowess made this disappointing performance mode.
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
No you never mentioned PS5 ever, we would not be able to find screenshots of you doing your bold predictions in this very thread, right?

Came and gone as in mythical trump card came in and did not drastically altered the overall landscape. Now you are over selling another one claiming essentially nobody was doing fine grained texture streaming without it and again putting the use of it years for now. Despite the fact XSX and PS5 were sold to people in 2020. Even if you were right with your performance talk and this wide gap started to manifest properly in late 2023-2024 that would prove a point about the competition’s system architecture choice that you may not like :p.

"Mythical trump card" your desperation is becoming more obvious, I gave you a real world example in Doom Eternal that is available now, you can see the metrics, there is nothing "mythical" about it, MS gave a presentation on Tier 2 VRS and it has shown to be correct, they offered a similar presentation on SFS, you want to dismiss that then fine but I'll take the word of the likes of AMD over your rambling thanks.

 
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I wonder what is making the PS5 run faster than the Series X in this game, though.

If the shader throughput and memory bandwidth aren't giving an advantage to Series X, what is there on the PS5 that is giving an advantage on CP2077?

The PS5 has higher triangle output, but the game doesn't seem to be very geometry intensive to me. Is this performance mode pushing resolution too high, and the PS5's higher pixel fillrate is giving it a larger advantage?
It's also not using either console's hardware accelerated I/O, otherwise the loading times would be in the low single digits instead of >10s, so this isn't coming from the PS5's faster I/O. This is using CPU decompression.

CP2077 strikes me as an old-gen engine doing lots of shader work to provide better visuals. It's a game where the Series X should be getting a slight advantage.


Could this be CPU performance deficit on the Series X from running a Hypervisor / VM?







The fact that he cuts off the video right when Tom is about to say that it isn't representative of most of the game lol is pretty amazing and telling lol.
It's okay, man. I'm sure photo mode is faster on the Series X and that will completely even things out.
 

Leyasu

Member
I wonder what is making the PS5 run faster than the Series X in this game, though.

If the shader throughput and memory bandwidth aren't giving an advantage to Series X, what is there on the PS5 that is giving an advantage on CP2077?

The PS5 has higher triangle output, but the game doesn't seem to be very geometry intensive to me. Is this performance mode pushing resolution too high, and the PS5's higher pixel fillrate is giving it a larger advantage?
It's also not using either console's hardware accelerated I/O, otherwise the loading times would be in the low single digits instead of >10s, so this isn't coming from the PS5's faster I/O. This is using CPU decompression.

CP2077 strikes me as an old-gen engine doing lots of shader work to provide better visuals. It's a game where the Series X should be getting a slight advantage.


Could this be CPU performance deficit on the Series X from running a Hypervisor / VM?








It's okay, man. I'm sure photo mode is faster on the Series X and that will completely even things out.
In a video Iwatched on YouTube, a couple of spots looked like it was loading when the frame rate was hitching. I don’t know, I am not a dev so my take is the same as 99.9% of the posters on gaf. Worthless
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
The framerate drops are in CPU heavy areas it's not GPU related or the scaler would dial back the resolution to compensate.
Most theories are last gen engines don't use the decompression block on the Series consoles properly yet.
 
In a video Iwatched on YouTube, a couple of spots looked like it was loading when the frame rate was hitching. I don’t know, I am not a dev so my take is the same as 99.9% of the posters on gaf. Worthless

But the Series X's CPU runs at a higher clock.

It does sound like a CPU + I/O bottleneck, and the cause could be:
- Not using the Series' hardware accelerated I/O path
- CPU + I/O becomes the bottleneck compared to the PS5 due to Microsoft's adoption of a Hypervisor on their architecture, effectively making the Series X miss more frames than the PS5 with a lower clocked CPU.
 
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Leyasu

Member
But the Series X's CPU runs at a higher clock.

It does sound like a CPU + I/O bottleneck, and the cause could be:
- Not using the Series' hardware accelerated I/O path
- CPU + I/O becomes the bottleneck compared to the PS5 due to Microsoft's adoption of a Hypervisor on their architecture, effectively making the Series X miss more frames than the PS5 with a lower clocked CPU.
I am not qualified enough to say yes or no. But it could well be something to do with their software. Weren’t the problems with the game Control ironed out with an update their end? Or am I misremembering?
 
But the Series X's CPU runs at a higher clock.

It does sound like a CPU + I/O bottleneck, and the cause could be:
- Not using the Series' hardware accelerated I/O path
- CPU + I/O becomes the bottleneck compared to the PS5 due to Microsoft's adoption of a Hypervisor on their architecture, effectively making the Series X miss more frames than the PS5 with a lower clocked CPU.
The difference of CPU clocks is negligible (<5%), while PS5 can perform from 10% to 20% faster (~5-10fps).
Game doesn't use PS5 I/O path either.
 
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SomeGit

Member
But the Series X's CPU runs at a higher clock.

It does sound like a CPU + I/O bottleneck, and the cause could be:
- Not using the Series' hardware accelerated I/O path
- CPU + I/O becomes the bottleneck compared to the PS5 due to Microsoft's adoption of a Hypervisor on their architecture, effectively making the Series X miss more frames than the PS5 with a lower clocked CPU.

Both Sony and Microsoft use Hypervisors (or similar) since the Xbox 360 and PS3 eras, you don't get games running to metal anymore.
 
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Lysandros

Member
I wonder what is making the PS5 run faster than the Series X in this game, though.

If the shader throughput and memory bandwidth aren't giving an advantage to Series X, what is there on the PS5 that is giving an advantage on CP2077?

The PS5 has higher triangle output, but the game doesn't seem to be very geometry intensive to me. Is this performance mode pushing resolution too high, and the PS5's higher pixel fillrate is giving it a larger advantage?
It's also not using either console's hardware accelerated I/O, otherwise the loading times would be in the low single digits instead of >10s, so this isn't coming from the PS5's faster I/O. This is using CPU decompression.

CP2077 strikes me as an old-gen engine doing lots of shader work to provide better visuals. It's a game where the Series X should be getting a slight advantage.


Could this be CPU performance deficit on the Series X from running a Hypervisor / VM?








It's okay, man. I'm sure photo mode is faster on the Series X and that will completely even things out.
How can we be sure that XSX' split 560/336 GB/s bandwidth pool (with probable latency penalty) is actually superior to PS5's unified 448 GB/s pool especially in light of The Tourist developers' comments about how they were able reach 8K on PS5 citing memory setup as one of the reasons (besides clocks). I personally i don't think that XSX has an indisputable advantage in that area at all, in games like Control and Skyrim the machines drop as low as each other under heavy alpha stress. Besides, there is also the cache bandwidth side of things to consider which should contribute to the whole system bandwidth/performance.

As to CPU side of things why not listen to the chief software engineer of PS5 a bit:

 
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6502

Member
Getting a few minor graphical bugs and npcs occupying the same space (by vending machines) now but my god, that 30fps is in no way a normal 30 fps, fucking perfect dark on n64 in high res runs smoother. It makes me physically ill.
Thank fuck performance mode is perfect.
 
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Lysandros

Member
The difference of CPU clocks is negligible (<5%), while PS5 can perform from 10% to 20% faster (~5-10fps).
Game doesn't use PS5 I/O path either.
Indeed, there is also the 10% of one core dedicated to I/O processing on XSX side to consider which leave the 'difference' as something like ~2% (very negligible to say the least) even if we completely ignore the inter connect cache latency differences between the CPUs, which i don't think is a wise thing to do if we really want to understand what's going on under the hood by the way...
 
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Arioco

Member
How can we be sure that XSX' split 560/336 GB/s bandwidth pool (with probable latency penalty) is actually superior to PS5's unified 448 GB/s pool


It would be a very stupid decision on MS part if splitting the memory into two pools doesn't provide some kind of advantage. I mean, why bother? I don't think they made that choice just to win the specs war. There must be a real reason, I think. It's true that the delta didn't turn to be what raw number suggested (and many people expected), but I have no idea why, to be honest. But games are always the real benchmark. 🤷‍♂️
 

ethomaz

Banned
It would be a very stupid decision on MS part if splitting the memory into two pools doesn't provide some kind of advantage. I mean, why bother? I don't think they made that choice just to win the specs war. There must be a real reason, I think. It's true that the delta didn't turn to be what raw number suggested (and many people expected), but I have no idea why, to be honest. But games are always the real benchmark. 🤷‍♂️
It doesn't provide any advantage.
It is a cost decision.
320bits bus needs 10GB or 20GB of RAM to works... MS choose to make a Frankenstein to make it works with 16GB of RAM to not make the machines too expensive with more 4GB of RAM.
 
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Lysandros

Member
It would be a very stupid decision on MS part if splitting the memory into two pools doesn't provide some kind of advantage. I mean, why bother? I don't think they made that choice just to win the specs war. There must be a real reason, I think. It's true that the delta didn't turn to be what raw number suggested (and many people expected), but I have no idea why, to be honest. But games are always the real benchmark. 🤷‍♂️
This can wery well give them an advantage in 'some' situations/games/scenes. I am not against this possiblity. But this should also stand true for PS5's setup (we have an actual evidence for this by the way). They made a 'decision', just like how they made a decision as to ROP architecture and squishing more CUs per SA sharing the same 128 Kb of GPU L1 cache. Decisions rarely come without any compromises. I am only challenging the belief in the inherent superiority in bandwidth of XSX (especially in ratio to its compute ceiling) in all scenarios without considering the nuances maybe not apparent in first/shallow glance. I don't think this belief is backed by enough real world result/data, and developer comments. I think we are in need of a bit more scepticism and deeper look in that area, that is all. Assumptions can be a bit of a trap as demonstrated by the highly unrealistic expectations for XSX hardware in the beginning of the generation.
 
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