• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

DF Direct: The PS5

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Feb 22, 2017
2,584
1,754
605
That's what Cerny told them, it's complete nonsense.
Well there is some truth to it, but some people are taking it out of context.

The example cerny gave resulted in the 2 gpus equaling the same tflop performance

So instead of this:

48cus @ 1674mhz = 10.28tflops

Using 36cus @2230mhz = 10.28tflops

Tflops is performance of the vector ALU's , however at higher clockspeeds rasterization performance is higher in and command buffer processing is also faster inline with the clockspeed increase, also L2 and other caches have higher bandwidth at higher clock speed

So while there are benefits in clocking less cus very high, its not completely a free ride the higher the clock the further away the mem is in terms of cycling, so while cerny said the benefits far outweigh the negatives, he is talking about 2 different approaches which result in the same tflops.

Also when comparing the ps5 gpu to the XSX gpu an advantage the xsx has is that it is at a constant performance level, there are no variables like the PS5, we also dont know how the PS5s added 22% clockspeed over the xsx will impact actual performance, we really need a game developer to flat out tell us the performance differences, my gut tells me that xsx GPU will still be about 20% more powerful when you factor in the 25% extra ram bandwidth it has.

I would also be interested to see benchmarks done on a 22% lower clocked GPU with the same tflops as one clocked 22% faster.
 

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
163
159
220
Its fucking stupid isn't it? Lol
What he said was yes which is fucking funny to say since the damn console is a variable system. It isn’t our problem you and others want to interpret the way you want to to be. That’s your issue
 

ClearMind

Report me for console warring (Xbot, Xbro etc.)
Dec 13, 2019
119
276
340
When the multiplatforms comparisons come in, I think it'll be very close. I think alot of games
on X will hold native 4k more often, while ps5 maybe have the same scene drop to 1800p, but we'll need DF zoom lenses just to know how often it occurs. Framerate, lod, texture quality, will likely all be the same or extremely close.
1800p native vs 2160 native is about what you should expect with 10.3 and 12.1. Thats without anything else included.
2160/1800p = 1.2
12.1/10.3=1.17

The actual impact on visuals will be minimal.
 

Romulus

Member
Mar 21, 2019
2,923
3,175
440
I cant get over the fact that the ps5 is a PS4 less powerful than the next Xbox. I'm disappointed.

But it's also 2.5 times as powerful as my PS4 pro, and that truly excites me
2.5x GPU. The CPU is around 4x plus way more bandwidth. Remember the CPU was the big bottleneck. A ps4 pro GPU paired with a zen2 would be alot more capable on its own.
 

LordKasual

Member
Jul 28, 2016
5,545
1,084
430
All i can say is, this generation is going to be interesting. New Xbox is going to be the resident powerhouse. PS5 is going to be the one with the most experimentally different games.

Xbox is going to have games that might have features that PS5 can't run as well....PS5 is going to have exclusives with concepts that literally wont work on Xbox due to the way it handles memory.

Minecraft on xbox is going to have better raytracing. Minecraft on PS5 is going to support chunk loading at literal supersonic speeds.


Honestly, this is really exciting....BOTH consoles are going to be capable of things that the other won't be able to do.

Xbox is getting the edge in the Raytracing revolution, but PS5 is going to actually allow new design concepts.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Feb 22, 2017
2,584
1,754
605
Also where in the PC space has a GPU with 22% higher clocks had any meaningful performance improvement over a gpu with 22% lower clocks but 20% more tflops?

Its seems to be the opposite of the last 10yrs of gpu design
 

LittleBusters

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,723
1,169
425
41
You can tell DF are more impressed with XBox because they can actually rub the hardware with their hands. Sony doesn't show the hardware, so no love from DF.
 

LittleBusters

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,723
1,169
425
41
All i can say is, this generation is going to be interesting. New Xbox is going to be the resident powerhouse. PS5 is going to be the one with the most experimentally different games.

Xbox is going to have games that might have features that PS5 can't run as well....PS5 is going to have exclusives with concepts that literally wont work on Xbox due to the way it handles memory.

Minecraft on xbox is going to have better raytracing. Minecraft on PS5 is going to support chunk loading at literal supersonic speeds.


Honestly, this is really exciting....BOTH consoles are going to be capable of things that the other won't be able to do.

Xbox is getting the edge in the Raytracing revolution, but PS5 is going to actually allow new design concepts.
Please explain what you mean that PS5 will have the 'most experimentally different games'. If anything going by the last couple of years, it seems Sony is going in the direction of morose, beautiful walking simulators while XBox 1st party are very diverse and eye-popping with color. F.e., Bleeding Edge, Cuphead, Ori, Sea of Thieves.
 

Romulus

Member
Mar 21, 2019
2,923
3,175
440
1800p native vs 2160 native is about what you should expect with 10.3 and 12.1. Thats without anything else included.
2160/1800p = 1.2
12.1/10.3=1.17

The actual impact on visuals will be minimal.
Yeah the ps4 and xbox one difference was substantial on the GPU side(40%), and imo having an Xb1 and ps4, I thought the difference was very minimal.

The ps5 and XSX difference is even less and with the common implementation of dynamic resolution, it'll be even harder to tell.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Insane Metal

ClearMind

Report me for console warring (Xbot, Xbro etc.)
Dec 13, 2019
119
276
340
will it actually output at native 1800p (I would prefer this) or will we get messy checkerboarding again?
Depends on the game. Both consoles are extremly powerful and not many devs will be able to take full advantage of them for visuals only.

COD for example I expect both to hit 4K 60 easily maybe even 120fps. they could add something extra to the XBX like better AA if even that but nothing out of this world.

But yes I expect games with checkerboarding to still be a thing which is a good thing because pouring everything into resolution is a waste imo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yakuzakazuya

Dural

Member
Sep 18, 2006
615
404
1,210
Why stop at 9.2TF? Why not go as low as 8TF, 7TF, 6 TF, 5TF or 4TF?
The more demanding the game the lower the TF on the PS5, correct? Is that how it works in your mind?
It was specifically stated that it could drop 10% (1TF) in demanding scenes by Cerny.


You can tell DF are more impressed with XBox because they can actually rub the hardware with their hands. Sony doesn't show the hardware, so no love from DF.
I don't know, that video had about as much spin to make the PS5 seem impressive as I could take.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jigga117

Stuart360

Member
Sep 9, 2018
4,267
7,983
520
Also where in the PC space has a GPU with 22% higher clocks had any meaningful performance improvement over a gpu with 22% lower clocks but 20% more tflops?

Its seems to be the opposite of the last 10yrs of gpu design
You often get more powerful gpu's with lower clocks with Nvidia. My 980ti destroys a 1060, but 1060 has higher clocks. My 980ti matches a 1070, but a 1070 has way higher clocks. You see it all the time with gpu's. People are going to hang on this PS5 higher clocks, like they are with the SSD. There is not much else to hangon for them. Its frustrating but i called it yesterday down to a tee. It will be funny if it frustrates Microsoft as well and they raise the XSx clocks to 2.0ghz or something, just to end the delusion.
 

LittleBusters

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,723
1,169
425
41
You often get more powerful gpu's with lower clocks with Nvidia. My 980ti destroys a 1060, but 1060 has higher clocks. My 980ti matches a 1070, but a 1070 has way higher clocks. You see it all the time with gpu's. People are going to hang on this PS5 higher clocks, like they are with the SSD. There is not much else to hangon for them. Its frustrating but i called it yesterday down to a tee. It will be funny if it frustrates Microsoft as well and they raise the XSx clocks to 2.0ghz or something, just to end the delusion.
So more CUs, lower clocked > less CUs higher clocked?
 

LordKasual

Member
Jul 28, 2016
5,545
1,084
430
Please explain what you mean that PS5 will have the 'most experimentally different games'. If anything going by the last couple of years, it seems Sony is going in the direction of morose, beautiful walking simulators while XBox 1st party are very diverse and eye-popping with color. F.e., Bleeding Edge, Cuphead, Ori, Sea of Thieves.
Based on the DF video in the OP, the changes to bandwidth and memory that Sony is enabling with the PS5 is going to allow concepts in game DESIGN that we literally have not seen yet.

Load times is a really basic way to describe the benefits. It's sounding like developers will almost just not be limited at all by data streaming anymore. It kind of just sounds like it's just a convenience perk, but honestly it could have some significant consequences for exclusives that directly aim to take advantage of this.

Of course, there's still a bottleneck in what you can actually render on the screen, but even still, with this sheer amount of access increase we're still looking at rendering techniques that will change the way scenes look / worlds are designed regardless of a change in horsepower.


Consider that God of War was a game that got praised for not having any loading screens, and the game was literally designed around enabling that.

Consider the entire PS3/360 generation that forced us to fucking walk and listen to some asshole talk just so the game had time to load the next area.

Consider i play FFXV on an SSD on my PC and I STILL avoid fast-travel because it's really fucking annoying.
 
Last edited:

LittleBusters

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,723
1,169
425
41
Based on the DF video in the OP, the changes to bandwidth and memory that Sony is enabling with the PS5 is going to allow concepts in game DESIGN that we literally have not seen yet.

Load times is a really basic way to describe the benefits. It's sounding like developers will almost just not be limited at all by data streaming anymore. It kind of just sounds like it's just a convenience perk, but honestly it could have some significant consequences for exclusives that directly aim to take advantage of this.

Of course, there's still a bottleneck in what you can actually render on the screen, but even still, with this sheer amount of access increase we're still looking at rendering techniques that will change the way scenes look / worlds are designed regardless of a change in horsepower.
You make it sound like XSX's SSD is too slow to allow any of what you're talking about and that MS dropped the ball big time.
 

danhese007

Member
May 6, 2012
3,448
1,590
815
NYC
Please explain what you mean that PS5 will have the 'most experimentally different games'. If anything going by the last couple of years, it seems Sony is going in the direction of morose, beautiful walking simulators while XBox 1st party are very diverse and eye-popping with color. F.e., Bleeding Edge, Cuphead, Ori, Sea of Thieves.
Umm Dreams, Concrete Genie, Tearaway, Gravity Rush, Bound, Astro Bot, Everybody's Golf, MLB, Tomorrow Children, RIGs etc etc The most talked about Sony games are not the most diverse ones because they make some pretty excellent Story driven games which i guess tend to be more popular among gamers. One of my favorite games this generation is Ori.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hayfield

ClearMind

Report me for console warring (Xbot, Xbro etc.)
Dec 13, 2019
119
276
340
It was specifically stated that it could drop 10% (1TF) in demanding scenes by Cerny.
Why would it drop in demanding scenes? That makes no sense.
The exact opposite is what you are looking for with variable clocks. Drop the clock in scenes that are not demanding to let the CPU/GPU rest and push the clocks up when something big happens in the game.
 

LordKasual

Member
Jul 28, 2016
5,545
1,084
430
You make it sound like XSX's SSD is too slow to allow any of what you're talking about and that MS dropped the ball big time.
XSX's SSD will not be "Slow" by any stretch of the word. But the numbers that Sony's custom SSD is putting out absolutely makes it look slow, it makes EVERYTHING look slow. I'm almost having trouble believing it's accurate.

Thats why i said this generation is going to be interesting.

Sony's console absolutely is losing in the horsepower department, but this is a rare case where their secondary innovations are absolutely an edge worth factoring into the big picture.


I've always been one to roll my eyes at gimmicks that get thrown around to try and soften the impact of lower horsepower...but this is a rare case where i'd say it's possibly very much worth the effort they've put into it.
 
Last edited:

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
163
159
220
Why would it drop in demanding scenes? That makes no sense.
The exact opposite is what you are looking for with variable clocks. Drop the clock in scenes that are not demanding to let the CPU/GPU rest and push the clocks up when something big happens in the game.
Brah ask fucking Cerny HE SAID IT in the video. Thats why it is so funny how yall keep responding and the motherfucker said it in the damn briefing. OVERCLOCK means more heat. It can't stay at that consisten level because the machine was designed with 9.2TF in mind. That is why the rumors were all over the damn place until Cerny himself explained..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dural

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
163
159
220
XSX's SSD will not be "Slow" by any stretch of the word. But the numbers that Sony's custom SSD is putting out absolutely makes it look slow, it makes EVERYTHING look slow. I'm almost having trouble believing it's accurate.

Thats why i said this generation is going to be interesting.

Sony's console absolutely is losing in the horsepower department, but this is a rare case where their secondary innovations are absolutely an edge worth factoring into the big picture.


I've always been one to roll my eyes at gimmicks that get thrown around to try and soften the impact of lower horsepower...but this is a rare case where i'd say it's possibly very much worth the effort they've put into it.
You do realize the point of the SSD discussion is more so for the speed of loading. Again explained by Cerny in the video. It isn't going to make a bump in the GPU factor of things. Just not sure if thats what you are actually trying to imply.
 
Last edited:

LordKasual

Member
Jul 28, 2016
5,545
1,084
430
You do realize the point of the SSD discussion is more so for the speed of loading. Again explained by Cerny in the video.
...yeah, what else would it be used for?

The point is that loading has been a bottleneck in game design for a long time now, and both XBSX and PS5 are rightfully addressing it
 
Last edited:

LittleBusters

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,723
1,169
425
41
...yeah, what else would it be used for?
It can be used to extend RAM, just like MS said XSX's SSD can be. However PS5's SSD being 2x faster means that extended RAM pool is faster. However, XSX has more higher-bandwidth GDDR6 RAM to begin with(10GB) so I wonder if this matters.
 

ClearMind

Report me for console warring (Xbot, Xbro etc.)
Dec 13, 2019
119
276
340
So basically the SSD being 2x faster trumps everything.
No, the XBX has clear advantages but the biggest improvements for those consoles are in CPU and hard drive.
With SSD being a new ground in console development and the most interesting part. The PS5 having a 2x times faster SSD is just magnifying that.
 

LittleBusters

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,723
1,169
425
41
No, the XBX has clear advantages but the biggest improvements for those consoles are in CPU and hard drive.
With SSD being a new ground in console development and the most interesting part. The PS5 having a 2x times faster SSD is just magnifying that.
SSD is just the start of the pipeline. The rest of the pipeline is RAM-->GPU-->CPU. Sony's first part is faster, but Microsoft's remaining part of the pipeline is faster. Maybe in the end it's all a wash.
 

Portugeezer

Member
Dec 11, 2008
19,319
1,318
1,270
London
abload.de
When talking about how the ps5 ssd could "revolutionise" game development because it would let devs use the ssd drive like an extra pool of RAM, i wish they would clarify in relation to what, are they comparing it to last gen or the xsx?


Also all this custom ssd hardware and custom audio hardware is some what puzzling, cerny has talked about not having "exotic hardware" and while this hardware may not be hard to develop for, it is still custom and the industry has been moving towards having games and engines be as scalable as possible.
Devs are not going do extra work for PS5 exclusive features, 3rd parties will make solutions which work for all platforms.
Its kinda of contradicts what cerny has said.
Sony also has their own developers who make games for them. They will make use of those features where others fail. But you're right, both versions of GTA6 will be bottlenecked by XSX SSD.
 

MiloPing

Neo Member
Jun 12, 2018
14
16
220
Ive read multiple times on here today that exclusives don’t matter and 95% of games are multiplatform so who cares. Of course if Xbox had them...

What I’ve learned today is we have far less enthusiasts and far more fanboys than I thought
Back in the days, people talks about a game (info etc).. But these day, people arguing about power of the console.. 😴
 
Last edited:

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
163
159
220
Back in the days, people talks about a game (info etc).. But these day, people arguing about power of the console.. 😴
The same can be said for the Master PC race that talked about nothing but power for the last 15 years. Even before the reveal of the XSX Monday.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

cyber69

Member
Sep 21, 2018
1,090
1,613
365
You do realize the point of the SSD discussion is more so for the speed of loading. Again explained by Cerny in the video.
....Maybe the DF video linked in the OP may provide more clarification. The SSD discussion was more so regarding how games are designed fundamentally.

For example, instead of designing a level based on what the player can or can't see. The speed at which the SSD operates allows developers to extend past this limitation. Worlds will be seamless. Instant loading times is just an added feature.
 

ClearMind

Report me for console warring (Xbot, Xbro etc.)
Dec 13, 2019
119
276
340
Brah ask fucking Cerny HE SAID IT in the video. Thats why it is so funny how yall keep responding and the motherfucker said it in the damn briefing. OVERCLOCK means more heat. It can't stay at that consisten level because the machine was designed with 9.2TF in mind. That is why the rumors were all over the damn place until Cerny himself explained..
I just took another look at the Eurogamer article and it confirms what I previously said.
Where did you read that the PS5 clocks down in demanding scenes? / Edit: point me to where Cerny said it.

eurogamer article said:
An internal monitor analyses workloads on both CPU and GPU and adjusts frequencies to match.
Translation: the higher the workload the higher the frequency
 
Last edited:

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Feb 22, 2017
2,584
1,754
605
You often get more powerful gpu's with lower clocks with Nvidia. My 980ti destroys a 1060, but 1060 has higher clocks. My 980ti matches a 1070, but a 1070 has way higher clocks. You see it all the time with gpu's. People are going to hang on this PS5 higher clocks, like they are with the SSD. There is not much else to hangon for them. Its frustrating but i called it yesterday down to a tee. It will be funny if it frustrates Microsoft as well and they raise the XSx clocks to 2.0ghz or something, just to end the delusion.
I actually hope an xbox engineer addresses the issue or at least a game dev does, otherwise we will be hearing that the PS5s higher clock will bring close to xsx right until the first digital foundry face off.

I still dont full understand what sort of performance improvement higherclocks can bring, i wish he showed a tech demo or something demonstrating better performance on a 36cu @ 2230mhz vs 48cus @ 1674mhz

I really do think the performance difference would be negligible.

Come to think of it the best example we have is the x1x vs ps4 pro gpu, where the x1x had the tflop and clockspeed advantage, but the performance difference between the two was pretty much expected based on tflops and memory bandwidth.

Bottom line is I think we will see a similar performance difference as the rtx 2070(ps5) and a 2080 super(XsX).

Cerny said there are other performance metrics on a gpu besides tflops yes there is, but tflops are still the most important metric when comparing the same architecture.
Also if cerny preferred high clocks and narrow so much why didn't he go further in this direction with the ps4 and the pro? They both had rather conservative clocks, infact the ps4 went for a wider approach then the X1.

It really does seem cerny is trying a smoke and mirror show to some extent.
 
Last edited:

LordKasual

Member
Jul 28, 2016
5,545
1,084
430
It can be used to extend RAM, just like MS said XSX's SSD can be. However PS5's SSD being 2x faster means that extended RAM pool is faster. However, XSX has more higher-bandwidth GDDR6 RAM to begin with(10GB) so I wonder if this matters.
That's the big question, i honestly don't know. Even hyping up the PS5's insane speeds and even assuming it completely made up the difference and goes beyond...the next thing is imagining a game that abused these new specs in a way that would actually push those specifications. Either way, it's going to benefit both systems massively.

Honestly? I feel like this is an architecture difference that is going to be more or less "meh" as it relates to multiplatforms....games will likely load a bit faster on PS5 and still look marginally better on XSX.

We probably won't see its true power until console exclusives. I feel the same way about the XSX though, because i feel like Raytracing has massive potential and XSX has the edge there.


So....again, yeah. This is gonna be an interesting generation
 

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
163
159
220
I just took another look at the Eurogamer article and it confirms what I previously said.
Where did you read that the PS5 clocks down in demanding scenes? / Edit: point me to where Cerny said it.


Translation: the higher the workload the higher the frequency
Time stamped
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
Jun 7, 2004
5,926
1,642
1,820
You often get more powerful gpu's with lower clocks with Nvidia. My 980ti destroys a 1060, but 1060 has higher clocks. My 980ti matches a 1070, but a 1070 has way higher clocks. You see it all the time with gpu's. People are going to hang on this PS5 higher clocks, like they are with the SSD. There is not much else to hangon for them. Its frustrating but i called it yesterday down to a tee. It will be funny if it frustrates Microsoft as well and they raise the XSx clocks to 2.0ghz or something, just to end the delusion.
Exactly! Down to the 560gbs memory bandwidth advantage. Things will get ugly in face off.

I don't get the beliefs in Mark Sony. Its not like he never BS to cover his engineering short comings. Remember his ps4pro subtle attacks on xb1x, about half precision doubling the flops count or that you need 8tf for 4k when xb1x had 6tf.

Ps5 was designed not for the gamers, at least not from the choice of hardware needing to meet bom.

Ms showed them up and now Mark has to spin like Don mattrick did
 
Last edited:

ClearMind

Report me for console warring (Xbot, Xbro etc.)
Dec 13, 2019
119
276
340
"When that worst case game arrives it will run at a lower clock speed"
How to interprate, I wonder. Its definitly not about about a singular "demanding scene". It should be about games that tax the PS5 for a long period of time.
 

longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
Jun 7, 2004
5,926
1,642
1,820
"When that worst case game arrives it will run at a lower clock speed"
How to interprate, I wonder. Its definitly not about about a singular "demanding scene". It should be about games that tax the PS5 for a long period of time.
`we fucked up with 36cu choice'

Unless Sony used aio water cooling, don't believe his words about mostly sustained 2.2ghz gpu clocks, in next gen RT games

Then again, if they did use aio, why not choose the 56cu parts instead?
 
Last edited:

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
163
159
220
"When that worst case game arrives it will run at a lower clock speed"
How to interprate, I wonder. Its definitly not about about a singular "demanding scene". It should be about games that tax the PS5 for a long period of time.

Which is why I believe this is more towards exclusives that tax the system as they should. This doesn't mean the games are going to be shit. I am just pointing out what I am hearing him say with spinning the system as a standard 10.28 when it isn't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hayfield

ClearMind

Report me for console warring (Xbot, Xbro etc.)
Dec 13, 2019
119
276
340
`we fucked up with 36cu choice'

Unless Sony used aio water cooling, don't believe his words about mostly sustained 2.2ghz gpu clocks, in next gen RT games

Then again, if they did use aio, why not choose the 56cu parts instead?
I believe Cerny when he says the GPU will be able to run 2.23ghz most of the time. Its just that the GPU has to rest inbetween and we dont know how long it can run at full clock and what kind graphics have to be pushed to demand the full 2.23ghz.
 

ClearMind

Report me for console warring (Xbot, Xbro etc.)
Dec 13, 2019
119
276
340
Which is why I believe this is more towards exclusives that tax the system as they should. This doesn't mean the games are going to be shit. I am just pointing out what I am hearing him say with spinning the system as a standard 10.28 when it isn't.
Yes its not standard, thats why they labeled it variable frequency.
 
Last edited: