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DF Direct: The PS5

reconminicon

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I just need to know the price at this point I always game with a nice headset so I’m super stoked for the audio
Yes I love my audio too. Having good surround sound in game is so immersive. I find it very annoying now playing on TV speakers. (shivers down the spine)
 

Musky_Cheese

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To be fair, if Sony came in and smacked the Series X specs, the Sony fanboys would be going goofy about the specs. But since that isn't the case, you're hearing excuses.
Ive read multiple times on here today that exclusives don’t matter and 95% of games are multiplatform so who cares. Of course if Xbox had them...

What I’ve learned today is we have far less enthusiasts and far more fanboys than I thought
 

O-N-E

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The only thing funny here is Sony's machine, and the fanboys who clung to their blind faith going into this, only to leave disappointed.

As far as raw numbers go; this machine is okay for next gen, at best.

Cerny opened his dialogue with the over complications of the PS3, and then proceeded to talk about the lack of simplicity that the PS5 is; "We're giving you guys power...but under these conditions." That's not simplicity. You want simplicity, then listen to Microsoft's approach; "We're giving you power, full stop!" And that's exactly what they're doing. No stipulations, no ifs, buts or maybes. Just raw, stable, unconstrained, non-fluctuating power for developers to do as they please with it. That's a win, in my book.

A more powerful console... Throw back-compat in with that... Throw Xcloud and game streaming in with that, and I don't see how you can go wrong!

People want to talk about games? We hear the trolls all the time "Xbox has no games!" Well guess who's coming out the gate with hundreds of games from the original Xbox, to the Xbox 360, to the Xbox One, and new games from new (and competent studios) for the Xbox Series X? Yup! Guess who doesn't have games now? No, it's not Xbox.

People like to dress up their hurt, but call a spade a spade!

The Xbox Series X, out the gate is a more powerful console, that supports hundreds of games with backward compatibility, game streaming and cross platform with PC! And for those reasons alone, they have earned my money!

Now, can you kindly please stop moving the goalposts and wear your L on your chest like a man.
My guy, I don't work for Sony. Neither console has launched. There is no "L" to take. You're too invested.

Playstation at its (arguably) worst still outperformed Xbox at its best (PS3 vs 360).

I don't see it playing out differently if we don't even have blunders like 599.99 USD and giant enemy crabs this gen.

And putting all that aside, again, even if the PS5 were to somehow perform like the Wii U, but had the games, I'd still buy it. Because, again, I'm not purchasing stocks, I'm playing games.
 
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Tarkus98

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Ok. Watching the presentation I sort of got what Cerny & co. are trying to do but I lost it after reading all the doomsday talk on here.
This DF video brought it back to me. What I get is they are really going for a paradigm shift in the way data/bandwith is handled and available to the developers, be it RAM or ssd. More efficient handling of RAM. More efficient handling of geometry/culling. Essentially more bang for the buck so to speak.
The boost situation as I understand it is entirely in the hands of the developers, and dependent on power usage, not temperatures i.e. not some weird random throttling, but repeatable and controllable across all consoles. This is maybe the biggest paradigm shift and the hardest to wrap my head around.
What Im getting is that the PS5 will be able to throw massive amounts of data around fast: up on the screen, game/a.i logic, sound etc.
I imagine there will be some impressive games developed with all this in mind, that simply would not be possible on other platforms.

tl;dr Im probably just a Sony fanboy thirsty for some koolaid 😝
You get it. I was waiting for someone else to actually understand what is being done here. It is quite elegant and incredibly unique. People saying it won’t be hitting peak are wrong. If sustained peak levels are needed by the game / developers it will be available and not bouncing all over the place like some presume. This is a new type of boost. Not the same thing that is used on phones and certainly not the same boost as the pro.
Perhaps they should have called it something else to avoid the comparisons and confusion.
 
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danhese007

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People not understanding what was presented to them. No the PS5 is not 9.2TF or 8TF, it is 10.28TF theoretical TF just like XSX is 12.155 theoretical TF.

Variable in this sense does not mean the GPU throttles down and performance of the game suffers. Its not like in mobile SoC where the cpu and gpu throttle up for a couple of seconds then throttle down to save power.

First is

Smart-shift AMD tech. The GPU and CPU no longer have independent fixed power budget. Both processors share a common power budget but of course the GPU will demand more than the CPU. This means that when the CPU is not performing intensive tasks, more power will be pushed into the GPU and when the GPU is not performing intensive task and then the CPU gets more if it needs it. No two games or parts of a game demands the same amount of processing power, this allows for dynamic power management between CPU and GPU for any given moment.

Second is Variable Frequency

The GPU and CPU have a capped frequency that all SoC must be able to hit. 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz (10.28TF performance) for GPU. This is the thermal limit of the designed cooling system. It does not matter what environment you place the system within normal use case, it should be able to handle the heat generated from pushing the SoC to the capped 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz GPU. This means that rather than running the GPU and CPU at a constant frequency while varying the power based on workload, they instead supply both CPU and GPU a constant power, enough to reach 3.5 and 2.23 GHz for GPU and CPU but allow the frequency to change based on workload.

Think of it like dynamic resolution, instead of running the game at 1080p constant and tearing a frame or dropping frame rate, you lower the resolution along any of the axis to maintain framerate.

In essence, PS4 runs at a constant 1.6GHz CPU and 800MHz GPU but the power consumed depends on the game. That is why you hear fan ramp up for some games and not others. With PS5 they pushed the system to a limit and designed the cooling system to handle that limit but the CPU and GPU can control their frequency based on the given workload it is doing. It does not mean PS5 will suddenly drop to 8TF because it over heats. No it means the frequency can drop because the game does not demand much from the SoC.

Hope that helps explain some stuff based on how i as a lay person understands it.
 
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CobraAB

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Cool video, and indeed they highlighted a couple of things that were great during the presentation: audio, and of course ssd.
Im personally a big audiophile, so definitely would like to know more about the sony's solution for that. It seems really great.
Meh. Tflops is all people care about.
 
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Brofist

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Meh. Tflops is all people care about.
Well to be fair PC gamers are paying an extra $300+ to have a gpu with an extra 2 tflops, and assuming these consoles release at a similar price point it's not hard to figure out why it would be a point for most.
 
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CityHunter1981

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I think it is highly amusing, how people try to compare the speeds of both consoles now. Fact is there is just no way to tell what works better until the consoles are released, all the numbers are theoretical numbers and we need to see them running in real-world applications.

It will probably also greatly depend on the developers if they can make more use for example out of the higher clock speed or more CUs. It is also worth to say that you can give some developers the best hardware in the world and they still mess up.
I do not think we will see a big difference in performance in 3rd party games (from good developers) at least not in the first 3 years, because they will probably take the weakest specs in mind when programming a game. The same can also be said abut the sound, I am sure that for the most part only 1st party Sony studios will make use of the PS5 capabilities.

We also shouldn't forget the price point, it was numerous times mentioned in the PS5 reveal, that an affordable cost was always one of the main decision factors, so we will need to see if they will sell both consoles at the same price. Seeing purely the numbers, I would expect that the XBox is a little bit more costly to produce than the PS5, on the other hand, I am sure Microsoft have enough money to loose some money on each sold console.

In the end it also comes down to the games and while Microsoft has acquired some great studios, the games from these studios can be hit or miss, while the first party Sony studios have for the most part an impressive track-record.
 
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Brofist

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Yes no shit it's about the games. This was a spec reveal, people are talking about the specs. When they are released people will go back to talking about the games.
 

vpance

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It does not mean PS5 will suddenly drop to 8TF because it over heats. No it means the frequency can drop because the game does not demand much from the SoC.

Hope that helps explain some stuff based on how i as a lay person understands it.
That's not how I interpreted it.

The system will typically run at max boost. But obviously if you're playing FTL on it it's not going to use the same amount of power it would running GTA6 because the actual utilization is low.

So if you're playing GTA6 during the most demanding scene it's going to throttle itself a few percent to drop power usage by 10%. In other words, they have a cooling solution that runs optimally in all but the above conditions, so the throttling becomes necessary at that point.
 

Dural

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This is a fucking joke, somehow I'm supposed to believe a slower GPU with less compute is actually faster because Mark Cerny said so. We're doing boost, but don't call it boost, it's different! Come on, call it what it is. Sony knew they were slower than MS and did the only thing they could at this point, boost the shit out of the motherfucker and get as close as they could. We're supposed to believe this was the plan all along and something innovative they came up with, it's insane.
 

Sosokrates

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Lol at the other place in thread about this video some sony fanboys are actually trying to peddle the theory that the PS5s high clock speed compensates for its lower cu and tflop count compared to the xsx's GPU, those guys are worse then politicians lol.
 

Dural

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Lol at the other place in thread about this video some sony fanboys are actually trying to peddle the theory that the PS5s high clock speed compensates for its lower cu and tflop count compared to the xsx's GPU, those guys are worse then politicians lol.
That's what Cerny told them, it's complete nonsense.
 
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danhese007

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That's not how I interpreted it.

The system will typically run at max boost. But obviously if you're playing FTL on it it's not going to use the same amount of power it would running GTA6 because the actual utilization is low.

So if you're playing GTA6 during the most demanding scene it's going to throttle itself a few percent to drop power usage by 10%. In other words, they have a cooling solution that runs optimally in all but the above conditions, so the throttling becomes necessary at that point.
No that's not it. Every developer is working under a guaranteed 10.28TF, that being the model SoC Cerny talked about that all SoC must perform like. just like how every developer on PS4 works under a guaranteed 1.8TF GPU. You can't push the system beyond that enough for it throttle down and cause performance issue. If your game demands less it lowers frequency, if your game demands more it increases frequency up to the maximum standard 10.28TF. The thermal design is designed for that as the maximum (of course there is overhead to guarantee a baseline performance based on the environment you physically place the console in).
 
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No that's not it. Every developer is working under a guaranteed 10.28TF just like how every developer on PS4 works under a guaranteed 1.8TF GPU. You can't push the system beyond that enough for it throttle down and cause performance issue. If your game demands less it lowers frequency, if your game demands more it increases frequency up to the maximum standard 10.28TF. The thermal design is designed for that as the maximum (of course there is overhead to guarantee a baseline performance based on the environment you physically place the console in).
I gotta be honest

The way vpance vpance interpreted it is now I did too
 
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Jigga117

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People not understanding what was presented to them. No the PS5 is not 9.2TF or 8TF, it is 10.28TF theoretical TF just like XSX is 12.155 theoretical TF.

Variable in this sense does not mean the GPU throttles down and performance of the game suffers. Its not like in mobile SoC where the cpu and gpu throttle up for a couple of seconds then throttle down to save power.

First is

Smart-shift AMD tech. The GPU and CPU no longer have independent fixed power budget. Both processors share a common power budget but of course the GPU will demand more than the CPU. This means that when the CPU is not performing intensive tasks, more power will be pushed into the GPU and when the GPU is not performing intensive task and then the CPU gets more if it needs it. No two games or parts of a game demands the same amount of processing power, this allows for dynamic power management between CPU and GPU for any given moment.

Second is Variable Frequency

The GPU and CPU have a capped frequency that all SoC must be able to hit. 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz (10.28TF performance) for GPU. This is the thermal limit of the designed cooling system. It does not matter what environment you place the system within normal use case, it should be able to handle the heat generated from pushing the SoC to the capped 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz GPU. This means that rather than running the GPU and CPU at a constant frequency while varying the power based on workload, they instead supply both CPU and GPU a constant power, enough to reach 3.5 and 2.23 GHz for GPU and CPU but allow the frequency to change based on workload.

Think of it like dynamic resolution, instead of running the game at 1080p constant and tearing a frame or dropping frame rate, you lower the resolution along any of the axis to maintain framerate.

In essence, PS4 runs at a constant 1.6GHz CPU and 800MHz GPU but the power consumed depends on the game. That is why you hear fan ramp up for some games and not others. With PS5 they pushed the system to a limit and designed the cooling system to handle that limit but the CPU and GPU can control their frequency based on the given workload it is doing. It does not mean PS5 will suddenly drop to 8TF because it over heats. No it means the frequency can drop because the game does not demand much from the SoC.

Hope that helps explain some stuff based on how i as a lay person understands it.


How your explaining isn't matching up at all with how we heard Cerny himself explain it and what we know with how these things work.
 

Tarkus98

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People not understanding what was presented to them. No the PS5 is not 9.2TF or 8TF, it is 10.28TF theoretical TF just like XSX is 12.155 theoretical TF.

Variable in this sense does not mean the GPU throttles down and performance of the game suffers. Its not like in mobile SoC where the cpu and gpu throttle up for a couple of seconds then throttle down to save power.

First is

Smart-shift AMD tech. The GPU and CPU no longer have independent fixed power budget. Both processors share a common power budget but of course the GPU will demand more than the CPU. This means that when the CPU is not performing intensive tasks, more power will be pushed into the GPU and when the GPU is not performing intensive task and then the CPU gets more if it needs it. No two games or parts of a game demands the same amount of processing power, this allows for dynamic power management between CPU and GPU for any given moment.

Second is Variable Frequency

The GPU and CPU have a capped frequency that all SoC must be able to hit. 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz (10.28TF performance) for GPU. This is the thermal limit of the designed cooling system. It does not matter what environment you place the system within normal use case, it should be able to handle the heat generated from pushing the SoC to the capped 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz GPU. This means that rather than running the GPU and CPU at a constant frequency while varying the power based on workload, they instead supply both CPU and GPU a constant power, enough to reach 3.5 and 2.23 GHz for GPU and CPU but allow the frequency to change based on workload.

Think of it like dynamic resolution, instead of running the game at 1080p constant and tearing a frame or dropping frame rate, you lower the resolution along any of the axis to maintain framerate.

In essence, PS4 runs at a constant 1.6GHz CPU and 800MHz GPU but the power consumed depends on the game. That is why you hear fan ramp up for some games and not others. With PS5 they pushed the system to a limit and designed the cooling system to handle that limit but the CPU and GPU can control their frequency based on the given workload it is doing. It does not mean PS5 will suddenly drop to 8TF because it over heats. No it means the frequency can drop because the game does not demand much from the SoC.

Hope that helps explain some stuff based on how i as a lay person understands it.
Well said and thank you for the detailed explanation. Hopefully this will help more people to understand what they have accomplished here. Quite remarkable really.
 
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People not understanding what was presented to them. No the PS5 is not 9.2TF or 8TF, it is 10.28TF theoretical TF just like XSX is 12.155 theoretical TF.

Variable in this sense does not mean the GPU throttles down and performance of the game suffers. Its not like in mobile SoC where the cpu and gpu throttle up for a couple of seconds then throttle down to save power.

First is

Smart-shift AMD tech. The GPU and CPU no longer have independent fixed power budget. Both processors share a common power budget but of course the GPU will demand more than the CPU. This means that when the CPU is not performing intensive tasks, more power will be pushed into the GPU and when the GPU is not performing intensive task and then the CPU gets more if it needs it. No two games or parts of a game demands the same amount of processing power, this allows for dynamic power management between CPU and GPU for any given moment.

Second is Variable Frequency

The GPU and CPU have a capped frequency that all SoC must be able to hit. 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz (10.28TF performance) for GPU. This is the thermal limit of the designed cooling system. It does not matter what environment you place the system within normal use case, it should be able to handle the heat generated from pushing the SoC to the capped 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz GPU. This means that rather than running the GPU and CPU at a constant frequency while varying the power based on workload, they instead supply both CPU and GPU a constant power, enough to reach 3.5 and 2.23 GHz for GPU and CPU but allow the frequency to change based on workload.

Think of it like dynamic resolution, instead of running the game at 1080p constant and tearing a frame or dropping frame rate, you lower the resolution along any of the axis to maintain framerate.

In essence, PS4 runs at a constant 1.6GHz CPU and 800MHz GPU but the power consumed depends on the game. That is why you hear fan ramp up for some games and not others. With PS5 they pushed the system to a limit and designed the cooling system to handle that limit but the CPU and GPU can control their frequency based on the given workload it is doing. It does not mean PS5 will suddenly drop to 8TF because it over heats. No it means the frequency can drop because the game does not demand much from the SoC.

Hope that helps explain some stuff based on how i as a lay person understands it.
Please watch the video again, they literally stated PS5 GPU have been overclock.

Microsoft could boost XSX GPU to 2ghz too based on that. Remember when Microsoft OC XBO? While Sony already used the headroom by OC it at 2.2GHZ.
 

vpance

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That's how i did first but when you add the smart shit tech, it starts to make sense. They want the console to have a consistent performance but allow it to dynamically adjust power usage and change frequency based on any given workload.
Cerny wouldn't say it typically runs at boost clock if that were true. The whole reason they called it "innovative" is because it's like the reverse of how it is with PC cards.

The Smarttech thing just allows devs to further optimize the power split between CPU and GPU.

Edit: see the presentation vid at 37:34 for his remarks on GPU speed
 
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Moridianae

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This video made me feel a little better, but I still see a glaring performance gap in the specifications.

I'm a simply layman, so I don't really know anything. As Bill O'Reilly used to say "The spinnn... stops right here".

To me, if something is 10.3 and the other is 12.1, there's no real "spin" you can put on that. It is a weaker system, by what? 20%?

Same with the CPU being weaked. I mean, what is the counter argument here? Not being an ass, just looking for knowledge and a better grasp.

Is the SSD somehow capable of offsetting these weaker GPU/CPU levels? It's an impressive piece of tech, to be sure.
 

danhese007

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Please watch the video again, they literally stated PS5 GPU have been overclock.

Microsoft could boost XSX GPU to 2ghz too based on that. Remember when Microsoft OC XBO? While Sony already used the headroom by OC it at 2.2GHZ.
Cool? I'm sure they can but I never mentioned Microsoft at any point. Microsoft and Sony are going for a different design philosophy. Narrow fast vs Wide slow. AMD mentioned at their investors day that they will begin to ship multi Gigahertz GPUs so i guess this is a confirmation that RDNA 2 can clock very high.
 
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Jigga117

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This video made me feel a little better, but I still see a glaring performance gap in the specifications.

I'm a simply layman, so I don't really know anything. As Bill O'Reilly used to say "The spinnn... stops right here".

To me, if something is 10.3 and the other is 12.1, there's no real "spin" you can put on that. It is a weaker system, by what? 20%?

Same with the CPU being weaked. I mean, what is the counter argument here? Not being an ass, just looking for knowledge and a better grasp.

Is the SSD somehow capable of offsetting these weaker GPU/CPU levels? It's an impressive piece of tech, to be sure.
Except based per game it can be even lower basically down to 9.2TF
 
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danhese007

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Except based per game it can be even lower basically down to 9.2TF
Try down to 1TF in applications that don't need the frequency super high. When they said variable, they did not give a range meaning it can go lower than 10.28TF all the way down.
 
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cyber69

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After finishing the vid, the biggest question mark remaining for me is the Storage expansion

It’s gonna take a specialized pci 4.0 nvme drive to fit in the PS5, right? That can’t be cheap

Hate to say it but I might prefer MS’ solution here
The PS5 will allow for any NVME drive To plug in play granted it meets the correct specifications (right now, no off the shelf nvme drive meets these speed requirements). MS solution is actually more proprietary based on the form factor.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Digital Foundry have made a great, long analysis/explanatory video that made me digest 50% of that Mark Cerny crazy tech talk. I'm appreciating PS5 a lot more now, and it seems way more innovative than brute forcing. Take it like:

PS5: Nissan GT-R NISMO (600hp)
XSX: Dodge Challenger Hellcat (707hp)

Gearheads will understand what does that mean.
 
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cyber69

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Digital Foundry have made a great, long analysis/explanatory video that made me digest 50% of that Mark Cerny crazy tech talk. I'm appreciating PS5 a lot more now, actually and it seems way more innovative than brute forcing. Take it like:

PS5: Nissan GT-R NISMO (600hp)
XSX: Dodge Challenger Hellcat (707hp)

Gearheads will understand what does that mean.
GT-R is a track monster. Dodge Challenger can only go straight.
 

ClearMind

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Except based per game it can be even lower basically down to 9.2TF
Why stop at 9.2TF? Why not go as low as 8TF, 7TF, 6TF, 5TF or 4TF?
The more demanding the game the lower the TF on the PS5, correct? Is that how it works in your mind?
 
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Romulus

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When the multiplatforms comparisons come in, I think it'll be very close. I think alot of games
on X will hold native 4k more often, while ps5 maybe have the same scene drop to 1800p, but we'll need DF zoom lenses just to know how often it occurs. Framerate, lod, texture quality, will likely all be the same or extremely close.
 
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When the multiplatforms comparisons come in, I think it'll be very close. I think alot of games
on X will hold native 4k more often, while ps5 maybe have the same scene drop to 1800p, but we'll need DF zoom lenses just to know how often it occurs. Framerate, lod, texture quality, will likely all be the same or extremely close.
I’m curious to see if it’s resolution or framers that will fluctuate more on PS5 compared to XsX
 
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Jigga117

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Based on everything Cerny and how that “boost” to 10.28 works is if a game isn’t as intensive to run. Meaning a scenario god of war PS5 will either not run at the “boost” 10.28TF and needs to stay at 9.2TF. See the problem is some of you accepted this is a 10.28 machine. When you pay attention to the explanation for the variable this machine will not stay locked like the XboxSX. Not because it doesn’t need the boost as you say, because it can’t maintain it at that level at all times. It will be based on a game to game bases. This I believe will actually affect exclusives more than multiplatform.
 

Xenon

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Unless SSDs can download fps XBSX will always outperform the PS5. And as far as multiplats it's going to be a no-brainer who's going to have the better performance. But I am interested in seeing what Sony can do with the ability to streaming memory directly on exclusives. But I don't expect to see that until the second or third generation of games. Well there might be a release game that focuses on that but more often than not they're Tech demos are rarely very good
 

Romulus

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I’m curious to see if it’s resolution or framers that will fluctuate more on PS5 compared to XsX
Resolution for sure. Dynamic resolution is a thing to maintain it. Looking at the specs, I think 4k 60fps will be the standard, and theyll just create a scaler for ps5 to maintain the fps by dropping resolution. Not in all cases of course. Even if it drops to 1600p etc for a few intense scenes, most won't even know it.
 
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