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(DF) Quake on Sega Saturn - the impossible port

c0de

Member
Sure, I'll just drop down $100 + shipping for that used Saturn, $40 dollars for Bio Hazard, another $50 for a regional cartridge and an additional $200+ for some nice capturing hardware just so I can make a post on NeoGAF with some scanlined images :p

But really, I am not going to go to that extreme when a few screenshots from SSF can still be suffice. Though I have thought about buying a Japanese model Saturn (since they seem to be the cheapest) as well as a regional cartridge.

The screenshots look like from yabause, to be honest.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
The first retro 3D fighting game DF definitely has to be Virtua Fighter: arcade vs. 32X vs. Saturn vs. Saturn Remix vs. PC, plus the PS2 anniversary remake for the hell of it.

Another Saturn exclusive I'd love to see analysed is Goiken Muyou: Anarchy in the Nippon, a VF-style game made by people who left Sega's Saturn VF2 team to make their own game. It might be the most technically ambitious 3D fighting game on Saturn (a little too ambitious, in fact, as you're occasionally hit with a lot of flicker).
 

element

Member
It is a marvel what Lobotomy did with the port of Quake. Erza Dreisbach did some insane things and then went on to be the lead on Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance which was amazing on PS2 hardware at the time.

Having Death Tank unlock with a safe from Duke Nukem 3D and Quake was also an awesome bonus!
 
My favorite thing about this quote is how they are calling the PS1 the PSX lol. I always tell people that is what the PS1 was referred as but most think I'm making it up or it wasn't that popular or whatever.

Great video though. Can't help but love retro

My theory is that most of these people are just plain too young. PSX was like the common name of that device until the mid 00s.
 

Timu

Member
Ugh, emulator shots.

If I had the Saturn version of RE I could had done the comparison since I already have a capture card that captures in 240p RGB.
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
My favorite thing about this quote is how they are calling the PS1 the PSX lol. I always tell people that is what the PS1 was referred as but most think I'm making it up or it wasn't that popular or whatever.

Great video though. Can't help but love retro

The system was abbreviated the PSX because if I recall correctly the codename of the hardware was Playstation-X.

I still use "PSX" to this day.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Ugh, emulator shots.

If I had the Saturn version of RE I could had done the comparison since I already have a capture card that captures in 240p RGB.
I do have a copy of Biohazard on Saturn. Might have to take a closer look at the models myself. I suppose I could do a video on that one at some point.
 

Timu

Member
I do have a copy of Biohazard on Saturn. Might have to take a closer look at the models myself. I suppose I could do a video on that one at some point.
Yeah you should, that would be pretty neat to see how it compares to the PS1 version.
 

HerjansEagleFeeder

Gold Member
Also...

NARb.jpg

giphy.gif

serveimage


No?
 

Bog

Junior Ace
My favorite thing about this quote is how they are calling the PS1 the PSX lol. I always tell people that is what the PS1 was referred as but most think I'm making it up or it wasn't that popular or whatever.

Great video though. Can't help but love retro

I still refer to it as PSX.
 
Sure, I'll just drop down $100 + shipping for that used Saturn, $40 dollars for Bio Hazard, another $50 for a regional cartridge and an additional $200+ for some nice capturing hardware just so I can make a post on NeoGAF with some scanlined images :p

Sorry dude, but yes. That's better than spreading disinformation. It's doing a disservice to the community, that can last for years, by pawning off inaccurate emulator screenshots, especially of 3D games, as what a game looked like on real hardware.

No apologies.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
Demanding someone spend hundreds of dollars on a capture kit for the sake of a casual conversation on a message board might be a tiny bit unreasonable.
 

c0de

Member
Demanding someone spend hundreds of dollars on a capture kit for the sake of a casual conversation on a message board might be a tiny bit unreasonable.

Yes, that's too much but the pictures worth a few replies already have a potential of not being accurate.
That said, google images results also show that the faces are somewhat weird.
 
Demanding someone spend hundreds of dollars on a capture kit for the sake of a casual conversation on a message board might be a tiny bit unreasonable.

NeoGAF is influential. At a minimum, that puts a burden on us to at least clarify emphatically what is emulated versus real. Even better, to use real hardware where possible (or to partner with those who can, and that can be done through the community...it is a benefit of our community). Emulators can be extremely inaccurate.

All the effort that Jeremy Parish is going to in the NES/Gameboy realm for the sake of accuracy is admirable. The potential for error and miscommunication is immensely higher with 32-bit platforms, where emulator results are far more misleading than in the 8-bit realm.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
So here's a shot from my Saturn (with scanlines because why not)

YDRb.png


The resolution is low enough that it's not really possible to see just how much the faces are distorted but you can still see that they aren't quite right.
 

c0de

Member
So here's a shot from my Saturn (with scanlines because why not)

YDRb.png


The resolution is low enough that it's not really possible to see just how much the faces are distorted but you can still see that they aren't quite right.

Oh yes, that does look like someone didn't manage to make proper faces with quads.
 
You forgot to mention that the characters look like shit, like they're unlit or something. Still a truly impressive feat given that other developers struggled to get even Doom running on the Saturn.
IIRC, Doom was actually running much better initially on Saturn... but Carmack disliked the look of the hardware based renderer (something about the lack of perspective correction?) and told them to use a software renderer instead.
 

c0de

Member
IIRC, Doom was actually running much better initially on Saturn... but Carmack disliked the look of the hardware based renderer (something about the lack of perspective correction?) and told them to use a software renderer instead.

What?!
 
I and a couple others did a few comparisons for the different versions of Resident Evil in a Sega Saturn games at 4K thread:

Saturn vs PS1: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=191962875&postcount=226
Saturn vs PS1 vs NDS: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=192074264&postcount=289
Saturn vs PS1 vs NDS part 2: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=192095552&postcount=295



The poor Saturn version had issues with keeping the faces in alignment.

People really over look how much technique can over come hardware limitations. The DS isn't that much more powerful than the PS1, but look at how good the model looks compared to it. Developers are just getting better at making 3D games and applying it to old hardware. Even at a low resolution, you can tell Chris's face look so much better.
 
I haven't had a chance to tell you John but this has been one the best video's I have seen in a long time. Great idea and I didn't know any of that about this particular port. Very impressive.
 
I'm tempted to pick up a copy of this to play. $50 for what amounts to a bad version of quake though..

I went to my homecountry in May, while I was there I wrote down a list of SS games not released in Japan (cause I was looking for Bubble Bobble/Rainbow Island)
I found it and I bought other 2 games from the same seller to maximize the delivery fees: one of them is... Quake :)

Now after this amazing video I wanna play Quake so much, need to hurry up in finding an Action Replay :D
 
I haven't had a chance to tell you John but this has been one the best video's I have seen in a long time. Great idea and I didn't know any of that about this particular port. Very impressive.

But still, yeah... fucking awesome video.

More Retro DF pleeaaaaaaaaaase.
 
alright i bit on a very good copy for $50. I had an ebay gift card from the recent gamestop flips. will basically have paid about $20 out of pocket for it.
 
Oh shit I'd asked about this too. Yeah, it was low-res 240p, I believe he mentioned it had the gouraud shading a la Fighting Vipers/Fighters Megamix.

The biggest problem with the game (aside from the 3D backgrounds) was doing the collision/inverse kinematics stuff; the stages with multiple floor heights would have been a real bear, compared to a game where you're just fighting on a flat surface.

Fighters Megamix had a VF3 stage but they made the ground flat.
Characters also had most of their VF3 moves which was awesome and made the VF3 cancellation a bit easier to bear.

Ok, I will take your word for it :)

It was. When going through the door after the corridor where the dogs jump through the windows for example.
Now that I think about it, I think the characters in Megamix had the same issue, it was really noticeable in the post-fight close ups.
Can't check since I'm on my phone but I'm pretty sure.
 

sn0man

Member
Oh shit I'd asked about this too. Yeah, it was low-res 240p, I believe he mentioned it had the gouraud shading a la Fighting Vipers/Fighters Megamix.

The biggest problem with the game (aside from the 3D backgrounds) was doing the collision/inverse kinematics stuff; the stages with multiple floor heights would have been a real bear, compared to a game where you're just fighting on a flat surface.

For so long that is the direction I hoped they took with the series. Focus on physical systems to augment gameplay: fluid physics for standing in water reducing kick speed and strength, sand and dirt for reduced friction inducing more stumbling and stabilizing reducing reaction, use elevation to get increased leverage or add in different less blockable sprites.

Maybe controversial but remove jumping over another character unless elevation allowed it.

They went another direction and they made a solid game VF4 so I can't fault them.

They could still go that direction, add some easier to simulate flare like clothes that get dirty and worn. Make the sun or wind obfuscate the characters vision so they have to cover their eyes as they fight. Obviously now with Neo/Xbone1.1 maybe focus on 1080p but always 60fps.
 
The screenshots look like from yabause, to be honest.

The second batch came from the most recent version of SSF, the high resolution images came from Yabause.

Sorry dude, but yes. That's better than spreading disinformation. It's doing a disservice to the community, that can last for years, by pawning off inaccurate emulator screenshots, especially of 3D games, as what a game looked like on real hardware.

No apologies.

I do mark my screen grabs as emulator screenshots, so I'm not trying to pass off any disinformation. And I was trying to get a comparison of the actual game models, not what they look like hidden behind low resolutions and scanlines. But even using an emulator like Yabause (which is not a great emulator at all) it is still hard to do as it distorts the game models. I'm sure there are a way to export the models out of the game and into a 3D program. But that seems like too much work.



People really over look how much technique can over come hardware limitations. The DS isn't that much more powerful than the PS1, but look at how good the model looks compared to it. Developers are just getting better at making 3D games and applying it to old hardware. Even at a low resolution, you can tell Chris's face look so much better.

I'd say that both machines are similarly matched in many ways. The Nintendo DS does have an ARM CPU that runs at twice the clock speed of the PS1's and does have newer feature sets to it, but the PS1 has a dedicated GPU unlike the NDS. The DS also have a secondary ARM CPU at 33mhz and roughly about twice as much system RAM that isn't bottle necked by a small texture cache like the N64. Some of the DS games have some really impressive textures when viewed in higher resolutions.

The 3DS does also have texture/ perspective correction built into the hardware, so you don't really have issues with swimming textures and shaky polygons that you would find on old older 32bit hardware and DOS era PC games, but the DS lacks any filtering or AA, which I think was intentional because of the touch screen. But the polygons look much more "solid" on the DS.

But Resident Evil on the DS does show hos much better and more efficient character modeling techniques have become since the PS1 days. There are a lot less wasted polygons, and less emphasis on those weird looking "ball joints" that used to be so common in early '90s CG and games.

Oh yes, that does look like someone didn't manage to make proper faces with quads.

I don;t think it has anything to do with the modelers, it seems to be more about the hardware trying to render so many quads so close together and not being able to piece them together in proper alignment.

Also, I tried using the XRGB's zoom function (which definitely reveals image noise as well)...



...another one

cERb.png
eERb.png

Great screenshots. Jill has an anime face in the first screenshot and not so much in the second one.

I don't know how this thread jumped off topic to Resident Evil. But it did. I think some of the RE games would make a really good retro comparison video (RE1, RE2, RE4?) and so would Tomb Raider 1.
 
I don't know how this thread jumped off topic to Resident Evil. But it did. I think some of the RE games would make a really good retro comparison video (RE1, RE2, RE4?) and so would Tomb Raider 1.

My fault for bringing it up, but it was in response to a Tomb Raider post which had already derailed the thread :p
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Yeah, it was running full screen at full speed too(60fps even) according to the programmer, Jim Bagley.
Wait, what? It was running that smoothly?!

Man, I hate affine texture mapping as well but...that would be an ok sacrifice to make. Heck, at the time, there weren't even any ways to play Doom at 60fps. The PC version was capped at 35.
 

dogen

Member
Wait, what? It was running that smoothly?!

Man, I hate affine texture mapping as well but...that would be an ok sacrifice to make. Heck, at the time, there weren't even any ways to play Doom at 60fps. The PC version was capped at 35.

Yeah
http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/in...rvg-interviews-jim-bagley&catid=91&Itemid=160


initially, I wanted to use the Saturn's hardware to it's max potential, and wrote a render engine to display the PC levels drawing the walls with the GPU, the problem I came across, was apparently John Carmack wasn't happy about this, he wanted it to look exactly the same as the PC version, but it looked a lot nicer, and was running full screen at 60fps, he said it had to be drawn using the CPU, and not the GPU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHtq4qWxRM

Also, according to this interview, Romero was actually on vacation when it was sent to id for approval(he was the one who normally handled this stuff). He later said that if he saw it running that well he would've been amazed. He also said he would've asked him to port it back to pc, but I'm not sure what exactly sure he meant by that.

They start talking about it at 41:28.
 
That is really insane that Doom could have been running at 60fps on the Saturn, but Carmack didn't like it because of all the texture warping and artifacts. It makes sense why he was avoiding using polygons by using a raycasting engine for Wolfenstein and a sector based BSP engine for Doom, as those games never suffered from warping textures. But on a system like the Saturn, using quads made more sense, Duke Nukem 3D worked better this way (the PC version used an engine similar to Doom) and of course Quake went in that direction too, even though Quake was already 3D to begin with.

Man, what could have been.
 
Alright, I think the SSF and actual-console shots exonerate the Yabause ones - there's definitely some vertex swimming going on, even without Yabause's inaccuracies getting in the way. Fair enough, then.
 
Just watched the video.

Would like more technical focus in any future ones. And labeling of video source when stitching back and forth between them.

Nice work though!
 

Daingurse

Member
This video actually made me pick up Quake 1 for the first time on GOG. Always was a bit curious about the Quake series, but had never played anything besides Quake 3 Arena. But the aesthetics of the first Quake in that video were too interesting. I didnt know it was so different from Quake 2 onwards. Glad I picked it up, super lttp with this one lol. Thanks for peaking my curiosity Dark!
 
My favorite thing about this quote is how they are calling the PS1 the PSX lol. I always tell people that is what the PS1 was referred as but most think I'm making it up or it wasn't that popular or whatever.

Great video though. Can't help but love retro

Yeah, I still can't get used to PS1 or even PSOne.

It was the PSX.
 

Sho Nuff

Banned
For so long that is the direction I hoped they took with the series. Focus on physical systems to augment gameplay: fluid physics for standing in water reducing kick speed and strength, sand and dirt for reduced friction inducing more stumbling and stabilizing reducing reaction, use elevation to get increased leverage or add in different less blockable sprites.

Maybe controversial but remove jumping over another character unless elevation allowed it.

They went another direction and they made a solid game VF4 so I can't fault them.

They could still go that direction, add some easier to simulate flare like clothes that get dirty and worn. Make the sun or wind obfuscate the characters vision so they have to cover their eyes as they fight. Obviously now with Neo/Xbone1.1 maybe focus on 1080p but always 60fps.

Yeah, I always loved the stage undulation and thought that was the absolute sickest thing ever...and then people wound up only playing in the flat square Akira stage. LAME.
 
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